How to get Academia Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hi everyone,

So I didn't expect to do as well or have the options I now have when I started law school, but I've been pretty lucky. I'm on a full scholarship at a T4-T10, class rank somewhere between #1 and #5, and just got a 1L SA at a V5. The full ride was the deciding factor in going to law school at all, but I'm more of a lifestyle person, will have no debt, and don't care about making money.

The only thing I'd be interested in is being a law professor, for pretty obvious reasons. What should be my goals at this point? Do I have to give up the free ride and transfer to Yale? (would strongly prefer not to) Obviously a SCOTUS clerkship would help, and being editor of law review. Any guidance would be much appreciated.

[ph14]

Hi everyone,

So I didn't expect to do as well or have the options I now have when I started law school, but I've been pretty lucky. I'm on a full scholarship at a T4-T10, class rank somewhere between #1 and #5, and just got a 1L SA at a V5. The full ride was the deciding factor in going to law school at all, but I'm more of a lifestyle person, will have no debt, and don't care about making money.

The only thing I'd be interested in is being a law professor, for pretty obvious reasons. What should be my goals at this point? Do I have to give up the free ride and transfer to Yale? (would strongly prefer not to) Obviously a SCOTUS clerkship would help, and being editor of law review. Any guidance would be much appreciated.

1. No, you don't have to transfer to Yale.
2. Focus on keeping your grades up.
3. Try and get onto law review (depending on your school, you might grade on, though obviously you haven't given school information).
4. Apply for clerkships after you have received 1L grades and secure a Court of Appeals clerkship. I've been told by another TLS poster (who probably will drop by this thread) that certain judges, because of an academic background or otherwise, can help you in obtaining a law professor position, both because of connections but also because of the judge's reputation.
5. To maximize your odds of obtaining a law professor position, pick a field that isn't overly saturated. Constitutional law is the most saturated field and consequently is the hardest to break into.
6. I've been told by a law professor that focusing on a particular field/specialization is better than the law school "keeping all doors options" approach of not really wanting to narrow down areas. So pick an area and try and develop some knowledge and expertise in it.
7. Develop professor connections in the area you want to eventually teach and write in.
8. Try and write a note in that area or otherwise get a piece published in that area. This isn't obviously necessary to do in law school. In fact, from what i've been told, you will mostly be judged by your professional publications, not student publications. Still, I don't think it would be hurt by getting a publication or two on the resume.
9. Think about doing some sort of fellowship after you finish your clerkship. This will give you time and support to research and write, as well as develop faculty connections and references.
10. Think also about methodology and what you are capable of. Having some sort or external expertise you can apply to the law is definitely helpful. Think law & economics, etc. In any event, reflect on what kind of methodology you would/could use in writing.
11. Publishing and grades seem to be probably the most important factors, from what I can tell. There is a little bit more inside baseball I can discuss, but I'd prefer not to post it here.

[Anonymous User]

Those things are the credentials you need for a law teaching job in 1985. These days, they would be a plus but neither necessary nor sufficient. Your top priority should be developing a compelling, publishable research agenda because that is what will get you the job when you've checked some prestige boxes. Look here for the credentials of this year's hires: http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblaw ... eport.html
Note that half didn't even do a clerkship, and most are not from Yale. Of course, you should do a clerkship if you want to, and it will probably help some.

You should know that you're signing up for a research job that also includes teaching. It's okay if you don't know yet what interests you at this stage, but you should have some ideas. So: if you aren't doing this already, start keeping notes on interesting questions. Pay attention to those "further reading" notes in your textbook. Pick a favorite idea or two and talk with a prof with relevant expertise about how to pursue it further. Shape your coursework in a direction. Consider some RA work next fall. Take seminars where you can write papers that will be germs of articles. Do an independent study. Yes, there are people who get started later, but it's harder. Right now is your chance to explore and get excited about ideas, then hopefully you can do more with them by 3L. Especially if you're planning on big law after graduation, law school is your best chance to get some projects to the point where you can keep making progress while working, and it goes faster than you think.

Consider whether a PhD or other degree in an allied field would helpful to your research interests--though note that the process is long, the stipends are low, and admissions are extremely competitive and based primarily on having well-developed research interests. Expect to do a VAP at some point, which will give you more time to write/publish, but note that to get a decent one you'll need publications already. To learn more about the career aspects, start browsing blogs like PrawfsBlawg, the Faculty Lounge, Leiter though he's off-base on some things, and whatever subfield blogs are relevant to you. Expect that to get a tenure-track teaching job you'll need to be at least moderately, and perhaps extremely, flexible about location--if you're lucky, you'll have an offer or a couple, and they probably won't be in Favorite Big City. Relatedly, you will likely need to move several times to maximize your career path. Remember that with student applications falling, the law teaching market has taken a nosedive, and even if applications recover, hiring will lag.

Of course, there are plenty of brass rings your top grades can get you. Is this the one you want?

Not trying to be (too) discouraging here. Academia is an awesome, exciting place if it works out for you. I am personally just at the beginning of trying to make it happen for me.

[worldtraveler]

I would suggest talking to young professors or people in VAPs and see what they did to get there and what they recommend.

For the record, I have a VAP starting next year and didn't do a lot of what you are supposed to do (didn't publish yet, didn't do law review, had very good but not fantastic grades, didn't clerk).

What did help me a lot in getting a VAP was having a defined area of interest and expertise, great faculty references, and a grad degree outside of law that gave me research and teaching experience. I would highly recommend a joint degree if you can do it for free or close to it, especially if your interests are interdisciplinary.

[Frayed Knot]

Relatedly, you will likely need to move several times to maximize your career path.

I wanted to emphasize the point about moving—you'll probably move a lot and won't really be able to start "real life" for a while. ("Real life" in the sense of settling down, developing a community, having a home, having a relationship that you expect to last more than a few months, etc.)

One plausible path would be: 1) clerk for a year in whatever location you can find (maybe followed by a 2nd clerkship). 2) Work for a firm/government in whatever city is most prestigious for 2–3 (or up to 5) years. 3) Take a VAP/fellowship for 2 years, again in whatever location has the best program that you're admitted to. 4) Go on the teaching market and be willing to accept a tenure track job wherever you can find one.

I'm not saying it CAN'T be done with less geographic flexibility—but TCR is to be willing to pack your bags every couple of years and start over in a new town. If that doesn't sound great, you might want to explore another option.

Remember that with student applications falling, the law teaching market has taken a nosedive, and even if applications recover, hiring will lag.

I want to emphasise this as well: going on the teaching market can be risky. As noted above, the usual pattern is to get a VAP/fellowship—indeed, it's almost essential so that you have enough time to get your writing done and published. However, some VAPs (even some with excellent credentials) will strike out in the hiring market. And that sucks: after striking out, they find it's much harder to go back to private sector at the level they left it. (Few people want to hire a washed-out academic.) There's a non-zero chance that you'll bounce from (low-paid) VAP to VAP for a while, waiting to catch a break on tenure-track hiring. Here's a thread where people were talking about how hard that can be http://www.thefacultylounge.org/2013/02 ... -trap.html

I don't want to oversell the risks. If you keep doing as well in LS as you have been, you'll likely have the credentials for one of the best VAP programs, and their VAPs don't strike out all that often. But the teaching market is really rough right now and may well get worse before it gets better.

[Anonymous User]

OP here - thanks so much for the advice, really really appreciate all of it. Luckily I have no problem moving around and my spouse has a very flexible job, I might just go after this!

[Anonymous User]

One more question - if I take 3 more science credits, I can sit for the patent bar. Would that help my chances at all if I pick some kind of IP/tech specialty? I also have an MBA and WE in Silicon Valley, maybe I can spin it all into something less traditional?

It seems like academia at least in law school will always be a long shot - I know this may not be the best place to ask, but given my MBA, could I do M&A at a V5 for a year or two and transition into a teaching job at a business school?

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

To OP and others ITT: this is a very difficult route to go. There are more HYS top of class and T14 order of the coif people who want to be law professors than there are tenure-track jobs. A tenured professor at my school (in his/her 50s and graduated from Yale law) told me that in today's market he/she wouldn't even get a first round interview. So while OP is absolutely killing it and will have lots of great options, I think it would be wise to consider alternative routes if academia doesn't work out.

[Pokemon]

OP, it seems to me that a lot of young professors at my school were JD/PhD. That might be something to consider if you are really set on academia.

[Anonymous User]

Anon from post #3 again: just want to say that while you should absolutely keep job market stuff in the back of your mind, at this stage, it should really be about what excites you and makes you curious. You just don't and can't know yet enough about the field and your interests to figure out what "practical" would be, and anyway what's hot and in demand when you're on the market may well be different from now. If you're thinking and working now, you can tweak your interests toward greater marketability later, as I've heard a lot of young professors describe doing. Also, corny though it may sound, you should be pursuing academia because you really passionately want to know more about the stuff you're researching. I admire the grind-through-to-get-the-prize attitude that TLS can bring to stuff, but I just don't think it works the same way here, at least not by itself--you really need the internal motivation of enjoying the process for this non-rational decision to make sense.

I know nothing about business school, but it sounds like a good option to consider as well. There are some business school people on the Chronicle of Higher Ed forums, try browsing around there?