UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Am I wrong in thinking you need LR level grades to work at Irell or MTO?


Assuming a white male, I'd say you want a minimum of 179.5 to have a shot at an Irell CB, and 180 for MTO. LR helps with Irell and is mandatory for MTO. Moreover, once you have the CB at Irell, you can generally expect the offer. Not the case at MTO (since the entire firm needs to vote).

What about Gibson?

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Am I wrong in thinking you need LR level grades to work at Irell or MTO?


Assuming a white male, I'd say you want a minimum of 179.5 to have a shot at an Irell CB, and 180 for MTO. LR helps with Irell and is mandatory for MTO. Moreover, once you have the CB at Irell, you can generally expect the offer. Not the case at MTO (since the entire firm needs to vote).

What about Gibson?


Depends on office. Considering you asked about Irell/MTO, I'll presume Los Angeles. Gibson will dip lower, but with a much higher focus on fit and personality. There were people that got CBs at Irell/MTO but did not get one at Gibson. My shot-in-the-dark guess is a minimum of 178.5+? Maybe 179+. A smattering of 180+'s on the transcript would probably help, as opposed to straight 178s and 179s.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Am I wrong in thinking you need LR level grades to work at Irell or MTO?


Assuming a white male, I'd say you want a minimum of 179.5 to have a shot at an Irell CB, and 180 for MTO. LR helps with Irell and is mandatory for MTO. Moreover, once you have the CB at Irell, you can generally expect the offer. Not the case at MTO (since the entire firm needs to vote).

What about Gibson?


Depends on office. Considering you asked about Irell/MTO, I'll presume Los Angeles. Gibson will dip lower, but with a much higher focus on fit and personality. There were people that got CBs at Irell/MTO but did not get one at Gibson. My shot-in-the-dark guess is a minimum of 178.5+? Maybe 179+. A smattering of 180+'s on the transcript would probably help, as opposed to straight 178s and 179s.


Not the same anon. But was curious about the smaller Gibson offices, not LA. Still that's very helpful, thank you!

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:11 pm

Happy to help. SF office is tiny, and DC generally is selective, so might be even higher. I know working at Gibson SF/DC is LR or great grades. No idea about the other offices.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Since we're on the topic, and because I noticed White & Case on the Firm-Wise list, I have a quick question (and I am pretty much outing myself by asking this, but I still want to stay anon just in case). I was talking with OCS about them recently, and it seems like something happened between them and UChicago a while back (maybe they no-offered a lot of our students or something?). In a recent email, OCS mentioned the following:
UChicago OCS wrote:White & Case doesn’t even recruit here anymore, save for the DC office. They could never compete with other NYC firms or national firms – no one would accept an offer there.

Is there something about this firm that I should know that I don't?


Not really, but it doesn't really matter for you because it seems almost impossible to get a callback there (I had a contact there a few years back and they talked to recruiting and recommended they bring me in for a callback, and I didn't even get a ding).

They don't seem to be anything special from what I gathered from my contact, and attorneys there seemed willing to say pretty negative things about their experience--so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

There are other firms like Cahill that don't come to OCI that still recruit from our school.


Not sure where this poster is getting their information from. There is one person in 2L class going to W&C NYC, which they got outside of OCI. So it's definitely doable.

They were correct to note that there are many NYC firms with (relatively) big summer classes who do not come to OCI. Cahill is a prime example, along with W&C, Wilkie, Orrick, Chadbourne and Park, Schulte, Kaye Scholer, Bingham, and others. Remember that even a non-NYC headquartered firm might still have 5-15 summers in NYC office, which is more than some of the Chicago firms have in their headquarters (ie, Jenner, one of the biggest Chicago firms, says they're expecting 14 2L's in their Chicago office in 2014 on NALP, while Orrick expects 12 in NYC despite being an SF firm).

These firms don't come to recruit at UChicago because people don't accept their offers. Think about it -- we send about 15-20% of our class to NYC. That's around 30-40 people a year. In the current 2L class, about 17 people are going to V3's: Wachtell (3), Cravath (8), and S&C (6). That leaves only a handful to go to the remaining top NYC firms (4 at STB, 1 at Skadden, 3 at DPW, 1 at Paul Weiss, 1 at Cleary, 3 at Debevoise, 1 at Boies Schiller, 1 at W&C). So that's 31 at V20 firms, and those are only the people I've heard of! There are maybe 5-10 people more going to NYC at non-V20 firms. So it makes sense that those firms don't come to OCI; its not worth their time.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:25 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Since we're on the topic, and because I noticed White & Case on the Firm-Wise list, I have a quick question (and I am pretty much outing myself by asking this, but I still want to stay anon just in case). I was talking with OCS about them recently, and it seems like something happened between them and UChicago a while back (maybe they no-offered a lot of our students or something?). In a recent email, OCS mentioned the following:
UChicago OCS wrote:White & Case doesn’t even recruit here anymore, save for the DC office. They could never compete with other NYC firms or national firms – no one would accept an offer there.

Is there something about this firm that I should know that I don't?


Not really, but it doesn't really matter for you because it seems almost impossible to get a callback there (I had a contact there a few years back and they talked to recruiting and recommended they bring me in for a callback, and I didn't even get a ding).

They don't seem to be anything special from what I gathered from my contact, and attorneys there seemed willing to say pretty negative things about their experience--so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

There are other firms like Cahill that don't come to OCI that still recruit from our school.


Not sure where this poster is getting their information from. There is one person in 2L class going to W&C NYC, which they got outside of OCI. So it's definitely doable.

They were correct to note that there are many NYC firms with (relatively) big summer classes who do not come to OCI. Cahill is a prime example, along with W&C, Wilkie, Orrick, Chadbourne and Park, Schulte, Kaye Scholer, Bingham, and others. Remember that even a non-NYC headquartered firm might still have 5-15 summers in NYC office, which is more than some of the Chicago firms have in their headquarters (ie, Jenner, one of the biggest Chicago firms, says they're expecting 14 2L's in their Chicago office in 2014 on NALP, while Orrick expects 12 in NYC despite being an SF firm).

These firms don't come to recruit at UChicago because people don't accept their offers. Think about it -- we send about 15-20% of our class to NYC. That's around 30-40 people a year. In the current 2L class, about 17 people are going to V3's: Wachtell (3), Cravath (8), and S&C (6). That leaves only a handful to go to the remaining top NYC firms (4 at STB, 1 at Skadden, 3 at DPW, 1 at Paul Weiss, 1 at Cleary, 3 at Debevoise, 1 at Boies Schiller, 1 at W&C). So that's 31 at V20 firms, and those are only the people I've heard of! There are maybe 5-10 people more going to NYC at non-V20 firms. So it makes sense that those firms don't come to OCI; its not worth their time.


A quick look at the who worked where list tells me that there are lots of people in NYC that aren't at V20 firms.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:56 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Since we're on the topic, and because I noticed White & Case on the Firm-Wise list, I have a quick question (and I am pretty much outing myself by asking this, but I still want to stay anon just in case). I was talking with OCS about them recently, and it seems like something happened between them and UChicago a while back (maybe they no-offered a lot of our students or something?). In a recent email, OCS mentioned the following:
UChicago OCS wrote:White & Case doesn’t even recruit here anymore, save for the DC office. They could never compete with other NYC firms or national firms – no one would accept an offer there.

Not really, but it doesn't really matter for you because it seems almost impossible to get a callback there (I had a contact there a few years back and they talked to recruiting and recommended they bring me in for a callback, and I didn't even get a ding).

They don't seem to be anything special from what I gathered from my contact, and attorneys there seemed willing to say pretty negative things about their experience--so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

There are other firms like Cahill that don't come to OCI that still recruit from our school.


Not sure where this poster is getting their information from. There is one person in 2L class going to W&C NYC, which they got outside of OCI. So it's definitely doable.

They were correct to note that there are many NYC firms with (relatively) big summer classes who do not come to OCI. Cahill is a prime example, along with W&C, Wilkie, Orrick, Chadbourne and Park, Schulte, Kaye Scholer, Bingham, and others. Remember that even a non-NYC headquartered firm might still have 5-15 summers in NYC office, which is more than some of the Chicago firms have in their headquarters (ie, Jenner, one of the biggest Chicago firms, says they're expecting 14 2L's in their Chicago office in 2014 on NALP, while Orrick expects 12 in NYC despite being an SF firm).

These firms don't come to recruit at UChicago because people don't accept their offers. Think about it -- we send about 15-20% of our class to NYC. That's around 30-40 people a year. In the current 2L class, about 17 people are going to V3's: Wachtell (3), Cravath (8), and S&C (6). That leaves only a handful to go to the remaining top NYC firms (4 at STB, 1 at Skadden, 3 at DPW, 1 at Paul Weiss, 1 at Cleary, 3 at Debevoise, 1 at Boies Schiller, 1 at W&C). So that's 31 at V20 firms, and those are only the people I've heard of! There are maybe 5-10 people more going to NYC at non-V20 firms. So it makes sense that those firms don't come to OCI; its not worth their time.


A quick look at the who worked where list tells me that there are lots of people in NYC that aren't at V20 firms.


I was talking about the upcoming summer, so we don't have a who worked where list yet. Hence my caveat that "these are only the people that I've HEARD about."

But even looking at last year, there were only 12 2L summers at non-V20 NYC firms. And included in that were solid NYC firms like Milbank, WilmerHale, Shearman and Sterling, Fried Frank, and Cadwalader. I actually think last years numbers show that my original post is 100% on point.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:50 am

Anonymous User wrote:
I was talking about the upcoming summer, so we don't have a who worked where list yet. Hence my caveat that "these are only the people that I've HEARD about."

But even looking at last year, there were only 12 2L summers at non-V20 NYC firms. And included in that were solid NYC firms like Milbank, WilmerHale, Shearman and Sterling, Fried Frank, and Cadwalader. I actually think last years numbers show that my original post is 100% on point.



Great. Now explain why people would take the mentioned firms over white and case (which is v20...)

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby caryatis » Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:57 am

Sorry if this is the wrong forum, but has anyone worked as a parttime summer RA while living outside Chicago? If so, do professors expect you to be available during regular 9-5 hours, or is it more flexible?

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:35 pm

caryatis wrote:Sorry if this is the wrong forum, but has anyone worked as a parttime summer RA while living outside Chicago? If so, do professors expect you to be available during regular 9-5 hours, or is it more flexible?


Typically more flexible. Maybe some are different, but typically your RA work is going to be pretty independent, more like they give you an assignment and you work on it over the course of several days or a week, not like they are constantly barraging you with questions and tasks. (And in any case, what professor works regular 9-5 hours over the summer?)

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Mal Reynolds » Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
I was talking about the upcoming summer, so we don't have a who worked where list yet. Hence my caveat that "these are only the people that I've HEARD about."

But even looking at last year, there were only 12 2L summers at non-V20 NYC firms. And included in that were solid NYC firms like Milbank, WilmerHale, Shearman and Sterling, Fried Frank, and Cadwalader. I actually think last years numbers show that my original post is 100% on point.



Great. Now explain why people would take the mentioned firms over white and case (which is v20...)


Because people aren't automatons that pick firms based solely on vault ranking?

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
I was talking about the upcoming summer, so we don't have a who worked where list yet. Hence my caveat that "these are only the people that I've HEARD about."

But even looking at last year, there were only 12 2L summers at non-V20 NYC firms. And included in that were solid NYC firms like Milbank, WilmerHale, Shearman and Sterling, Fried Frank, and Cadwalader. I actually think last years numbers show that my original post is 100% on point.



Great. Now explain why people would take the mentioned firms over white and case (which is v20...)


Oh obviously choosing by Vault rank is entirely ridiculous. The V20 distinction etc. is really not the point. I was just trying to show why it makes sense that so many good NYC firms (including W&C, among others) don't come to OCI, despite being willing to hire UChi students. That was the only point of my post -- to explain the observation someone made earlier that W&C doesn't come because no one will take their offers.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:58 pm

This is the OP that was asking about W&C. Thanks for the information.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:My first piece of advice is to go to firm receptions, but don't join the herd of gunners surrounding the hiring partner. S/he won't care or remember you. Find an attorney that you click with and make a connection and get a business card (partners probably have more pull, but associates are usually easier to connect with and they usually give the most authentic answers). An easy way to do this is to come up with a practice area you're interested in and find someone who works in that area. Ask questions about it and show genuine interest. If there's no one at the firm in that area, feel free to mention the interest (attorneys will often say "let me put you in touch with X who's in that area").

Email them within the next few days and say something along the lines of "It was great meeting you and talking about XYZ. I really enjoyed the reception and wanted to thank you for the time you spent speaking with me. I'm quite swamped with schoolwork right now, but I was hoping you'd be willing to get lunch or coffee some time this summer. I'd love to ask some more pointed questions about [practice area, firm, etc.]. Keep a document where you store these names and set up coffee/lunch with the attorneys over the summer. Lots of attorneys get coffee in the morning and are willing to do so before work. It's worth mentioning that you can cold-email alum and they are often willing to go to meetings like this.

At the meeting, talk about culture and (if you're comfortable with it) ask the questions that you can't ask at OCI (lifestyle, partnership prospects, etc). Don't ask them in abrasive ways like "do you think you have a shot at becoming partner?," but say things like "what are your career goals?" Other stock questions:
-"How often do you spend time with colleagues outside work"
-What's your favorite thing about [practice area]?
-What do you think makes your firm unique? (You'll usually get some bullshit answer about culture, but pay attention to how they describe it)
-Could you walk me through your typical day? (Most will say something like "my days are never typical" and then go on to explain what his agenda for the day is/was)

Ask follow up questions, be personable, establish a connection. Ask questions you're genuinely interested in. If you're interested in work/life balance, ask about it. If you're interested in early experience, ask about it.

At OCI, this gives you 1) information about the firm that most people don't have (if you say something that isn't on a firm's website in response to the "why our firm" question, you're streets ahead), 2) a name to drop, 3) presence at the firm's reception, 4) a believable story about firm culture (most interviewees will mention "culture" in response to the "why our firm" question, but most can't actually describe it or give evidence that they would fit in), and 5) if you really like a firm, you can email your contact before your interview and ask for last minute advice (I did this with a few and most offered to put in a good word for me with the hiring committee).

Eventually you'll start to notice when attorneys are feeding you BS answers or when they are being genuine about something. You'll start to see the differences and similarities between firm cultures/practices and you can start figuring out which ones you could see yourself at. Most people at OCI just bid every firm they have heard of, and half of the interviews don't work out for "fit" reasons. By eliminating firms that you don't like, you're also eliminating firms that wouldn't hire you because you wouldn't fit in.

It's kind of fun to see an interviewer's face light up when you answer the "why our firm" answer with something that genuinely distinguishes the firm from it's competition.

The strangest question I was asked during a callback was, "how did you decide which firms to bid during OCI?" Answering with this process is an excellent way to show that you're someone who does their homework.



Bumping this. 1Ls, keep it in mind while you think about receptions.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby caryatis » Sat Apr 05, 2014 7:30 pm

caryatis wrote:
Sorry if this is the wrong forum, but has anyone worked as a parttime summer RA while living outside Chicago? If so, do professors expect you to be available during regular 9-5 hours, or is it more flexible?


Typically more flexible. Maybe some are different, but typically your RA work is going to be pretty independent, more like they give you an assignment and you work on it over the course of several days or a week, not like they are constantly barraging you with questions and tasks. (And in any case, what professor works regular 9-5 hours over the summer?)


Thank you!

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Since we're on the topic, and because I noticed White & Case on the Firm-Wise list, I have a quick question (and I am pretty much outing myself by asking this, but I still want to stay anon just in case). I was talking with OCS about them recently, and it seems like something happened between them and UChicago a while back (maybe they no-offered a lot of our students or something?). In a recent email, OCS mentioned the following:
UChicago OCS wrote:White & Case doesn’t even recruit here anymore, save for the DC office. They could never compete with other NYC firms or national firms – no one would accept an offer there.

Is there something about this firm that I should know that I don't?


Not really, but it doesn't really matter for you because it seems almost impossible to get a callback there (I had a contact there a few years back and they talked to recruiting and recommended they bring me in for a callback, and I didn't even get a ding).

They don't seem to be anything special from what I gathered from my contact, and attorneys there seemed willing to say pretty negative things about their experience--so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

There are other firms like Cahill that don't come to OCI that still recruit from our school.


Not sure where this poster is getting their information from. There is one person in 2L class going to W&C NYC, which they got outside of OCI. So it's definitely doable.

They were correct to note that there are many NYC firms with (relatively) big summer classes who do not come to OCI. Cahill is a prime example, along with W&C, Wilkie, Orrick, Chadbourne and Park, Schulte, Kaye Scholer, Bingham, and others. Remember that even a non-NYC headquartered firm might still have 5-15 summers in NYC office, which is more than some of the Chicago firms have in their headquarters (ie, Jenner, one of the biggest Chicago firms, says they're expecting 14 2L's in their Chicago office in 2014 on NALP, while Orrick expects 12 in NYC despite being an SF firm).

These firms don't come to recruit at UChicago because people don't accept their offers. Think about it -- we send about 15-20% of our class to NYC. That's around 30-40 people a year. In the current 2L class, about 17 people are going to V3's: Wachtell (3), Cravath (8), and S&C (6). That leaves only a handful to go to the remaining top NYC firms (4 at STB, 1 at Skadden, 3 at DPW, 1 at Paul Weiss, 1 at Cleary, 3 at Debevoise, 1 at Boies Schiller, 1 at W&C). So that's 31 at V20 firms, and those are only the people I've heard of! There are maybe 5-10 people more going to NYC at non-V20 firms. So it makes sense that those firms don't come to OCI; its not worth their time.


Any NYC experts want to talk about how grade snobby these NYC firms are? Are the V20's mostly looking for 179+?

The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to bid NYC near-exclusively in the fall.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby 20141023 » Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:17 pm

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Last edited by 20141023 on Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:40 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Any NYC experts want to talk about how grade snobby these NYC firms are? Are the V20's mostly looking for 179+?
Also interested.

Also, are the minimum numbers on OCS's OCI CB sheet usually URM CB's? I wish they gave the average instead of just the min/max, because neither of those numbers are particularly useful. :|

Anonymous User wrote:The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to bid NYC near-exclusively in the fall.
+1


Cutoffs are soft. If you have great grades, then at some firms (*cough* S&C *cough*) then you won't need personality/interviewing skills (you'll need some; I'm exaggerating to illustrate the point).

I know MANY sub-178 people that did fairly well (grades didn't seem to hurt them). There are plenty of these people around, but they're usually attractive, confident (both of these relate to ability to put someone in front of a client), have good personalities, knew specifics about the firm, knew practice areas they were interested in, and were just all-around good at interviewing. There are also some who didn't seem to have these characteristics but still got into V5s, but you can't really base anything off of outliers.

Following the bumped advice a few posts ago will help you get better at talking with attorneys and will help you with learning about firms (both of which will help you at OCI).

Here are my thoughts on firms for reference (not gospel, but just to give you an idea)

Wachtell: 179+LR
Cravath: I'd recommend 178+ before you bid this highly (but you can probably snag this off of add/drop or late on your bidlist). Be able to speak intelligently about what's going on in corporate law. I've heard of some with median getting CSM.
S&C: They hire down to median and have a huge summer class to fill. IF you have good grades personality requirements drop, if you have slightly above median grades, it's important that the interviewer likes you.
Skadden: Median or slightly above median is fine.
DPW: I've heard of median grades, but usually 178.5s and 179s get CBs here. They're more picky.
Weil: Grades don't seem to be important, but they don't call many people back.
STB: 177.5+
Cleary: Grades seem more important here than with other peer firms.
Kirkland: Slightly above median is fine for NY.

As for the rest, Gibson/Boies are really the only grade conscious v20s. Generally, the sliding scale of grades+personality will move downward as you move down vault rankings with NYC firms (there are some exceptions).


Others can feel free to disagree, just trying to give my general impression.

FWIW I know someone with 178 grades that bid exclusively NY v20 and had around an 80% cb rate (non-urm, kjd). NY is a MUCH easier market than Chi.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
kappycaft1 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Any NYC experts want to talk about how grade snobby these NYC firms are? Are the V20's mostly looking for 179+?
Also interested.

Also, are the minimum numbers on OCS's OCI CB sheet usually URM CB's? I wish they gave the average instead of just the min/max, because neither of those numbers are particularly useful. :|

Anonymous User wrote:The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to bid NYC near-exclusively in the fall.
+1


Cutoffs are soft. If you have great grades, then at some firms (*cough* S&C *cough*) then you won't need personality/interviewing skills (you'll need some; I'm exaggerating to illustrate the point).

I know MANY sub-178 people that did fairly well (grades didn't seem to hurt them). There are plenty of these people around, but they're usually attractive, confident (both of these relate to ability to put someone in front of a client), have good personalities, knew specifics about the firm, knew practice areas they were interested in, and were just all-around good at interviewing. There are also some who didn't seem to have these characteristics but still got into V5s, but you can't really base anything off of outliers.

Following the bumped advice a few posts ago will help you get better at talking with attorneys and will help you with learning about firms (both of which will help you at OCI).

Here are my thoughts on firms for reference (not gospel, but just to give you an idea)

Wachtell: 179+LR
Cravath: I'd recommend 178+ before you bid this highly (but you can probably snag this off of add/drop or late on your bidlist). Be able to speak intelligently about what's going on in corporate law. I've heard of some with median getting CSM.
S&C: They hire down to median and have a huge summer class to fill. IF you have good grades personality requirements drop, if you have slightly above median grades, it's important that the interviewer likes you.
Skadden: Median or slightly above median is fine.
DPW: I've heard of median grades, but usually 178.5s and 179s get CBs here. They're more picky.
Weil: Grades don't seem to be important, but they don't call many people back.
STB: 177.5+
Cleary: Grades seem more important here than with other peer firms.
Kirkland: Slightly above median is fine for NY.

As for the rest, Gibson/Boies are really the only grade conscious v20s. Generally, the sliding scale of grades+personality will move downward as you move down vault rankings with NYC firms (there are some exceptions).


Others can feel free to agree, just trying to give my general impression.

FWIW I know someone with 178 grades that bid exclusively NY v20 and had around an 80% cb rate (non-urm, kjd). NY is a MUCH easier market than Chi.


Anon from a couple posts ago. TYVM

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Neal Patrick Harris » Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:57 pm

Anyone that wants to talk to me about NY/Chi, grades, or networking, feel free to PM me.

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:As for the rest, Gibson/Boies are really the only grade conscious v20s. Generally, the sliding scale of grades+personality will move downward as you move down vault rankings with NYC firms (there are some exceptions).
Just to clarify, this was extremely helpful, but I was kind of wondering about the specifics of the other V20 firms that weren't discussed here (and since that is actually kind of a pointless place to stop, any decent biglaw firm in NYC in general). When you say that a firm is not "grade conscious," what exactly does that translate to? Median? Below median? Also, how do you all know this information when people generally don't know each other's grades? Are people more relaxed when it comes to talking about that stuff after 2L OCI since it's pretty much moot by that point (because jobs, instead of grades, are the new thing to brag about)?

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Here are my thoughts on firms for reference (not gospel, but just to give you an idea)

Wachtell: 179+LR
Cravath: I'd recommend 178+ before you bid this highly (but you can probably snag this off of add/drop or late on your bidlist). Be able to speak intelligently about what's going on in corporate law. I've heard of some with median getting CSM.
S&C: They hire down to median and have a huge summer class to fill. IF you have good grades personality requirements drop, if you have slightly above median grades, it's important that the interviewer likes you.
Skadden: Median or slightly above median is fine.
DPW: I've heard of median grades, but usually 178.5s and 179s get CBs here. They're more picky.
Weil: Grades don't seem to be important, but they don't call many people back.
STB: 177.5+
Cleary: Grades seem more important here than with other peer firms.
Kirkland: Slightly above median is fine for NY.

As for the rest, Gibson/Boies are really the only grade conscious v20s. Generally, the sliding scale of grades+personality will move downward as you move down vault rankings with NYC firms (there are some exceptions).


This is awesome - thanks a ton. Not an above-quoted anon but the advice is much appreciated in any case. Anyone have insight on the same question re: CA firms?

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Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:As for the rest, Gibson/Boies are really the only grade conscious v20s. Generally, the sliding scale of grades+personality will move downward as you move down vault rankings with NYC firms (there are some exceptions).
Just to clarify, this was extremely helpful, but I was kind of wondering about the specifics of the other V20 firms that weren't discussed here (and since that is actually kind of a pointless place to stop, any decent biglaw firm in NYC in general). When you say that a firm is not "grade conscious," what exactly does that translate to? Median? Below median? Also, how do you all know this information when people generally don't know each other's grades? Are people more relaxed when it comes to talking about that stuff after 2L OCI since it's pretty much moot by that point (because jobs, instead of grades, are the new thing to brag about)?


When OCI comes around, people stop caring about who knows who's grades. Hell, there were a lot of transcripts just lying around in the printer room because people were in a rush. Everyone is focused on getting a job and no one cares anymore because at the end of the day they are just tools to translate into a job. You can get a "decent" biglaw firm in NY with below median grades--if you're above the minimum you have a shot, but obviously chances go down the closer you are to it. Not grade conscious when talking about the top 10 firms generally means they'll go to median/above. As you get lower, anywhere around median is seen as median and the interview is very much about personality/interview skills once you meet the grade cut (unless you're substantially higher than the floor).

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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Here are my thoughts on firms for reference (not gospel, but just to give you an idea)

Wachtell: 179+LR
Cravath: I'd recommend 178+ before you bid this highly (but you can probably snag this off of add/drop or late on your bidlist). Be able to speak intelligently about what's going on in corporate law. I've heard of some with median getting CSM.
S&C: They hire down to median and have a huge summer class to fill. IF you have good grades personality requirements drop, if you have slightly above median grades, it's important that the interviewer likes you.
Skadden: Median or slightly above median is fine.
DPW: I've heard of median grades, but usually 178.5s and 179s get CBs here. They're more picky.
Weil: Grades don't seem to be important, but they don't call many people back.
STB: 177.5+
Cleary: Grades seem more important here than with other peer firms.
Kirkland: Slightly above median is fine for NY.

As for the rest, Gibson/Boies are really the only grade conscious v20s. Generally, the sliding scale of grades+personality will move downward as you move down vault rankings with NYC firms (there are some exceptions).


This is awesome - thanks a ton. Not an above-quoted anon but the advice is much appreciated in any case. Anyone have insight on the same question re: CA firms?


I bid exclusively CA, so I can be of help here. It's is much more nuanced - most importantly, what part of CA? LA, SF, and SV are all different beasts. Think of them as three completely different markets

(and anyone bidding CA can certainly PM me - I'm happy to be open with my bid list, grades, etc. I will say, however, that 1L's should NOT be worrying about this stuff now. Focus on spring finals).

edit: realized this is anon - this is WhenInLaw

Anonymous User
Posts: 273380
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: UChicago OCI Alums Answering Questions About the Job Hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Here are my thoughts on firms for reference (not gospel, but just to give you an idea)

Wachtell: 179+LR
Cravath: I'd recommend 178+ before you bid this highly (but you can probably snag this off of add/drop or late on your bidlist). Be able to speak intelligently about what's going on in corporate law. I've heard of some with median getting CSM.
S&C: They hire down to median and have a huge summer class to fill. IF you have good grades personality requirements drop, if you have slightly above median grades, it's important that the interviewer likes you.
Skadden: Median or slightly above median is fine.
DPW: I've heard of median grades, but usually 178.5s and 179s get CBs here. They're more picky.
Weil: Grades don't seem to be important, but they don't call many people back.
STB: 177.5+
Cleary: Grades seem more important here than with other peer firms.
Kirkland: Slightly above median is fine for NY.

As for the rest, Gibson/Boies are really the only grade conscious v20s. Generally, the sliding scale of grades+personality will move downward as you move down vault rankings with NYC firms (there are some exceptions).


This is awesome - thanks a ton. Not an above-quoted anon but the advice is much appreciated in any case. Anyone have insight on the same question re: CA firms?


I bid exclusively CA, so I can be of help here. It's is much more nuanced - most importantly, what part of CA? LA, SF, and SV are all different beasts. Think of them as three completely different markets

(and anyone bidding CA can certainly PM me - I'm happy to be open with my bid list, grades, etc. I will say, however, that 1L's should NOT be worrying about this stuff now. Focus on spring finals).

edit: realized this is anon - this is WhenInLaw


Since we're on the topic, what do you guys recommend as far as the timeline for preparing for spring finals?

Last quarter I put off studying for finals until the memo was done. I'm guessing most people did the same thing. I don't have my grades yet so I might regret it but at least in terms of stress/workload it worked out well. Can I do the same thing for spring finals or should we be preparing earlier?




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