UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Here are my thoughts on firms for reference (not gospel, but just to give you an idea)

Wachtell: 179+LR
Cravath: I'd recommend 178+ before you bid this highly (but you can probably snag this off of add/drop or late on your bidlist). Be able to speak intelligently about what's going on in corporate law. I've heard of some with median getting CSM.
S&C: They hire down to median and have a huge summer class to fill. IF you have good grades personality requirements drop, if you have slightly above median grades, it's important that the interviewer likes you.
Skadden: Median or slightly above median is fine.
DPW: I've heard of median grades, but usually 178.5s and 179s get CBs here. They're more picky.
Weil: Grades don't seem to be important, but they don't call many people back.
STB: 177.5+
Cleary: Grades seem more important here than with other peer firms.
Kirkland: Slightly above median is fine for NY.

As for the rest, Gibson/Boies are really the only grade conscious v20s. Generally, the sliding scale of grades+personality will move downward as you move down vault rankings with NYC firms (there are some exceptions).


This is awesome - thanks a ton. Not an above-quoted anon but the advice is much appreciated in any case. Anyone have insight on the same question re: CA firms?


I bid exclusively CA, so I can be of help here. It's is much more nuanced - most importantly, what part of CA? LA, SF, and SV are all different beasts. Think of them as three completely different markets

(and anyone bidding CA can certainly PM me - I'm happy to be open with my bid list, grades, etc. I will say, however, that 1L's should NOT be worrying about this stuff now. Focus on spring finals).

edit: realized this is anon - this is WhenInLaw


Since we're on the topic, what do you guys recommend as far as the timeline for preparing for spring finals?

Last quarter I put off studying for finals until the memo was done. I'm guessing most people did the same thing. I don't have my grades yet so I might regret it but at least in terms of stress/workload it worked out well. Can I do the same thing for spring finals or should we be preparing earlier?



OP here: Happy to answer your question on the answering questions thread, but let's keep this to jobs since we're in the employment forum.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:29 am

FYI NY People: those NYC grade cutoffs from the earlier post are wrong. All of those firms except Wachtell (i.e., entire NYC V20, minus maybe Boies) will take you even if you are sub 177. Can confirm multiple CBs at V2-10 with sub-median grades.

Obviously if you are 178+ you have better odds at all of them, but whether you not you get a CB at those firms once you have passed the 177.5 mark will turn almost entirely on the interview. There is no distinction between grade selectivity at, for example, Cravath or Kirkland.

Edit: sorry, I just re-read that post, and I don't think the poster mentioned those grades as cutoffs, but the main point that you should take away here is that there is no difference in grade requirements for V2-20 minus Boies.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:41 am

Anonymous User wrote:FYI NY People: those NYC grade cutoffs from the earlier post are wrong. All of those firms except Wachtell (i.e., entire NYC V20, minus maybe Boies) will take you even if you are sub 177. Can confirm multiple CBs at V2-10 with sub-median grades.

Obviously if you are 178+ you have better odds at all of them, but whether you not you get a CB at those firms once you have passed the 177.5 mark will turn almost entirely on the interview. There is no distinction between grade selectivity at, for example, Cravath or Kirkland.

Edit: sorry, I just re-read that post, and I don't think the poster mentioned those grades as cutoffs, but the main point that you should take away here is that there is no difference in grade requirements for V2-20 minus Boies.


Previous anon you're criticizing. Those are the "ideal" grades to feel comfortable bidding them. I mentioned the possibility of outliers, I just didn't want everyone with 176s to be bidding v10 firms exclusively.

I do, however, think there are disparities between grade selectivity between Cravath and Kirkland NY, but both sides of this are probably equally hard to prove considering there are so many variables to a hiring process. IMO, 1Ls should have in mind that some firms are slightly more selective than others but they shouldnt let these distinctions control their bidding process or interviewing strategy heavily.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:46 am

Is Chambers the only cr for researching firms? I feel like there are some intangibles that don't really come through in Chambers. It's good for practice areas and stuff but not really for knowing Boise might be really grade selective or finding out about relevant lifestyle/culture differences. Is there anything else you guys would suggest for this in addition to OCI cutoffs? Thanks.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:49 am

Any hope for a K-JD with a 175 average who wants to work in NYC or Silicon Valley?
Last edited by Anonymous User on Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:49 am

Anonymous User wrote:Is Chambers the only cr for researching firms? I feel like there are some intangibles that don't really come through in Chambers. It's good for practice areas and stuff but not really for knowing Boise might be really grade selective or finding out about relevant lifestyle/culture differences. Is there anything else you guys would suggest for this in addition to OCI cutoffs? Thanks.


Basically TLS. Just use the search function. Firms design their vault profiles, so you can go there to see what they like to advertise about themselves. Overall though, TLS has multiple threads on almost every top firm..

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:50 am

Anonymous User wrote:Any hope for a K-JD with a 175 average who wants to work in NYC?


I know someone who's done this. At a firm paying 160k in NYC. Just bid very very conservatively and probably leave out other markets and you should be OK if you can interview. Follow the networking/interview advice ITT

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:53 am

Anonymous User wrote:Any hope for a K-JD with a 175 average who wants to work in NYC or Silicon Valley?


Dude, you have only had two exams that make up like 13% of your total grade. Worry less about this and more about pulling your grades up.

For SV: Depends. Are you IP? Are you URM? Any ties? Corporate or Lit? It's possible, but you're getting into dangerous territory where an interviewew will not label you "average grades" like the other 75% of the class.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:55 am

Anonymous User wrote:Any hope for a K-JD with a 175 average who wants to work in NYC or Silicon Valley?

I get the question... but I just want to jump in and say that, regardless of the answers, please don't be stressing out. We still don't know 81% of our GPA going into OCI; 49% of it is still completely up in the air.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:59 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Any hope for a K-JD with a 175 average who wants to work in NYC or Silicon Valley?


Dude, you have only had two exams that make up like 13% of your total grade. Worry less about this and more about pulling your grades up.

For SV: Depends. Are you IP? Are you URM? Any ties? Corporate or Lit? It's possible, but you're getting into dangerous territory where an interviewew will not label you "average grades" like the other 75% of the class.


I don't think winter quarter exams went well, so I'm preparing for the worst. Not IP or URM, from Silicon Valley, Lit.

Should I give up now and move to a different market?

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby WheninLaw » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:02 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Any hope for a K-JD with a 175 average who wants to work in NYC or Silicon Valley?


Dude, you have only had two exams that make up like 13% of your total grade. Worry less about this and more about pulling your grades up.

For SV: Depends. Are you IP? Are you URM? Any ties? Corporate or Lit? It's possible, but you're getting into dangerous territory where an interviewew will not label you "average grades" like the other 75% of the class.


I don't think winter quarter exams went well, so I'm preparing for the worst. Not IP or URM, from Silicon Valley, Lit.

Should I give up now and move to a different market?


I'm poster a little above (did not mean to be Anon). Not sure I would give up on SV, but I'd focus *significantly* more on NY. SV is a small market, and is moving primarily towards IP/corporate work. Ties will not do very much for you there.

50%+ of your grade is still not determined. There is still time to learn how to take a law school exam. I'd be happy to help you, as I'm sure most of the upperclassmen would be.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:03 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Is Chambers the only cr for researching firms? I feel like there are some intangibles that don't really come through in Chambers. It's good for practice areas and stuff but not really for knowing Boise might be really grade selective or finding out about relevant lifestyle/culture differences. Is there anything else you guys would suggest for this in addition to OCI cutoffs? Thanks.


Basically TLS. Just use the search function. Firms design their vault profiles, so you can go there to see what they like to advertise about themselves. Overall though, TLS has multiple threads on almost every top firm..


That's what I thought. Thanks.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:10 am

WheninLaw wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Any hope for a K-JD with a 175 average who wants to work in NYC or Silicon Valley?


Dude, you have only had two exams that make up like 13% of your total grade. Worry less about this and more about pulling your grades up.

For SV: Depends. Are you IP? Are you URM? Any ties? Corporate or Lit? It's possible, but you're getting into dangerous territory where an interviewew will not label you "average grades" like the other 75% of the class.


I don't think winter quarter exams went well, so I'm preparing for the worst. Not IP or URM, from Silicon Valley, Lit.

Should I give up now and move to a different market?


I'm poster a little above (did not mean to be Anon). Not sure I would give up on SV, but I'd focus *significantly* more on NY. SV is a small market, and is moving primarily towards IP/corporate work. Ties will not do very much for you there.

50%+ of your grade is still not determined. There is still time to learn how to take a law school exam. I'd be happy to help you, as I'm sure most of the upperclassmen would be.


So much for SV. I don't know anything about corporate work. What about SF? It's close but I heard it's not the same.

Do you have any advice on how to get above median scores? I got a bad grade in one class and need to do better.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:19 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Here are my thoughts on firms for reference (not gospel, but just to give you an idea)

Wachtell: 179+LR
Cravath: I'd recommend 178+ before you bid this highly (but you can probably snag this off of add/drop or late on your bidlist). Be able to speak intelligently about what's going on in corporate law. I've heard of some with median getting CSM.
S&C: They hire down to median and have a huge summer class to fill. IF you have good grades personality requirements drop, if you have slightly above median grades, it's important that the interviewer likes you.
Skadden: Median or slightly above median is fine.
DPW: I've heard of median grades, but usually 178.5s and 179s get CBs here. They're more picky.
Weil: Grades don't seem to be important, but they don't call many people back.
STB: 177.5+
Cleary: Grades seem more important here than with other peer firms.
Kirkland: Slightly above median is fine for NY.

As for the rest, Gibson/Boies are really the only grade conscious v20s. Generally, the sliding scale of grades+personality will move downward as you move down vault rankings with NYC firms (there are some exceptions).


This is awesome - thanks a ton. Not an above-quoted anon but the advice is much appreciated in any case. Anyone have insight on the same question re: CA firms?


I bid exclusively CA, so I can be of help here. It's is much more nuanced - most importantly, what part of CA? LA, SF, and SV are all different beasts. Think of them as three completely different markets

(and anyone bidding CA can certainly PM me - I'm happy to be open with my bid list, grades, etc. I will say, however, that 1L's should NOT be worrying about this stuff now. Focus on spring finals).

edit: realized this is anon - this is WhenInLaw


Since we're on the topic, what do you guys recommend as far as the timeline for preparing for spring finals?

Last quarter I put off studying for finals until the memo was done. I'm guessing most people did the same thing. I don't have my grades yet so I might regret it but at least in terms of stress/workload it worked out well. Can I do the same thing for spring finals or should we be preparing earlier?

Less concerned about staying on topic than OP - I did this for spring finals and my grades actually improved over Fall/Winter. Taking practice tests a little earlier might be a good idea, but the outline timeline will be similar to previous quarters.


Re: NYC being attainable across the board below 177 (with the WLRK/Boies caveats). I largely agree but note that way way more is at play than grades for the people who ended up with a lot of V10 success despite being median/below. Across the board you can assume they were great interviewers, likely had at least some sort of work experience, and diversity/quality of undergrad institution can also play a role.

No one should feel too discouraged if they lack one or more of those factors, I just don't want to see people at 176 using bids at firms where the odds are heavily against them (though not 0%).

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby WheninLaw » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:22 am

Anonymous User wrote:So much for SV. I don't know anything about corporate work. What about SF? It's close but I heard it's not the same.

Do you have any advice on how to get above median scores? I got a bad grade in one class and need to do better.


Yeah, 1L does not give you much experience with corporate work. If you are willing to give it a shot, I think SV is a possibility. SF is probably not happening with those grades. It is too small of a legal marketed and too heavily targeted.

Sure, but I think that advice is better done as a PM. Feel free to shoot me one.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:58 pm

How do employers at OCI look at grades? For example, LRW has the same grade listed under all three quarters, but barely has any impact on your GPA. Are they going to realize that it barely means anything in terms of GPA and value it accordingly? Or are they going to see it three times and think it means a lot?

I ask because, if things keep going as they have and as I expect them to go, I am going to end up with a not so great grade (175-) in LRW, and pretty good grades (181+) in my other classes. Obviously can't be certain as to the latter point because, well, we only have two grades back so far. In any case, don't really know why I suck so much at LRW... or what this means for me in the future.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby 2014 » Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:How do employers at OCI look at grades? For example, LRW has the same grade listed under all three quarters, but barely has any impact on your GPA. Are they going to realize that it barely means anything in terms of GPA and value it accordingly? Or are they going to see it three times and think it means a lot?

I ask because, if things keep going as they have and as I expect them to go, I am going to end up with a not so great grade (175-) in LRW, and pretty good grades (181+) in my other classes. Obviously can't be certain as to the latter point because, well, we only have two grades back so far. In any case, don't really know why I suck so much at LRW... or what this means for me in the future.

You hand them the form in person and 90% will not look at it while you are there in my experience. So how they view it is somewhat of an unknown. I highly doubt that the attorneys who show up whip out a calculator to do a weighted average so at best they are eyeballing it at least that day. Plus CBs can go out within hours of your screener so in those cases it's even less likely anyone combed through it.

That being said you can count on your transcript ending up in recruiting's hands at some point and my gut feeling is that they do calculate it. Some people said their GPA was written on their résumé during CBs and recruiting probably did that.

Point being for screeners-->cb writing is marginally more valuable because of how it shows up and it is what it is. At the cb stage your GPA is probably calculated. Sorry that's not better news, if I could do it over I would have gunned the hell out of LRW.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby UnicornHunter » Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:58 pm

2014 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:How do employers at OCI look at grades? For example, LRW has the same grade listed under all three quarters, but barely has any impact on your GPA. Are they going to realize that it barely means anything in terms of GPA and value it accordingly? Or are they going to see it three times and think it means a lot?

I ask because, if things keep going as they have and as I expect them to go, I am going to end up with a not so great grade (175-) in LRW, and pretty good grades (181+) in my other classes. Obviously can't be certain as to the latter point because, well, we only have two grades back so far. In any case, don't really know why I suck so much at LRW... or what this means for me in the future.

You hand them the form in person and 90% will not look at it while you are there in my experience. So how they view it is somewhat of an unknown. I highly doubt that the attorneys who show up whip out a calculator to do a weighted average so at best they are eyeballing it at least that day. Plus CBs can go out within hours of your screener so in those cases it's even less likely anyone combed through it.

That being said you can count on your transcript ending up in recruiting's hands at some point and my gut feeling is that they do calculate it. Some people said their GPA was written on their résumé during CBs and recruiting probably did that.

Point being for screeners-->cb writing is marginally more valuable because of how it shows up and it is what it is. At the cb stage your GPA is probably calculated. Sorry that's not better news, if I could do it over I would have gunned the hell out of LRW.


It's gems like this that keep me coming back to TLS. Definitely good to know as a 0L.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby 20141023 » Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:13 pm

.
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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:22 pm

2014 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:How do employers at OCI look at grades? For example, LRW has the same grade listed under all three quarters, but barely has any impact on your GPA. Are they going to realize that it barely means anything in terms of GPA and value it accordingly? Or are they going to see it three times and think it means a lot?

I ask because, if things keep going as they have and as I expect them to go, I am going to end up with a not so great grade (175-) in LRW, and pretty good grades (181+) in my other classes. Obviously can't be certain as to the latter point because, well, we only have two grades back so far. In any case, don't really know why I suck so much at LRW... or what this means for me in the future.

You hand them the form in person and 90% will not look at it while you are there in my experience. So how they view it is somewhat of an unknown. I highly doubt that the attorneys who show up whip out a calculator to do a weighted average so at best they are eyeballing it at least that day. Plus CBs can go out within hours of your screener so in those cases it's even less likely anyone combed through it.

That being said you can count on your transcript ending up in recruiting's hands at some point and my gut feeling is that they do calculate it. Some people said their GPA was written on their résumé during CBs and recruiting probably did that.

Point being for screeners-->cb writing is marginally more valuable because of how it shows up and it is what it is. At the cb stage your GPA is probably calculated. Sorry that's not better news, if I could do it over I would have gunned the hell out of LRW.


Alum here who does biglaw interviewing. At UChi, I do calculate weighted GPAs (easy with Excel) just because I know the school's grading system and I want to get it right. Maybe non-alum interviewers don't care as much and just eyeball it (but they don't understand the grades anyways).

Exactly how a low LRW grade is viewed is probably highly idiosyncratic. For myself, I'm always of two minds -- I think it's important, because writing is important, but I also don't take it too seriously, because at least when I was a student I didn't think that Bigelow grading was very consistent and didn't have much rhyme or reason to it. So for me, a 177 in LRW for a student who otherwise had a 180 average would not be a concern at all. Just wouldn't register. A 175, though, probably would be a flag to me. "Good grades but can't write" is not a good label to have, even if it isn't true due to aforementioned inconsistent grading. (Conversely, a stellar LRW score probably wouldn't make up much for a low GPA.)

For firms that require writing samples, maybe it's a little different because they can get your own take on your writing. But that's how I view it when I interview at U of C.

On focusing on LRW at the expense of substantive classes, I don't know. I'm not sure I really believe there's a tradeoff because you aren't working on LRW at the same time that you are really studying for finals. The week a memo is due, sure, you will be behind in your Contracts reading. But you shouldn't be on such a razor's edge that the single week of being behind ruins you come exam time.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby AspiringAcademic » Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:33 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:I would be careful with how you interpret that, though; I don't think that 2014 is saying gun LRW at the expense of your other classes (which can easily happen because LRW can be a huge time-sink). That user will probably do just fine since 181+ grades are top 10%, and a low LRW grade isn't as likely to keep you off of LR if you're shooting for that, whereas a low grade in one (or more) of your substantive classes (especially the 2-quarter ones) can.

181 grades would get them more than top 10%. I think the K&E cutoff (top 5%) tends to be a hair below that, though I'm not sure. The real trick is consistently pulling grades that high.

I'll defer to the anon on the importance of LRW for OCI. My impression from class last year, though, is that a lot of people who were unhappy with their first memo grade ended up with dead median after the brief. So it should be doable to improve. You're definitely right about not letting it take too much away from other classes, though. Don't blow off multiple weeks of reading or anything.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby 2014 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:45 pm

Agree w/ not doing LRW at the expense of other classes but if my experience is like the norm I have more free time than I know what to do with both as a 1L and now as a 2L. It comes in waves obviously, but there is plenty of it overall. I would probably not change my work routine too much for doctrinal classes but I would have allocated more of that free time and procrastinated less on the memo and brief because in LRW more so than other classes effort correlates with results (though still not perfectly).

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:55 pm

I don't know if grinding in LRW is really worth it. I'm pretty sure something like a 175- is actually pretty hard to pull off. The curve seems pretty tight, so what you get out of additional work is questionable at best. I didn't do great at all on the brief and it didn't seem to make much of a difference. I'd really just make sure the form is perfect without grammar errors, but beyond that I don't know.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I don't know if grinding in LRW is really worth it. I'm pretty sure something like a 175- is actually pretty hard to pull off. The curve seems pretty tight, so what you get out of additional work is questionable at best. I didn't do great at all on the brief and it didn't seem to make much of a difference. I'd really just make sure the form is perfect without grammar errors, but beyond that I don't know.


So say you get above median on both the memo and the brief? Will you still get median pwned? I did pretty well on my memo and I'm planning on putting the same amount of effort into my brief. There has to be some higher-than-median grades available otherwise that's pretty dumb.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I don't know if grinding in LRW is really worth it. I'm pretty sure something like a 175- is actually pretty hard to pull off. The curve seems pretty tight, so what you get out of additional work is questionable at best. I didn't do great at all on the brief and it didn't seem to make much of a difference. I'd really just make sure the form is perfect without grammar errors, but beyond that I don't know.


So say you get above median on both the memo and the brief? Will you still get median pwned? I did pretty well on my memo and I'm planning on putting the same amount of effort into my brief. There has to be some higher-than-median grades available otherwise that's pretty dumb.



I got a 182 so it's possible to do well. Let's try to stay on topic and not abuse anon to talk about LRW in the employment forum.

1Ls: Your priority should be grades right now. Spring quarter sucks and you should be working on grades rather than worrying about employment--there's plenty of time for that this summer.




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