Dealing with Psycho Partners and Bad Work Environments Forum

[Anonymous User]

I work for a midsize firm in litigation and am about 4 months in. I literally want to blow my brains out every single day and don't know how to handle this anymore. I'll gladly volunteer to cut my salary in half and take on a higher billable hours requirement if I could switch to transactional based purely on the people I work with. I work with 2 psychopathic partners I have ever seen or heard of. They yell at me all day every day for just about everything you could possibly think of. I've been yelled at for files that have nothing to do with me, for going to the bathroom at the wrong time (when they wanted to talk to me that very second), for making ANY mistakes on projects (I'm a first year, but they say that I've had 3 years in law school to make mistakes and my product needs to be perfect). I literally get destroyed by them, often in the middle of the office, almost on a daily basis. The list goes on, and on, and on. I make ~110K/year, which based on COL here is probably like 160K in NYC, and only have to work about 60-65 hours per week, but I am starting to feel like I am developing depression and/or an anxiety disorder from this shit. I don't care about the money, its just not worth it, if I could have my loans forgiven I'd rather work as an assistant manager at KFC making 40K and have a normal work environment. Too bad I have a 6 figure loan bill.

My question is: What do I do? I can't lateral with 4 months experience, I will look like a huge flight risk, and my firm is a big enough name where I'd be paranoid applying anywhere because it would get back to them. I wanted to try and ask to get transferred to transactional (The associates there all say they don't deal with anything like I do) but I think if I brought this up to the managing partners I would just get fired on the spot cause it would look like me "causing waves" which they don't need to deal with. My parents both say I need to stick it out till I have 1 full year of experience and then apply like crazy to everywhere I can, but when you're not in the situation itself its easy to say "Oh just wait till the end of the year". I kid you not I count down EVERY HOUR I'm in the office. Do I have any other options? Do I just wait till the weeks-worked unemployment threshold hits and then start talking back to them?

[lawstudent_87]

I suggest watching the movie "Swimming with Sharks," it's on Netflix.

[Nomo]

Wait it out a few more months. Try to squeeze in some vacation time to get away from the office. In the meantime try to pick up a little extra work in transactional. Tell the managing partners you think you might actually be more interested in transactional work. That might get your foot in the door for a few projects. Maybe in month 8 or 9 you can try to make a full-time switch.

If they don't let you switch full-time to transactional at least you'll have a few partners you've worked with over there that might help you move to another firm to do transacitonal work around the 1 year mark. And you'll have a reason you can sell to prospective employers for why you're leaving: your stuck in litigation at your current firm and you want to do transactional work.

[jbagelboy]

Your parents sound like pretty smart people. 1 YR is TCR. I was miserable in a job after ~4-5 months, wanted to quit, but stuck it out to just over a year and not only did it turn out to be a rewarding experience, even if it had all sucked, the firm and future employers definitely thought the better of me for it.

Just know you're not alone, and it won't last forever.

[Anonymous User]

Is there any possible way you can work for other partners or change who you're working for? Also, have you stuck up for yourself? Or do you act like a doormat?

I had a similar experience to you when I graduated a couple years ago. Awful, awful boss who was threatening to fire me (even though she didn't have the authority) after 2 weeks of being there because of completely inconsequential nonsense. No joke, she would scream and send angry emails with ALL CAPS TO EXPRESS HER ANGER about documents missing commas, minor formatting errors, etc. After 2 months of her shit I finally said something like, "You know what? You need to stop yelling at me and acting like a child. Stop your temper tantrums." It kind of stopped. I am also a dude and about a foot taller and 70lbs more than her, so.

I would try getting them to STFU. Do it in front of other people to have witnesses.

And if nothing changes, yes, unfortunately, I think you need to wait to have about a year's experience. Just try to not care about them. They are psychos and are probably divorced multiple times over. People like that have issues, so don't take it personally. It's their fault. No grown human being with any ounce of maturity yells at people they work with.

[Anonymous User]

Don't take them seriously. Just listen to their baby hissy fits and then walk away and say sorry in a low tone. Shift your mindset. They are fools and acting like children. Do NOT let them get in your head or let them get you depressed. It is a job. That is all. It should not have any bearing on your mental health. Just do your best and ignore their child-like behavior. You are an attorney and do not deserve this. Do your job. Ignore their ridiculousness. And find a new job. Then, leave and never look back.

[Anonymous User]

I had a job like this - albeit as a legal assistant out of college - but it was a similarly toxic, abusive environment, and I know how soul-crushing it can be. It would have been impossible for me to survive a year in that job. I would have literally lost my mind or done something very regrettable. With that in mind, I think you should carefully work on getting out ASAP. Work on a move to the transactional side, start putting applications out to other firms. I get that it is not the best long term move for your career, but you should weigh that against the short term costs. At least working on moving will give you some hope to cling to.

[Anonymous User]

Either start yelling the fuck back so they realize you have a spine or just quit. You said you don't give a fuck about the money anymore, so you have nothing to lose.

I guarantee you ever single person these partners have worked with know that the partners are either useless or unreasonably miserable people.

So start standing your ground or get out.

[jn7]

Either start yelling the fuck back so they realize you have a spine or just quit. You said you don't give a fuck about the money anymore, so you have nothing to lose.

I guarantee you ever single person these partners have worked with know that the partners are either useless or unreasonably miserable people.

So start standing your ground or get out.

I'm actually quite curious if there is any insight on this. Some people with experience have said that you can't ever let anybody know they can push you around (within reason of course). What is the actual outcome of you asserting yourself like that? Would it actually help? [I'm still in LS so I don't have experience in biglaw, but I have W/E and I think there is some merit to it like you can't just be a wimp b/c they have the upper hand over you etc.)

[Anonymous User]

Either start yelling the fuck back so they realize you have a spine or just quit. You said you don't give a fuck about the money anymore, so you have nothing to lose.

I guarantee you ever single person these partners have worked with know that the partners are either useless or unreasonably miserable people.

So start standing your ground or get out.

I'm actually quite curious if there is any insight on this. Some people with experience have said that you can't ever let anybody know they can push you around (within reason of course). What is the actual outcome of you asserting yourself like that? Would it actually help? [I'm still in LS so I don't have experience in biglaw, but I have W/E and I think there is some merit to it like you can't just be a wimp b/c they have the upper hand over you etc.)

I've had experience with this (not in law though). I don't recommend yelling back. But, I do think you need to confidently assert yourself. Admit your mistakes and say that you're trying to do better, but you're still learning. Tell them to stop with the threats; and if they really don't value your work then or see potential in you that they should fire you.

[ChardPennington]

Either start yelling the fuck back so they realize you have a spine or just quit. You said you don't give a fuck about the money anymore, so you have nothing to lose.

I guarantee you ever single person these partners have worked with know that the partners are either useless or unreasonably miserable people.

So start standing your ground or get out.

This seems like bad advice. For someone hiring associates it's a buyers market to say the least. I agree insofar as there is virtue in asserting yourself when your sanity depends on it but I see zero benefit to responding in kind or just ragequitting

[wert3813]

Either start yelling the fuck back so they realize you have a spine or just quit. You said you don't give a fuck about the money anymore, so you have nothing to lose.

I guarantee you ever single person these partners have worked with know that the partners are either useless or unreasonably miserable people.

So start standing your ground or get out.

I'm actually quite curious if there is any insight on this. Some people with experience have said that you can't ever let anybody know they can push you around (within reason of course). What is the actual outcome of you asserting yourself like that? Would it actually help? [I'm still in LS so I don't have experience in biglaw, but I have W/E and I think there is some merit to it like you can't just be a wimp b/c they have the upper hand over you etc.)

I've had experience with this (not in law though). I don't recommend yelling back. But, I do think you need to confidently assert yourself. Admit your mistakes and say that you're trying to do better, but you're still learning. Tell them to stop with the threats; and if they really don't value your work then or see potential in you that they should fire you.

Actually raising your voice and yelling is rarely gonna help things. That said picking your spots and stick up for yourself is probably credited. Defend decisions that deserve defense. Ask specific questions that force constructive feedback. I would probably get a little passive aggressive on occasion "Is there a way for me to know in the future when not to use the bathroom?" but that's probably not good advice.

[NotMyRealName09]

I don't know if yelling back is the right answer, but I can analogize to military boot camp maybe. There, the drill instructors yell and scream and go nuts and if you aren't prepped for it it can crush your soul. BUT if you realize this is a game (they are going to find something wrong to yell about no matter what, even if you are amazing) and it doesn't phase you - THEN THEY RESPECT YOU.

So while it's easier said than done, just tell yourself - ITS NOT PERSONAL, ITS BUSINESS, be unflappable and steady and maybe it'll simmer down.

Could be hazing, bad in its own right, sure, but does it happen to any of your peers who work with these partners and who have more experience?

[BigRob]

I don't know if yelling back is the right answer, but I can analogize to military boot camp maybe. There, the drill instructors yell and scream and go nuts and if you aren't prepped for it it can crush your soul. BUT if you realize this is a game (they are going to find something wrong to yell about no matter what, even if you are amazing) and it doesn't phase you - THEN THEY RESPECT YOU.

So while it's easier said than done, just tell yourself - ITS NOT PERSONAL, ITS BUSINESS, be unflappable and steady and maybe it'll simmer down.

Could be hazing, bad in its own right, sure, but does it happen to any of your peers who work with these partners and who have more experience?

I'm wavering between thinking this is the best answer and one of the ones above, which said to stand up for yourself.

I'd need to know more about the situation, but I'm pretty sure what you need to do is defend yourself in a way that makes the partners seem entirely unreasonable to a controlling third party (i.e. the managing partner). Yelling back won't help.

[sometimesIwonder]

In my experience, what's even more difficult is working with superiors you don't respect intellectually. How do I handle it? I would actively look for a new job...can't rely on people changing.

[Anonymous User]

I can relate to the OP as I am in a similar position. I have less than a year of experience but my boss is terrible. He freaks out over tiny things, gets upset at people who are not even the problem, and actually yells and curses staff and attorneys. He puts all the pressure in the world on the new attorneys, as well as staff, and if they mess up or can't keep up he freaks out with a nasty email or a bitch session. To make matters worse, he is not very bright.

I maintain my sanity by doing the following: (1) talking with everyone else in the office and venting because they all think he is an asshole as well, (2) look for new jobs constantly, and (3) take great pride and joy in telling him he has done something wrong and then proving it to him (as I said he is not that bright).

[sometimesIwonder]

I can relate to the OP as I am in a similar position. I have less than a year of experience but my boss is terrible. He freaks out over tiny things, gets upset at people who are not even the problem, and actually yells and curses staff and attorneys. He puts all the pressure in the world on the new attorneys, as well as staff, and if they mess up or can't keep up he freaks out with a nasty email or a bitch session. To make matters worse, he is not very bright.

I maintain my sanity by doing the following: (1) talking with everyone else in the office and venting because they all think he is an asshole as well, (2) look for new jobs constantly, and (3) take great pride and joy in telling him he has done something wrong and then proving it to him (as I said he is not that bright).

All I can say, it might get better. My boss used to get on my case about everything little thing and kept saying certain things can never happen again, etc. 2-3 years later i'm still screwing up and still employed and he has been off my case about it more. Just because they want you to be perfect doesn't mean that's a reasonable expectation.

[twenty 8]

To OP. How are the other associates treated? Is their wrath only directed at you? Apparently my deal is different from yours because I work with a number of partners. Not sure why but the ones I like the most are the ones I work with the most.

Were you an SA with this firm? If so, what was that like?

[leftfootlucy]

I'm a 0L, so I don't know if it's different in the legal world, but I had a similar thing happen to me as a research assistant. Can you record an occurrence and take it to someone higher or to HR? That worked for me. Try recording an hour or so of it as proof and hopefully someone can make it stop. Good luck .

[middlemarch]

Sounds like a terrible situation OP. I assume that if you're making the COL-adjusted equivalent of 160K in New York you're at a pretty decent firm, and your lateral options aren't terrible, though. A friend of mine lateraled 10 months into his first job out of law school and actually upgraded in my opinion (he practiced at a AmLaw200 firm in a middle-market city, from one 110K job to another). So I agree with prior posters and your parents: stick it out a few more months (maybe it doesn't even have to be a full year), don't burn any bridges, and start networking for your next job. Of course if you have terrific credentials, you could always try to exit by Aug/Sept. by applying for clerkships. If that works you'll not only be leaving earlier, they'll probably also have to treat you better.

Don't quit (seriously, at least get fired for the unemployment benefits cushion). And when you do interview for your next job, be positive. Not only will no one believe that it was as awful as you say, but you'll be shunned just for having a negative attitude and esp. if you trash-talk your former employers.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I'm a 0L, so I don't know if it's different in the legal world, but I had a similar thing happen to me as a research assistant. Can you record an occurrence and take it to someone higher or to HR? That worked for me. Try recording an hour or so of it as proof and hopefully someone can make it stop. Good luck .

Quick reminder: 0Ls are not allowed to post in the Legal Employment forum. Thanks.

[wert3813]

Sounds like a terrible situation OP. I assume that if you're making the COL-adjusted equivalent of 160K in New York you're at a pretty decent firm, and your lateral options aren't terrible, though. A friend of mine lateraled 10 months into his first job out of law school and actually upgraded in my opinion (he practiced at a AmLaw200 firm in a middle-market city, from one 110K job to another). So I agree with prior posters and your parents: stick it out a few more months (maybe it doesn't even have to be a full year), don't burn any bridges, and start networking for your next job. Of course if you have terrific credentials, you could always try to exit by Aug/Sept. by applying for clerkships. If that works you'll not only be leaving earlier, they'll probably also have to treat you better.

Don't quit (seriously, at least get fired for the unemployment benefits cushion). And when you do interview for your next job, be positive. Not only will no one believe that it was as awful as you say, but you'll be shunned just for having a negative attitude and esp. if you trash-talk your former employers.

Not sure the 0-50k in UB is enough to have to answer yes when you are asked if you have ever been fired when applying for a new job the rest of your life. But beyond that all of this seems credited.

[IAFG]

Can you record an occurrence and take it to someone higher or to HR?

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