just under 3.2 at lower t14 (3.3 median) how screwed am I? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I have OCIs coming up and even though I have ties to NW, where I'll be applying, a biglaw job in NY is what I'm hoping for. Decent UG grades at a pretty decent school and really solid work experience in the time between. What do you guys put my odds at for both (OCI and the NW)?

[mvp99]

I feel like you should be more specific as to the school because 3.2 at some t14 equals (almost certainly) no big law.

[toothbrush]

I feel like you should be more specific as to the school because 3.2 at some t14 equals (almost certainly) no big law.

Also because some schools say it's a 3.3 and it's really closer to a 3.5 (cornell).

[Nebby]

I feel like you should be more specific as to the school because 3.2 at some t14 equals (almost certainly) no big law.

This isn't true.

[Anonymous User]

OP here, I'm at Cornell. Also does it help that I am a URM?

[rad lulz]

.

[toothbrush]

When you say NW do you mean Cali? I think it may differ between NW (Seattle) and NW (Cali). Are you in CA or NY or elsewhere this summer? I think you need to bid the right firms high - speak with the CSO and figure out which are flexible firms and make sure you bid all of them correctly. I would go heavy NY even though you're from NW. Mass mail Cali/NW (whatever you mean) starting July 1. See relevant mass mail threads.

You are going to have to bust ass to get a job. I have heard of people getting jobs at/around/slightly below median. I think, however, that you may be way in the bottom 1/3. Cornell median is ~3.45.

[Anonymous User]

OP again. I'm a (SE)AA male from OR/WA. Not sure if the SE part matters

[Anonymous User]

OP. Also, not in the NW this summer. Doing an internship in China. Hoping to do some type of intl work and my work expereience is pretty much all intl stuff as well, and not just teaching English in China.

[BruceWayne]

Contrary to what a lot of non URMS believe, being a URM really doesn't make a difference for the people that really need a boost--i.e. those below median (like you). It does help when you are above median. The main thing it does is turn say a normally Shearman & Sterling level rank into a Covington rank. But if you're below median it's not helpful at all. Hell it may even be a negative. It's not like law school admissions.

Edit it sounds like you're Asian. That's not URM for law school admission purposes. But to tell you the truth that's actually a lot better than being Black or Latino...IF you can speak Mandarin Chinese or one of the other in demand Asian languages. Being fluent in Mandarin Chinese is a huge deal. I know people who had mediocre grades/would never have gotten a big firm job otherwise but because they could speak Mandarin Chinese they got tip top firms in Hong Kong or even the U.S. if the firm had a need for that in their office. I think Mandarin Chinese speaker + any top 14 is golden even ITE--which is really saying something the way things have gotten.

[rad lulz]

.

[dead head]

OP again. I'm a (SE)AA male from OR/WA. Not sure if the SE part matters

AA typically means African American, so the SE part certainly matters if you actually mean South East Asian American. And while being Asian doesn't really matter from a law-school admissions perspective, law firms mainly care about being able to check off some diversity box, so any kind of diversity does help. It's unlikely to help enough to make a big difference to you, though.

And while Mandarin is an attractive skill that employers look for, SE Asian languages are really not in demand at the biglaw level, especially Singapore is the regional hub.

[Anonymous User]

OP. My bad on the AA mess up. I speak Mandarin pretty well, but I can't say I'm too familiar with all the legal jargon and people at my firm here in China get so tired of speaking slow to me that they'd rather switch to English. My career counselor seems to think that me working at a regional firm in SE asia next summer, since I have connections out there that would get me a job, and then staying out there for a couple few years (2-4) after graduation would be a good way to avoid the mess of grades and get into international work, but I don't like the idea of living in some bumfuck country getting paid less than most barristas here in the states, especially when I'm going to have some hefty loans to pay off. Do you guys think that's sound advice, would employers still want look at my grades if I've got 2 or 3 years experience at a SE Asian firm?

[dead head]

My career counselor seems to think that me working at a regional firm in SE asia next summer, since I have connections out there that would get me a job, and then staying out there for a couple few years (2-4) after graduation would be a good way to avoid the mess of grades and get into international work, but I don't like the idea of living in some bumfuck country getting paid less than most barristas here in the states, especially when I'm going to have some hefty loans to pay off. Do you guys think that's sound advice, would employers still want look at my grades if I've got 2 or 3 years experience at a SE Asian firm?

I think you are probably overestimating how much baristas get paid and/or overestimating the cost of living reasonably in SE Asia, but that's very tangential.

I honestly don't see what SE Asian experience will bring to the table for US employers. Chinese language skills and firm experience will be much more transportable, in my opinion, while SE Asian experience doesn't mean a lot since regional deals are likely to go through English-speaking Singapore. Is anyone really going to care that you speak Thai/Bahasa/Vietnamese, let alone a more useless language? I doubt it. And look at the bios of lawyers at non-Singaporean SE Asia biglaw offices. Almost all of them are locally trained lawyers that have maybe done an LLM in a common law jurisdiction, but who likely practice mainly local law; this suggests there's not much of a market for what you'll be bringing to the table. I could be wrong, but I would certainly talk to the people you're connected with to see what they think.

[Anonymous User]

OP. My bad on the AA mess up. I speak Mandarin pretty well, but I can't say I'm too familiar with all the legal jargon and people at my firm here in China get so tired of speaking slow to me that they'd rather switch to English. My career counselor seems to think that me working at a regional firm in SE asia next summer, since I have connections out there that would get me a job, and then staying out there for a couple few years (2-4) after graduation would be a good way to avoid the mess of grades and get into international work, but I don't like the idea of living in some bumfuck country getting paid less than most barristas here in the states, especially when I'm going to have some hefty loans to pay off. Do you guys think that's sound advice, would employers still want look at my grades if I've got 2 or 3 years experience at a SE Asian firm?

It sounds like your career counselor is leading you astray. Brush up on your mandarin skills, get a language partner while you are there, read contracts in your free time, do whatever it takes over the next two months. Forget the SE Asia idea. Message me for more.

[Anonymous User]

In re PNW: Grades aren't the end all be all for PNW firms. They can be idiosyncratic. The biggest thing they care about is that you clearly want to be there, because they want to convert their SAs into associates and have relatively lower leverage. If you have a good backstory and they like you they might be interested despite grades (or, then again, they might not, but I cannot quantify your level of screwedness). They might even be *more* interested (to a point) in you rather than someone else because they're potentially more likely to suspect they aren't wasting their time interviewing a top 10% kid who's just going to take the most prestigious NYC offer he gets anyway. I wouldn't exaggerate that effect, but it's not just grades that will get you the interviews and offers there, and it's crucial to interview well there as opposed to, e.g., NYC with good grades.

You also have an advantage in that most of these firms won't be at your OCI (not sure who goes to Cornell, but I'm guessing no more than PC/K&L/DWT if even that, assuming your interest is Seattle, and probably nobody at all for Portland?). Try to plan to be in sea/pdx in between your internship and OCI at Cornell. Mass mail all the firms you're interested in (and even others, never hurts to get additional interviews + offers). If you end up with offers from below-market firms in sea/pdx, and firms paying similar NY salaries, your dollar will obviously go further in the PNW; and you'll have backups if nothing in NYC pans out. This is probably more or less similar to what everyone says in the mass mail threads generally, but I did it in the PNW with some success (note my grades were quite good, but classmates with lower grades ultimately did better overall than I did in the PNW).

Anyway, it's not outside the realm of possibility and given your potential struggles in NYC I'd definitely advise giving the PNW a shot.

Also,

When you say NW do you mean Cali?

who calls California the "northwest"?

[igo2northwestern]

The main thing it does is turn say a normally Shearman & Sterling level rank into a Covington rank. But if you're below median it's not helpful at all.

I agree with the general benefit it confers above median, but I am very sure that it does not bring the candidate from Shearman to Covington. I assume you're referring to Shearman NY and Covington DC.

[Anonymous User]

Anonymous because the info is personal. I'm an SA at a very good and selective NYC firm. It definitely seems like most of the AA's are from lower ranked schools than most of the other SA's. Logically, it would stand to reason that this is because the firm couldn't get AA's from the t-14. It's no secret that there's a profound underrepresentation of AA's in big law. You should also know, OP, and anyone else reading this that the most recently available data shows that nationally over 50% of AA's are in the bottom quartile. This isn't meant to start a debate, but only to say that you shouldn't look at the regular data when selecting firms. Being around median you are likely going to be ranked above most AA's, which when factored in with the fact that AA's are already underrepresented in the t-14 - you don't realize how valuable of an asset you are as firms (especially profitable firms) take diversity VERY SERIOUSLY. The reason I specify profitable is because historically when businesses start to struggle, social progression normally goes out the window. In profitable times social progression increases.

OP, the best thing you can do for yourself is SMILE A LOT and be friendly. People will want to hire you as long as you aren't a creeper. Still mass mail, and do diversity fairs, but you're in a GOOD POSITION.

[hichvichwoh]

Anonymous because the info is personal. I'm an SA at a very good and selective NYC firm. It definitely seems like most of the AA's are from lower ranked schools than most of the other SA's. Logically, it would stand to reason that this is because the firm couldn't get AA's from the t-14. It's no secret that there's a profound underrepresentation of AA's in big law. You should also know, OP, and anyone else reading this that the most recently available data shows that nationally over 50% of AA's are in the bottom quartile. This isn't meant to start a debate, but only to say that you shouldn't look at the regular data when selecting firms. Being around median you are likely going to be ranked above most AA's, which when factored in with the fact that AA's are already underrepresented in the t-14 - you don't realize how valuable of an asset you are as firms (especially profitable firms) take diversity VERY SERIOUSLY. The reason I specify profitable is because historically when businesses start to struggle, social progression normally goes out the window. In profitable times social progression increases.

OP, the best thing you can do for yourself is SMILE A LOT and be friendly. People will want to hire you as long as you aren't a creeper. Still mass mail, and do diversity fairs, but you're in a GOOD POSITION.

OP is asian american, not african american

[Anonymous User]

Quick question, if at median or below at a T14 makes it hard to find a job, what does half of the t14 do? Or is that where they drop down to medium or small law?

[Tiago Splitter]

Quick question, if at median or below at a T14 makes it hard to find a job, what does half of the t14 do? Or is that where they drop down to medium or small law?

Well over half the T-14 gets biglaw or other equivalent outcomes. It's just that employment doesn't track grades perfectly, so even if 70% of your class lands a biglaw SA from OCI you can't be certain that you'll get one just because you're in the top 70%.

[dood]

this thread is so confusing. so correct me if im wrong: (1) OP is azn, not black; (2) OP's end goal is NYC biglaw but also applying to pacific NW bc he has ties there; (3) and possibly also could work at a "regional" firm in a SE asian country.

(1) agree with others, azn provides very little or no boost at all.

(2) you're not screwed for either, but you will need to work hard to obtain your goals. you should cast the net far and wide, bc in one market you're competing for like 10 positions, and in the other you're competing against 10000 other applicants with better grades than you.

(3) i dont know what you mean by "regional" -- the Singapore office of a V20 firm is different than a bumfuck Singapore-based firm. from your comments re: pay, i believe you are referring to the latter. in that case, your career counselor is an idiot. complete waste of time if you want NYC biglaw as your end goal. Mandarin and English are the only valuable languages, and it sounds like you aren't fluent in mandarin anyways.

overall you're screwed only as much as you slack off. if you work your ass off, grades, networking, just general hustling, you're not screwed at all. if you dont, you fail. unlike admissions and OCI, nothing is left to chance, everything is up to you now.