UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:05 pm

I don't even know where to begin with making my bid list... any advice? So many firms, and I don't know anything about any of them.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:15 pm

Can anyone remind us of the

Image

for percentiles, K&E etc

20141023
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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby 20141023 » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:39 pm

.
Last edited by 20141023 on Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby beepboopbeep » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Can anyone remind us of the

excellent use of AD reference to communicate the word "cutoffs"


for percentiles, K&E etc


Percentiles (non-cumulative):

182+: 0.5%
180.5+: 7.2%
179+: 22.7%

K&E would presumably depend on grade distribution within our class. But if 180.5% is around 7.7% cumulative, I'd guess it's a shade north of that.

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2014
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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby 2014 » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:49 pm

At the risk of sounding condescending, your GPA is whatever firms say it is. If they look at it and turn it into a number, that's what it is, if they plug it into excel, that's what it is. Most people will do the excel approach, but I'm a big proponent of the mindset that your GPA is more of a range than a fixed number. In terms of calculating honors, I'm sure it's excel'd.

K&E is probably 181.5ish, not positive though. Median is likely 177.5 but again, firms have no idea and don't have time to whip out a calculator so you shouldn't concern yourself with whether you are 51st percentile vs 44th or whatever because no one notices or cares. It all looks like median most likely.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I don't even know where to begin with making my bid list... any advice? So many firms, and I don't know anything about any of them.



Once you get grades I'd be happy to help you.

It's really hard to tell you how to do it without grades. Basically, I was around 178 so I went to chambers and basically bid the top two chambers bands in my desired practice area & desired location. I then picked the firms that I had heard good things about (from TLS and elsewhere) out of the third band.

Obviously Chambers isn't gospel and there was a lot that changed after that, but that's where I "began."

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:18 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:Quick question: Will our GPA simply be (Grade for Each Class x Number of Credits for Each Class) / Total Number of Credits? Or do they use a weird formula to give us some 155~186 "score" based on the average of our grades?



Every callback I went to where grades were calculated they did a regular excel formula. You can calculate yours the same way. For screeners, though, my guess is that they just spitball it. I was a bit below some cutoffs but they couldn't tell just from my grades.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:36 pm

.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:37 pm

Is it ok to mass mail different offices of the same firm? I've seen conflicting opinions around TLS. What say ye, UChi OCI alums?

Neal Patrick Harris
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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Neal Patrick Harris » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:39 pm

Slightly hard to pin down considering you're not interested in major markets. Practice area?

Firm strength in various practice areas vary dramatically--it's less likely firms are giant one stop shops in secondary markets.

PM me for more specific info if you're worried about anonymity.
Last edited by Neal Patrick Harris on Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Neal Patrick Harris » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Is it ok to mass mail different offices of the same firm? I've seen conflicting opinions around TLS. What say ye, UChi OCI alums?


If they're not coming to OCI, sure. I doubt they communicate.

I have no experience with this though. I had some success mass mailing but didn't mail different offices of the same firm.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:50 pm

Neal Patrick Harris wrote:Slightly hard to pin down considering you're not interested in major markets. Practice area?

Firm strength in various practice areas vary dramatically--it's less likely firms are giant one stop shops in secondary markets.

PM me for more specific info if you're worried about anonymity.

Thank you for the help, I PMed you.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Rahviveh » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:59 pm

Neal Patrick Harris wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Is it ok to mass mail different offices of the same firm? I've seen conflicting opinions around TLS. What say ye, UChi OCI alums?


If they're not coming to OCI, sure. I doubt they communicate.

I have no experience with this though. I had some success mass mailing but didn't mail different offices of the same firm.


Which market are you an expert on?

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Crowing » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:07 pm

beepboopbeep wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Can anyone remind us of the

excellent use of AD reference to communicate the word "cutoffs"


for percentiles, K&E etc


Percentiles (non-cumulative):

182+: 0.5%
180.5+: 7.2%
179+: 22.7%

K&E would presumably depend on grade distribution within our class. But if 180.5% is around 7.7% cumulative, I'd guess it's a shade north of that.


Remember this is at graduation also

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Neal Patrick Harris » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:13 pm

Rahviveh wrote:
Neal Patrick Harris wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Is it ok to mass mail different offices of the same firm? I've seen conflicting opinions around TLS. What say ye, UChi OCI alums?


If they're not coming to OCI, sure. I doubt they communicate.

I have no experience with this though. I had some success mass mailing but didn't mail different offices of the same firm.


Which market are you an expert on?


As in which market did I mass mail? I mass mailed NY because most firms I wanted in other markets were coming to OCI.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby WheninLaw » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:25 pm

beepboopbeep wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Can anyone remind us of the

excellent use of AD reference to communicate the word "cutoffs"


for percentiles, K&E etc


Percentiles (non-cumulative):

182+: 0.5%
180.5+: 7.2%
179+: 22.7%

K&E would presumably depend on grade distribution within our class. But if 180.5% is around 7.7% cumulative, I'd guess it's a shade north of that.


Totally depends on the year. Last year, K&E cutoff was 180.5; the year before, it was 181 flat. Same goes for LR.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby bearsfan23 » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:53 pm

2014 wrote:At the risk of sounding condescending, your GPA is whatever firms say it is. If they look at it and turn it into a number, that's what it is, if they plug it into excel, that's what it is. Most people will do the excel approach, but I'm a big proponent of the mindset that your GPA is more of a range than a fixed number. In terms of calculating honors, I'm sure it's excel'd.

K&E is probably 181.5ish, not positive though. Median is likely 177.5 but again, firms have no idea and don't have time to whip out a calculator so you shouldn't concern yourself with whether you are 51st percentile vs 44th or whatever because no one notices or cares. It all looks like median most likely.



Is this true? I thought median was 177.1. Median for every 1L class is 177, then LRW is 178. That's 36 credits at 177, 4 at 178. Not a big deal just want to know if I am missing something here?

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Robb » Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:06 pm

bearsfan23 wrote:
2014 wrote:At the risk of sounding condescending, your GPA is whatever firms say it is. If they look at it and turn it into a number, that's what it is, if they plug it into excel, that's what it is. Most people will do the excel approach, but I'm a big proponent of the mindset that your GPA is more of a range than a fixed number. In terms of calculating honors, I'm sure it's excel'd.

K&E is probably 181.5ish, not positive though. Median is likely 177.5 but again, firms have no idea and don't have time to whip out a calculator so you shouldn't concern yourself with whether you are 51st percentile vs 44th or whatever because no one notices or cares. It all looks like median most likely.



Is this true? I thought median was 177.1. Median for every 1L class is 177, then LRW is 178. That's 36 credits at 177, 4 at 178. Not a big deal just want to know if I am missing something here?

The way I've heard it explained (I think by kappycaft1 when I was dumbfounded by the concept) is that we're not actually on a normal distribution.

Say you have three people. These are their grades in classes 1, 2, and 3:

A: 177 180 177
B: 177 177 180
C: 180 177 177

The median for each classes is a 177. However, the median GPA for the class as a whole is actually a 178.

So, if grades are distributed more broadly above the 177 median than below (say the distribution is something like 176 177 177 177 177 177 177 178 178 179 179 179 180), the median GPA is going to be above 177 even though the median grade in each class is 177.

In short, each class median < each class mean, so median gpa > class median.
Last edited by Robb on Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Neal Patrick Harris » Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:09 pm

Robb wrote:
bearsfan23 wrote:
2014 wrote:At the risk of sounding condescending, your GPA is whatever firms say it is. If they look at it and turn it into a number, that's what it is, if they plug it into excel, that's what it is. Most people will do the excel approach, but I'm a big proponent of the mindset that your GPA is more of a range than a fixed number. In terms of calculating honors, I'm sure it's excel'd.

K&E is probably 181.5ish, not positive though. Median is likely 177.5 but again, firms have no idea and don't have time to whip out a calculator so you shouldn't concern yourself with whether you are 51st percentile vs 44th or whatever because no one notices or cares. It all looks like median most likely.



Is this true? I thought median was 177.1. Median for every 1L class is 177, then LRW is 178. That's 36 credits at 177, 4 at 178. Not a big deal just want to know if I am missing something here?

The way I've heard it explained (I think by kappycaft1 when I was dumbfounded by the concept) is that we're not actually on a normal distribution.

Say you have three people. These are their grades in classes 1, 2, and 3:

A: 177 180 177
B: 177 177 180
C: 180 177 177

The median for each classes is a 177. However, the median GPA for the class as a whole is actually a 178.

So, if grades are distributed more broadly above the 177 median than below (say the distribution is something like 176 177 177 177 177 177 177 178 178 179 179 179 180), the median GPA is going to be above 177 even though the median grade in each class is 177.


Basically this. A couple people get tripped up about this and it hits their confidence. Don't let it. If you're around 177.3 or something, employers still see that as above median (though as 2014 points out, they'll probably just see it as median).

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:30 pm

WheninLaw wrote:
beepboopbeep wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Can anyone remind us of the

excellent use of AD reference to communicate the word "cutoffs"


for percentiles, K&E etc


Percentiles (non-cumulative):

182+: 0.5%
180.5+: 7.2%
179+: 22.7%

K&E would presumably depend on grade distribution within our class. But if 180.5% is around 7.7% cumulative, I'd guess it's a shade north of that.


Totally depends on the year. Last year, K&E cutoff was 180.5; the year before, it was 181 flat. Same goes for LR.


Sure hope LR cutoff is lower this year since I'm sitting in the lower end of the typical range. What % of the class grades on?

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby 2014 » Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:52 am

bearsfan23 wrote:
2014 wrote:At the risk of sounding condescending, your GPA is whatever firms say it is. If they look at it and turn it into a number, that's what it is, if they plug it into excel, that's what it is. Most people will do the excel approach, but I'm a big proponent of the mindset that your GPA is more of a range than a fixed number. In terms of calculating honors, I'm sure it's excel'd.

K&E is probably 181.5ish, not positive though. Median is likely 177.5 but again, firms have no idea and don't have time to whip out a calculator so you shouldn't concern yourself with whether you are 51st percentile vs 44th or whatever because no one notices or cares. It all looks like median most likely.



Is this true? I thought median was 177.1. Median for every 1L class is 177, then LRW is 178. That's 36 credits at 177, 4 at 178. Not a big deal just want to know if I am missing something here?

Outliers matter a lot as a 1L and there are more high outliers than low by the nature of our system. Most people will have a smattering of grades around Median and 1 that is high and it will drag their total GPA over 177. Teachers can/do seem to use 180+ more than 174- so it's a necessary result. I heard a well known teacher say one time that we were the only school that manages to make like 75% of the class above median.


As was pointed out above though, my goal is NOT to freak anyone out or lower your self esteem. I've said early and often on here that "median" in a firm's eye is often a giant ass band from 176.5 - 178.5. It is so easy to get bogged down in minutiae ("Omg I'm at 177.9 it would be soooo much better if I hit 178 :(") but the transcript is just an incoherent pile of numbers that very bright people can only ballpark with mild accuracy.

Keep in mind that firms get your transcript when you walk in the door and not a minute before and for the vast vast majority of them, they have decided whether or not to call you back by the time you get up and shake their hand. Notice how there is no time to whip out a calculator in there(or even look at the transcript in many cases).

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:11 am

poof.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby 2014 » Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:24 am

Kind of depends on LR. If you just miss it you risk your grades looking more median than you might like, if you get it they will probably be seen as higher than they are. Assuming LR I think Munger is out, Boies probably mostly because of office size and the rest are feasible. Without LR I think both Irell and WLRK are reaches but worth the interview. Gibson is a target regardless and Keker is too small/idiosyncratic for me to make an educated guess.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:33 am

Joining the aspie train. 181 flat, 2 years shitty WE. Did writing comp but who knows. Would any of these firms be wasted bids? Targeting lit/reg in DC or CA.

Boies DC
Cleary DC
Covington
Gibson DC/LA
MTO
Sidley DC
W&C

Also, regarding GPA: if we have a weird mix of median (177-179) and higher 180s (183-184), is that going to look worse than someone who has straight lower 180s (180-182) but has the same approximate GPA? Either for OCI or clerkship applications?

-Septimus Warren Smith

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby WheninLaw » Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Joining the aspie train. 181 flat, 2 years shitty WE. Did writing comp but who knows. Would any of these firms be wasted bids? Targeting lit/reg in DC or CA.

Boies DC
Cleary DC
Covington
Gibson DC/LA
MTO
Sidley DC
W&C

Also, regarding GPA: if we have a weird mix of median (177-179) and higher 180s (183-184), is that going to look worse than someone who has straight lower 180s (180-182) but has the same approximate GPA? Either for OCI or clerkship applications?

-Septimus Warren Smith


You will grade-on to LR, and all of these firms are in reach. Being a K&E scholar (if you become one) will do wonders at MTO. Nobody will care about the "weird mix" of grades. I had similar grades and targeted CA/DC, so happy to help in PM.

Edit: be careful with your success. You probably knew the answer to your question before you asked it. But well done.




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