Am I screwed for Michigan OCI? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Heading into OCI this fall with a very average - more shitty than average, actually - GPA around 3.1. Am I screwed totally and completely? I like to think I'm somewhat easygoing and able to hold my own in interviews (like everyone else thinks about themselves...), and I'm splitting my summer with a district court judge and a small firm. I hope that adds some strength to my resume, but I can't get over the frightening feeling that my GPA will be callback-prohibitive.....

[bk1]

Your odds probably aren't great but you can't change anything about your grades now. Just focus on unselective NYC firms, practice your interviewing skills, and hope for the best.

[Anonymous User]

Remember that at Michigan's OCI, the interviewers aren't supposed to look at your grades until after the interview. Just make sure to demonstrate focused knowledge on that particular firm and why you would be an absolutely amazing fit there. Granted, some firms will not give you a callback regardless because of the grades, but this is where your bid list becomes more important. Take a look at firms on the Michigan GPA OCI file and see what the low ends were in previous years and bid hard on these firms that match your profile.

I cannot discount that grades matter, but many interviewers have a lot of discretion in recommending callbacks. I'm not sure what others think, but if I were an interviewer looking at your GPA, I would need to see something in your background that demonstrates a very hard work ethic to make sure that your GPA isn't due to being lazy. We all know grades can be all over the map, but if you can demonstrate a very strong work ethic from your past, this should go a long way to alleviate the interviewers potential concerns.

[DELG]

You do not have a GPA that allows you to lean solely on OCI. Broaden your search now.

[bk1]

You do not have a GPA that allows you to lean solely on OCI. Broaden your search now.

+1000

[crit_racer]

Best things you can do now

1) do good work at your internships this summer. Even if firm doesn't give you an offer, it would be good if you could use the judge and/or ppl at the firm to help you find something

2) mass mail small, mid, and large firms in any market you have ties to. If you are from secondary market, blanket it with your resume. I'd use mail to target these secondary markets and then use your OCI bids on NY firms w/ large classes and hope someone likes you.

[Anonymous User]

OP, I had a slightly higher GPA last year at Mich and here is my advice:

1) Its going to be rough. I know it sucks, just prepare yourself.

2) Get rid of any ego you have. I didn't bid at some firms because I still thought I was above them, or I wasn't prepared to accept below market pay. It almost cost me an offer entirely. Having an offer at a below-market paying firm with a terrible reputation is 1000X better than no offer. So, bid for the least selective firms possible. Don't exclude something because you think you're even slightly competitive.

3) Mass mailing did not work for me. At all. However, I had no ties to any secondary markets. If you do, mass mail them in early August, connect with people there, and emphasize your desire to return. I know people with sub 3.0's who were able to get jobs in secondary markets while people with 3.5's struck out because they only bid DC or something. There is real opportunity in those markets if you have connections. If you don't, I can't say how much help mass mailing will be, I literally didn't even get a response with over 500 mails all around the country.

Are you screwed entirely? No. People have and will continue to get offers with your GPA. You can try and be optimistic. But be prepared for the worst, with the new curve you're going to be at an even greater disadvantage than in previous years. I really wish you the best, its a terrible experience.

[Anonymous User]

MLaw Class of 2013 here. Not going to sugarcoat it for you, it's going to be a longshot that you get anything from OCI. I had a 3.15 GPA after my 1st year and did not even get one call back. The problem is that yes, these firms don't look at your GPA until after the interview, but unfortunately most of them have strict GPA cutoffs. So they look at your GPA after the interview and then no matter how much you nailed the interview you can't be considered for an offer. They might draw the line at 3.7, or 3.5, or even 3.3...but wherever they draw it you will probably be below the line.

That is why I would echo what others have said in this forum. You need to be prepared for the worst but not give up hope. You should just go in there to at least gain some interview experience and then hope for the best. A nice relaxed approach will actually serve you well in the interviews. Once its over, you just mass mail and look on Symplicity for jobs. I did a couple callbacks with mid sized firms just by keeping up with the job postings online.

Good luck to you. It's not fun to be in your position but believe me there are LOTS of people who get jobs outside of OCI, be it at smaller firms, public interest organizations, or clerkships.

[bk1]

Once its over, you just mass mail and look on Symplicity for jobs.

Just to be clear, OP should do this well in advance of OCI (in addition to doing it during and after OCI).

[Anonymous User]

All the above are good advice. I am a 2L at UVa. In UVa, the career service department compiled a chart of accumulated data for most law firms coming to our OGI (On-Grounds Interview), including cut-off GPA for initial interviews; flexibility about the GPA cut-off; number of total SA seats available firm-wide; number of offers made out to UVa students; GPA spreads for those who received offers from the firm, etc.

This data mining was very helpful in my case because my 1L GPA was 3.01, terrible! But I took full advantage of the information extracted from the above chart (avoiding those who have firm rules about GPA or who demand a GPA of 3.4 and above). Without doing any mass mailing and with some luck, I secured 4 callbacks from Biglaw firms, nailed 3 offers therefrom, and accepted an offer from a Biglaw firm in a major market.

Check with UM career service people for similar information. Good luck!

[Crowing]

All the above are good advice. I am a 2L at UVa. In UVa, the career service department compiled a chart of accumulated data for most law firms coming to our OGI (On-Grounds Interview), including cut-off GPA for initial interviews; flexibility about the GPA cut-off; number of total SA seats available firm-wide; number of offers made out to UVa students; GPA spreads for those who received offers from the firm, etc.

This data mining was very helpful in my case because my 1L GPA was 3.01, terrible! But I took full advantage of the information extracted from the above chart (avoiding those who have firm rules about GPA or who demand a GPA of 3.4 and above). Without doing any mass mailing and with some luck, I secured 4 callbacks from Biglaw firms, nailed 3 offers therefrom, and accepted an offer from a Biglaw firm in a major market.

Check with UM career service people for similar information. Good luck!

Wow do most T14s have this detailed information? All we have is a range of grades that have gotten callbacks in the past three years at each firm. I wish we knew firm cutoffs.

[bk1]

All the above are good advice. I am a 2L at UVa. In UVa, the career service department compiled a chart of accumulated data for most law firms coming to our OGI (On-Grounds Interview), including cut-off GPA for initial interviews; flexibility about the GPA cut-off; number of total SA seats available firm-wide; number of offers made out to UVa students; GPA spreads for those who received offers from the firm, etc.

This data mining was very helpful in my case because my 1L GPA was 3.01, terrible! But I took full advantage of the information extracted from the above chart (avoiding those who have firm rules about GPA or who demand a GPA of 3.4 and above). Without doing any mass mailing and with some luck, I secured 4 callbacks from Biglaw firms, nailed 3 offers therefrom, and accepted an offer from a Biglaw firm in a major market.

Check with UM career service people for similar information. Good luck!

Wow do most T14s have this detailed information? All we have is a range of grades that have gotten callbacks in the past three years at each firm. I wish we knew firm cutoffs.

If it's stated cutoffs then it's meaningless.

[applepiecrust]

Heading into OCI this fall with a very average - more shitty than average, actually - GPA around 3.1. Am I screwed totally and completely? I like to think I'm somewhat easygoing and able to hold my own in interviews (like everyone else thinks about themselves...), and I'm splitting my summer with a district court judge and a small firm. I hope that adds some strength to my resume, but I can't get over the frightening feeling that my GPA will be callback-prohibitive.....

You should mass-mail extensively, both before and after OCI. Drop me a message and I'm happy to discuss more.

[Anonymous User]

Heading into OCI this fall with a very average - more shitty than average, actually - GPA around 3.1. Am I screwed totally and completely? I like to think I'm somewhat easygoing and able to hold my own in interviews (like everyone else thinks about themselves...), and I'm splitting my summer with a district court judge and a small firm. I hope that adds some strength to my resume, but I can't get over the frightening feeling that my GPA will be callback-prohibitive.....

Look at the historical data available through OCP and form your bid list accordingly. I am in a similar position (around a 3.25) so I feel your pain.

[Anonymous User]

OP here - all grades are in for the semester. Now sitting at just over 3.2. Not sure if this is a marked improvement in my chances at OCI, though.

[jbagelboy]

OP here - all grades are in for the semester. Now sitting at just over 3.2. Not sure if this is a marked improvement in my chances at OCI, though.

It's definitely an improvement. Isn't that near Michigan's median? either way, the most important advice to glean from these valuable comments for you remains:

(1) apply to the least selective large firms in easiest markets, i.e., NYC. You can gauge selectivity by reviewing the materials your school provides you about screener-to-CB ratios, or alternatively by browsing TLS. Do not waste bids on firms that are out of your league. Below median folks at my school have told me they threw bids out to cravath and paul weiss just because they thought they might be that one in a million case.. just, don't do that, conserve.

(2) start mass mailing early, not after you start doing CB's.

[Anonymous User]

OP here - all grades are in for the semester. Now sitting at just over 3.2. Not sure if this is a marked improvement in my chances at OCI, though.

It's definitely an improvement. Isn't that near Michigan's median? either way, the most important advice to glean from these valuable comments for you remains:

(1) apply to the least selective large firms in easiest markets, i.e., NYC. You can gauge selectivity by reviewing the materials your school provides you about screener-to-CB ratios, or alternatively by browsing TLS. Do not waste bids on firms that are out of your league. Below median folks at my school have told me they threw bids out to cravath and paul weiss just because they thought they might be that one in a million case.. just, don't do that, conserve.

(2) start mass mailing early, not after you start doing CB's.

OP here again. Thanks - everyone - for the advice. Not sure why people in my situation would even think of bidding Cravath etc. I certainly don't anticipate being that careless. Just hoping to nab a callback somewhere.

[DELG]

OP isn't going to massmail, is he. Sigh.

[BuckinghamB]

OP here - all grades are in for the semester. Now sitting at just over 3.2. Not sure if this is a marked improvement in my chances at OCI, though.

It's definitely an improvement. Isn't that near Michigan's median?.

I think they changed it last year to a 3.3 or something

[Anonymous User]

You need to adjust the anecdotes in this thread to the new median. Someone with a 3.2, 3.1, or 3.0 in the past are not identical to similar grades for your year. I'm telling you that I know a bunch of people who didn't get a single callback, and I was one of them. Bid on less-selective NYC firms and, please please please, mass mail. I didn't mass mail until after OCI. I never even got an interview for a firm gig after OCI.

[Anonymous User]

Not 100% sure, but I think the median for 1L classes this year is over 3.4, and before this year it was very close to 3.3...? Anecdotal-ish, that might not be right

EDIT: nvm, i'm off-base, according to this it used to be 3.13-3.25 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_la ... GPA_curves

[Anonymous User]

Not 100% sure, but I think the median for 1L classes this year is over 3.4, and before this year it was very close to 3.3...? Anecdotal-ish, that might not be right

EDIT: nvm, i'm off-base, according to this it used to be 3.13-3.25 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_la ... GPA_curves

Yeah, I think it used to be 3.13-3.25 and now will be 3.3-3.4 range.

[gnuwheels]

The curve always is on the higher end of the suggested range (see: grade reports), so it will be closer to 3.4. Also, the summer starters will have inflated GPAs for the most part so factor in a quarter of OCI participants having closer to a 3.5 and the "median" looks more like something slightly above 3.4

[Anonymous User]

The curve always is on the higher end of the suggested range (see: grade reports), so it will be closer to 3.4. Also, the summer starters will have inflated GPAs for the most part so factor in a quarter of OCI participants having closer to a 3.5 and the "median" looks more like something slightly above 3.4

I've been wondering about that - do you think that Summer Starters are actually in a better position because they've taken a semester's worth of seminars and presumably have a higher GPA, or do employers look more at their cumulative GPA after their second semester?

[gnuwheels]

The curve always is on the higher end of the suggested range (see: grade reports), so it will be closer to 3.4. Also, the summer starters will have inflated GPAs for the most part so factor in a quarter of OCI participants having closer to a 3.5 and the "median" looks more like something slightly above 3.4

I've been wondering about that - do you think that Summer Starters are actually in a better position because they've taken a semester's worth of seminars and presumably have a higher GPA, or do employers look more at their cumulative GPA after their second semester?

Every year, summer starters outperform. It's not just that they have higher GPAs in general, but they have a chance to take electives in their area of interest and put together a good story about what practice area they want.

I'm not saying it's fair. Im just saying.