What is fair pay for midlaw entry-level Forum

[BobsYourMan30]

Hi everyone,

I recently accepted an entry-level associate possible at a "mid-sized " firm (90 attorneys) in a large secondary market. They appear to do a lot of insurance defense (professional liability, employment, auto, premises, etc.) but also do non-ID work as well.

Anyway, they have offered to pay me 85k per year. Is this a fair wage? Market in my area pays 140k. What are non-biglaw firms paying usually??

[A. Nony Mouse]

Whatever they want/can/the market will bear. That sounds pretty fair to me.

[BobsYourMan30]

What doesn't make sense to me is that all associates bill the exact same rate. Why should an associate with more experience get paid more. At this firm i'm at, an 8th year associate bills the exact same as me but makes 140k. We have the same level of profitability, I dont understand the discrepancy in wage.

[UnicornHunter]

What doesn't make sense to me is that all associates bill the exact same rate. Why should an associate with more experience get paid more. At this firm i'm at, an 8th year associate bills the exact same as me but makes 140k. We have the same level of profitability, I dont understand the discrepancy in wage.

When you're an 8th year, you'll appreciate a) your increased wages and b) the difference between you and a 1st year. Would not recommend advancing the "we bill the same" argument in salary negotiations.

[BobsYourMan30]

What doesn't make sense to me is that all associates bill the exact same rate. Why should an associate with more experience get paid more. At this firm i'm at, an 8th year associate bills the exact same as me but makes 140k. We have the same level of profitability, I dont understand the discrepancy in wage.

When you're an 8th year, you'll appreciate a) your increased wages and b) the difference between you and a 1st year. Would not recommend advancing the "we bill the same" argument in salary negotiations.

Well I was talking to a 3rd year about this at the firm. He makes significantly less than 140k but does everything the 8th year does and with little or no supervision. Especially in our practice where cases almost never go to trial and most cases settle before depositions. Doesn't make sense to me.

[Bobnoxious]

What Afghan said. They could always pay you less since you don't have a track record of company loyalty and haven't had the opportunity to show that you can work with the good and the bad that comes with this particular firm. You could suggest that instead of suggesting you have demonstrated that loyalty, or you could make the argument that length of service and the loyalty it shows has absolutely zero economic value.

I wish you luck.

[BobsYourMan30]

What Afghan said. They could always pay you less since you don't have a track record of company loyalty and haven't had the opportunity to show that you can work with the good and the bad that comes with this particular firm. You could suggest that instead of suggesting you have demonstrated that loyalty, or you could make the argument that length of service and the loyalty it shows has absolutely zero economic value.

I wish you luck.

Which is why I gave the example of the 3rd year whose actually been there longer than the 8th year associate lateral. Oh well, at least its a job but this aspect is very annoying.

[OutCold]

You really need to learn how seniority works. Even if a third year is doing the same work as an eighth year, which is probably not the case, you are forgetting that the ones who are still at the firm in their eighth year are generally the ones that haven't been shown the door to free up room for the incoming cheaper labor. They have a demonstrated level of competence. They are paid more as the firm whittles their number down to determine if they have partnership potential. If their pay didn't increase for eight years, do you really think they would still be at the firm? Whether you realize it or not, a fourth year is a lot more marketable in lateral hiring than a first or second year.

[rad lulz]

d

[Veyron]

Hi everyone,

I recently accepted an entry-level associate possible at a "mid-sized " firm (90 attorneys) in a large secondary market. They appear to do a lot of insurance defense (professional liability, employment, auto, premises, etc.) but also do non-ID work as well.

Anyway, they have offered to pay me 85k per year. Is this a fair wage? Market in my area pays 140k. What are non-biglaw firms paying usually??

85 + bonus sounds just about spot-on for that firm size in that market for a 1st year lawyer.

[IAFG]

From what I know this is a higher end salary for ID. And ID isn't "midlaw."

[guano]

Take that offer and quit your bitching you ungrateful loon

this


There are genuine midlaw firms in NYC that pay $90-$110. $85k in a secondary market is a good outcome

[BobsYourMan30]

What kind if increases should I expect annually? I suppose I could lateral to biglaw or better paying firm after a few years. The firm isn't exclusively ID. Just annoying to see these "senior" associates make so much more and they're not that competent anyway.

[09042014]

What kind if increases should I expect annually? I suppose I could lateral to biglaw or better paying firm after a few years. The firm isn't exclusively ID. Just annoying to see these "senior" associates make so much more and they're not that competent anyway.

Wait 4 years is you can lateral in as a partner to big law.

[BobsYourMan30]

What kind if increases should I expect annually? I suppose I could lateral to biglaw or better paying firm after a few years. The firm isn't exclusively ID. Just annoying to see these "senior" associates make so much more and they're not that competent anyway.

Wait 4 years is you can lateral in as a partner to big law.

Make fun. If economy wasn't so crap, I'd prob get big law.

[A. Nony Mouse]

What kind if increases should I expect annually? I suppose I could lateral to biglaw or better paying firm after a few years. The firm isn't exclusively ID. Just annoying to see these "senior" associates make so much more and they're not that competent anyway.

And so when you're a senior associate I presume you'll lobby for new associates to make the same amount as you?

[BobsYourMan30]

What kind if increases should I expect annually? I suppose I could lateral to biglaw or better paying firm after a few years. The firm isn't exclusively ID. Just annoying to see these "senior" associates make so much more and they're not that competent anyway.

And so when you're a senior associate I presume you'll lobby for new associates to make the same amount as you?

No because it's not in my interest but as it stands with same billing rates, I'm more profitable for the firm. It just doesn't make business sense. Firms should realize that 8th year associates have no leverage. Their value declines in the market. There's no need to pay them so much.

[kalvano]

You aren't more profitable. An 8th year associate collects on every hour he or she bills. The firm will probably have to cut your bills by a ton for the first couple years.

[BobsYourMan30]

You aren't more profitable. An 8th year associate collects on every hour he or she bills. The firm will probably have to cut your bills by a ton for the first couple years.

I was talking to the 3rd year and they collected more $$$ in total on his work than the senior associate.

[A. Nony Mouse]

You aren't more profitable. An 8th year associate collects on every hour he or she bills. The firm will probably have to cut your bills by a ton for the first couple years.

I was talking to the 3rd year and they collected more $$$ in total on his work than the senior associate.

Anecdata much? And what does this have to do you with your profitability?

In any case, if you've taken this job, you need to just suck it up and get over the perceived inequity. They're not going to change people's salaries just for you, law firms traditionally give raises based on seniority, you're not going to be able to do anything about it.

[BobsYourMan30]

You aren't more profitable. An 8th year associate collects on every hour he or she bills. The firm will probably have to cut your bills by a ton for the first couple years.

I was talking to the 3rd year and they collected more $$$ in total on his work than the senior associate.

Anecdata much? And what does this have to do you with your profitability?

In any case, if you've taken this job, you need to just suck it up and get over the perceived inequity. They're not going to change people's salaries just for you, law firms traditionally give raises based on seniority, you're not going to be able to do anything about it.

At what point am I a viable candidate for a lateral move? One year?

[kalvano]

LOL at special snowflake syndrome.

[sublime]

..

[twenty 8]

Hi everyone,

... they have offered to pay me 85k per year. Is this a fair wage? Market in my area pays 140k.

Were you not aware of the disparity in market pay when you were an SA or is there more to your story?

[20141023]

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