1L Question: DOJ vs. V20 Foreign Office Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hi all,

Trying to decide whether to spend 1L summer at DOJ Civil Rights or V20 firm's foreign office (in East Asia). DOJ would obviously be unpaid, but I would get about $4K in public interest funding from my school. The firm position is a summer internship (not summer associate position), would only last 6 weeks, and pay very little (less than what I'd get from my school), though it's in a location I have family at and can probably stay with. I'm also very interested in international M&A and cross-border litigation/dispute resolution/arbitration and hope to do that work after law school.

Thoughts?

[dead head]

V20 seems to be a much better fit based on your career goals. Given your family ties, I'm assuming you have language skills and that this might be HK? (If so, hopefully you also speak Mandarin.) If you're interested in practicing in the V20 city after graduation, then I would think it's a no-brainer to go there, even if most HK practice seems to be Capital Markets.

Is splitting an option?

[Anonymous User]

Probably not, so it's one or the other.

My main concern is the position is officially a summer internship with no expectation to come back 2L summer. Will firms at OCI be suspicious when/if I have to tell them that there was no offer to come back?

[Anonymous User]

Is it in HK or another country/city? Depending on where it is, I might be able to provide some more useful information.

[Anonymous User]

It's in Taipei. All the attorneys there are Taiwanese and do Taiwanese work, so I'm not sure how relevant that would to my career goals.

[Anonymous User]

Ah, gotcha. I don't have much information about Taiwan, unfortunately. However, the "summer internship" positions are usually treated just like "summer associates" in terms of workload (and title - you can put "summer associate" on your resume). The only big difference, as you already know, is the pay.

A lot of the offices in East Asia don't hire grads directly out of law school (for a variety of reasons which depend on the country). However, even though a 1L summer internship might not lead into a 2L SA, many of those offices will recommend you to one of their American offices if you do a good job during the summer, which can turn into a full-time offer if the interview goes well. If you get an offer, in many cases you will end up working at one of their American offices for a few years, but with the understanding that you will transfer back to the Asian office in the near future.

Another thing to keep in mind is that it will be much easier to network while you are in that region during the summer. If you've already applied to other firms in the area (regardless of whether you were rejected or accepted), contact them again and let them know that you're in the area, and try to meet up with attorneys from the firms as well.

[Anonymous User]

Ah, gotcha. I don't have much information about Taiwan, unfortunately. However, the "summer internship" positions are usually treated just like "summer associates" in terms of workload (and title - you can put "summer associate" on your resume). The only big difference, as you already know, is the pay.

A lot of the offices in East Asia don't hire grads directly out of law school (for a variety of reasons which depend on the country). However, even though a 1L summer internship might not lead into a 2L SA, many of those offices will recommend you to one of their American offices if you do a good job during the summer, which can turn into a full-time offer if the interview goes well. If you get an offer, in many cases you will end up working at one of their American offices for a few years, but with the understanding that you will transfer back to the Asian office in the near future.

Another thing to keep in mind is that it will be much easier to network while you are in that region during the summer. If you've already applied to other firms in the area (regardless of whether you were rejected or accepted), contact them again and let them know that you're in the area, and try to meet up with attorneys from the firms as well.

Awesome, this is very helpful. Thank you.

So just to clarify, OCI interviewers won't look at you cross-eyed if you put "summer associate" on your resume but didn't get an offer to go back to that firm?

[hichvichwoh]

if you're leaning towards accepting the firm internship, start looking for things to fill out the rest of summer. 6 weeks is pretty short and it would look bad if that's the only thing you have on your resume for 1L summer.

[Anonymous User]

Awesome, this is very helpful. Thank you.

So just to clarify, OCI interviewers won't look at you cross-eyed if you put "summer associate" on your resume but didn't get an offer to go back to that firm?

Just be honest if asked and tell them that you wanted to see what it was like working for an American firm in that country, but a lot of the firms don't hire directly out of law school in that region, and that you went in with that understanding. You really just wanted to get the work experience as well as test the waters and see if that is something that you wanted to do in the future.

if you're leaning towards accepting the firm internship, start looking for things to fill out the rest of summer. 6 weeks is pretty short and it would look bad if that's the only thing you have on your resume for 1L summer.

I am not sure that it would necessarily matter; on my resume I've put "Summer 20--" for every internship I did during undergrad, and plan to do the same throughout law school. Nobody has ever asked me if a summer job was 4, 6, 8, 10, or however many weeks it could have been. If they ask, you could even just say the months (e.g., "it was from June through August," even if it started at the end of June and ended in early August). Maybe I am wrong, but I cannot imagine this being a big deal or looking bad if it's the only thing you have on your resume for 1L summer.

[dead head]

However, the "summer internship" positions are usually treated just like "summer associates" in terms of workload (and title - you can put "summer associate" on your resume). The only big difference, as you already know, is the pay.

I would not be inclined to list this as a Summer Associateship. Those words have a specific and well defined meaning, and this isn't it. Maybe if your career services and the firm OKs it, then I would list it as such. And if you do, be prepared to answer SA-specific questions (such as whether you received a return offer, though this is easy enough to answer).

Also, is the Taipei office seen as a real, integrated office, or is it more like a mainly local outpost or "V20 in association with..." type offices staffed mainly with locally-educated lawyers?

[Anonymous User]

However, the "summer internship" positions are usually treated just like "summer associates" in terms of workload (and title - you can put "summer associate" on your resume). The only big difference, as you already know, is the pay.

I would not be inclined to list this as a Summer Associateship. Those words have a specific and well defined meaning, and this isn't it. Maybe if your career services and the firm OKs it, then I would list it as such. And if you do, be prepared to answer SA-specific questions (such as whether you received a return offer, though this is easy enough to answer).

Also, is the Taipei office seen as a real, integrated office, or is it more like a mainly local outpost or "V20 in association with..." type offices staffed mainly with locally-educated lawyers?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'real, integrated' vs. 'V20 in association with.' It's a V20 office in Taipei, though all of their lawyers are local. Which is why I doubt they will offer me to come back. I talked to a 3L at my school who got the same offer two years ago (same office, same term of stay, same salary), and she said they called it an SA when offered it to her. So it is kind of confusing.

[Anonymous User]

However, the "summer internship" positions are usually treated just like "summer associates" in terms of workload (and title - you can put "summer associate" on your resume). The only big difference, as you already know, is the pay.

I would not be inclined to list this as a Summer Associateship. Those words have a specific and well defined meaning, and this isn't it. Maybe if your career services and the firm OKs it, then I would list it as such. And if you do, be prepared to answer SA-specific questions (such as whether you received a return offer, though this is easy enough to answer).

Also, is the Taipei office seen as a real, integrated office, or is it more like a mainly local outpost or "V20 in association with..." type offices staffed mainly with locally-educated lawyers?

What is the "well defined meaning" of a summer associate position? As I mentioned above, the work that a lot of top American firms offer through their "summer internship programs" at foreign offices are exactly what a normal summer associate would be doing in terms of work content. The main differences are the pay and the ability to go back afterwards, which I don't think are defining attributes of a summer associate position that employers will care about at 2L OCI. (These people who take these positions are still referred to by many of the firms as "summer associates," but the programs themselves are called "summer intern programs" just so that applicants are clear about the pay and expectations about an offer. This is why I don't see an issue with OP writing his title as "summer associate" on his resume.)

One good point, however, is the thing about the types of lawyers at that office. If there are a decent number of American lawyers there, then you will probably get some nice experience in the eyes of American employers, whereas if there are almost nothing but native (domestically-educated) lawyers at that office, then you might only get to handle domestic projects which won't be as useful when applying for jobs in the States. What dead head is talking about is that a lot of foreign offices carry no clout within that firm as a whole, and are almost not viewed as a "real" part of that firm. For example, if the office has dozens of attorneys, about half of which are American lawyers, then it is probably an integrated office which is its own source of revenue for the company. However, if there are only 10 local lawyers and one American partner, then it might not be viewed the same way even if it lists that office on the firm's website. (Since you said that all of the lawyers are local hires, it is unfortunately probably a foreign outpost and not an integrated part of the worldwide firm.)

[Anonymous User]

Ahh, gotcha. Thanks.

[dead head]

What is the "well defined meaning" of a summer associate position? As I mentioned above, the work that a lot of top American firms offer through their "summer internship programs" at foreign offices are exactly what a normal summer associate would be doing in terms of work content. The main differences are the pay and the ability to go back afterwards, which I don't think are defining attributes of a summer associate position that employers will care about at 2L OCI. (These people who take these positions are still referred to by many of the firms as "summer associates," but the programs themselves are called "summer intern programs" just so that applicants are clear about the pay and expectations about an offer. This is why I don't see an issue with OP writing his title as "summer associate" on his resume.)

I don't think the type of work has much to do with it. I mean, there are lots of summer jobs that are more challenging than SAs, but that doesn't mean they have the same status as SAs or should be called that. I mean, it's not like 2L SAs or junior associates do really hard work or that that's what distinguishes them from students and lawyers who don't get SA or biglaw positions.

For me, the term Summer Associate has more to do with a competitive selection process with an eye to permanent employment. Obviously this may be more or less true for 1L SAs, but the pay is certainly an element of an SA to the extent it signals a potentially long-term investment by the firm in a non-productive individual. A generic summer internship, whose selection process may be much less competitive, doesn't really convey this to me. Of course, if the firm itself calls you an SA, then feel free to use this term.

[banker9]

Just to chime in on the summer associate vs. summer internship distinction:

I've had an analogous experience at a foreign (East Asian) office of a investment bank. I'm not entirely sure if this applies to law firms, but I've noticed that lots of companies in finance/consulting etc. with foreign offices in asia have these two different summer programs - a more formal "summer associate" program that follows the traditional U.S. model (formal on-campus recruiting, expectation for FT employment, etc), and a less formal "summer internship" program.

The internship programs often seem targeted (or at least draw) largely from students with parents who are clients/partners/connected. Thus, they often involve much shorter time periods, no pay, and really no substantive work at all. You are there to experience the atmosphere and learn through osmosis mostly. In terms of the title, I specified "summer internship" on my resume to be safe, but I think putting "associate" wouldn't have been problematic (also, I worked at two different places that summer so it was more obvious that I didn't do the formal 10 week program).

Again, not sure this applies to law firms, but my guess would be that the distinction might be similar. So if you take the East Asian office, I wouldn't expect to do much substantive work at all - then again, you probably wouldn't do toooo much more your 2L summer during a formal associate program or other 1L jobs (though DOJ/other government jobs are on the better end of the spectrum I've heard).

[Anonymous User]

Just to chime in on the summer associate vs. summer internship distinction:

I've had an analogous experience at a foreign (East Asian) office of a investment bank. I'm not entirely sure if this applies to law firms, but I've noticed that lots of companies in finance/consulting etc. with foreign offices in asia have these two different summer programs - a more formal "summer associate" program that follows the traditional U.S. model (formal on-campus recruiting, expectation for FT employment, etc), and a less formal "summer internship" program.

The internship programs often seem targeted (or at least draw) largely from students with parents who are clients/partners/connected. Thus, they often involve much shorter time periods, no pay, and really no substantive work at all. You are there to experience the atmosphere and learn through osmosis mostly. In terms of the title, I specified "summer internship" on my resume to be safe, but I think putting "associate" wouldn't have been problematic (also, I worked at two different places that summer so it was more obvious that I didn't do the formal 10 week program).

Again, not sure this applies to law firms, but my guess would be that the distinction might be similar. So if you take the East Asian office, I wouldn't expect to do much substantive work at all - then again, you probably wouldn't do toooo much more your 2L summer during a formal associate program or other 1L jobs (though DOJ/other government jobs are on the better end of the spectrum I've heard).

I did a summer internship at one of the firms you speak of in a major city in East Asia during undergrad, and got an offer to go back after graduation. It was hardly "official" - I lined it up myself instead of acquiring it through formal on-campus recruiting, and there wasn't any formal training as part of the summer program. Interns were simply thrown into the fire and expected to work as a member of the team (of course, it was expected that you would ask questions and stuff, but it was hardly the kind of passive thing you are talking about). Depending on the firm / office, summer "internship" positions in East Asia also work like this for law students, although I am sure that there are probably also some like those you are describing (especially if they aren't an integrated office but are rather just an associated office).