3L grades to lose offer

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Anonymous User
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3L grades to lose offer

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:47 pm

3L here, and I am expecting a lower grade in one of my classes this semester.

How low can your 3L grades go before the offer is revoked? Obviously you can't fail your classes.
Does anyone know any stories of grades-based offer revocations? Do you lose your offer for C's?

mr.hands
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Re: 3L grades to lose offer

Postby mr.hands » Fri Nov 29, 2013 3:09 pm

Where are you working, where do you go to school, what are your grades now, and what's the median? It is impossible to answer this question without this info.

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Re: 3L grades to lose offer

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:19 pm

While we're at it, can we answer this for 2L's as well?

Let's say you had decent grades and got an offer from a v5, then get straight B's 2L and 3L. Does this affect your offer? I understand there might be issues around ability to lateral, clerkships, blah blah blah.

Assume CCN, and straight B's would put you in the bottom third of the class. Obviously would finish without latin honors, etc.

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thesealocust
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Re: 3L grades to lose offer

Postby thesealocust » Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:32 pm

If your grades do not improve each year, your offer will be revoked. This is why most major law firms have offer rates that are consistently and materially below 100%.

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brotherdarkness
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Re: 3L grades to lose offer

Postby brotherdarkness » Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:37 pm

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Last edited by brotherdarkness on Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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thesealocust
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Re: 3L grades to lose offer

Postby thesealocust » Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:51 pm

IMO that advice is still garbage.

Look up firm offer rates, imagine what percentage of law students might get into trouble or present less than their ideal selves at any point over the summer, and finally imagine how many people's grades must change for the worse after 1L year.

It's simply mathematically impossible that the overwhelming majority of law firms give two shits about 2L/3L grades given (i) the certainty of reversion to the mean, (ii) law students' total systematic lack of social skills or self awareness and (iii) materially high (often at or very near) 100% full time, non-subsequently-revoked, full time offer rates at big firms.

Do your own due diligence - make sure you know what your firm is up to - but your 2L and 3L grades are almost certainly not a factor at all if you're headed to a name-brand biglaw firm.

To be more particular, if the quoted text above were true, then you would still need to score like -1,123 points or worse to get no-offered given the available data on offer rates.
Last edited by thesealocust on Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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brotherdarkness
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Re: 3L grades to lose offer

Postby brotherdarkness » Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:53 pm

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Last edited by brotherdarkness on Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

westphillybandr
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Re: 3L grades to lose offer

Postby westphillybandr » Fri Nov 29, 2013 8:40 pm

thesealocust wrote:IMO that advice is still garbage.

Look up firm offer rates, imagine what percentage of law students might get into trouble or present less than their ideal selves at any point over the summer, and finally imagine how many people's grades must change for the worse after 1L year.

It's simply mathematically impossible that the overwhelming majority of law firms give two shits about 2L/3L grades given (i) the certainty of reversion to the mean, (ii) law students' total systematic lack of social skills or self awareness and (iii) materially high (often at or very near) 100% full time, non-subsequently-revoked, full time offer rates at big firms.

Do your own due diligence - make sure you know what your firm is up to - but your 2L and 3L grades are almost certainly not a factor at all if you're headed to a name-brand biglaw firm.

To be more particular, if the quoted text above were true, then you would still need to score like -1,123 points or worse to get no-offered given the available data on offer rates.


Cold Offers.

user outed for anon abuse

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brotherdarkness
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Re: 3L grades to lose offer

Postby brotherdarkness » Sat Nov 30, 2013 12:38 am

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Last edited by brotherdarkness on Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 3L grades to lose offer

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:25 am

mr.hands wrote:Where are you working, where do you go to school, what are your grades now, and what's the median? It is impossible to answer this question without this info.

OP:
3L, T20, at median or slightly above. I accepted the offer earlier this semester from a biglaw boutique.

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Re: 3L grades to lose offer

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:52 am

After 1L, had top 1/4 grades at T10; accepted an offer from V10 firm. 2L year goes really bad; had 0-5% motivation. I told myself to not check the grades but I did one drunken night during my Summer Associate summer. I had gone down to median cumulative (which meant a good amount of below median grades).

got an offer to return after graduation. no mention of grades in exit interview/offer.

3L hits; put forth probably 0-3% effort. Started at firm a few months ago. I haven't checked grades, but I did get my diploma. So yeah, take what you want from that.

Only negative is that I basically need to make sure I stay at the firm for a few years to pass so that I have enough experience to say my grades truly don't matter. But 2Lol and 3Lol were so much fun that I'm 99% sure I'd do it all the same again if given the chance.

UnderrateOverachieve
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Re: 3L grades to lose offer

Postby UnderrateOverachieve » Sun Dec 01, 2013 6:31 am

Check the language of your offer. My friend's makes NO reference about grades. The only condition regarding performance was regarding bar passage. Now their may be some implied terms regarding your accolades. But all of this should not be left to speculation. Just contact someone you trust at the firm and ask.

If you were at median then there probably is no implied expectation you would be maintaining, say, latin honors standing.

rwilson15
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Re: 3L grades to lose offer

Postby rwilson15 » Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:48 am

Itt: Latin honors of bust

User outed for anon. abuse

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: 3L grades to lose offer

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:06 pm

brotherdarkness wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
thesealocust wrote:IMO that advice is still garbage.

Look up firm offer rates, imagine what percentage of law students might get into trouble or present less than their ideal selves at any point over the summer, and finally imagine how many people's grades must change for the worse after 1L year.

It's simply mathematically impossible that the overwhelming majority of law firms give two shits about 2L/3L grades given (i) the certainty of reversion to the mean, (ii) law students' total systematic lack of social skills or self awareness and (iii) materially high (often at or very near) 100% full time, non-subsequently-revoked, full time offer rates at big firms.

Do your own due diligence - make sure you know what your firm is up to - but your 2L and 3L grades are almost certainly not a factor at all if you're headed to a name-brand biglaw firm.

To be more particular, if the quoted text above were true, then you would still need to score like -1,123 points or worse to get no-offered given the available data on offer rates.


Cold Offers.


Is there any way to find out the approximate number of cold offers a firm gives (or which firms are known for being prone to cold offer)?

This forum, basically.

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Re: 3L grades to lose offer

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:56 pm

UnderrateOverachieve wrote:Check the language of your offer. My friend's makes NO reference about grades. The only condition regarding performance was regarding bar passage. Now their may be some implied terms regarding your accolades. But all of this should not be left to speculation. Just contact someone you trust at the firm and ask.

If you were at median then there probably is no implied expectation you would be maintaining, say, latin honors standing.


OP:
Thanks. My offer letter is only conditioned on bar passage.

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ph14
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Re: 3L grades to lose offer

Postby ph14 » Sun Dec 01, 2013 2:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
UnderrateOverachieve wrote:Check the language of your offer. My friend's makes NO reference about grades. The only condition regarding performance was regarding bar passage. Now their may be some implied terms regarding your accolades. But all of this should not be left to speculation. Just contact someone you trust at the firm and ask.

If you were at median then there probably is no implied expectation you would be maintaining, say, latin honors standing.


OP:
Thanks. My offer letter is only conditioned on bar passage.


The firm can still withdraw your offer or lay you off for other reasons besides bar passage. Not that will happen or anything, but just something to be aware of.

Anonymous User
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Re: 3L grades to lose offer

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:34 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
brotherdarkness wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
thesealocust wrote:IMO that advice is still garbage.

Look up firm offer rates, imagine what percentage of law students might get into trouble or present less than their ideal selves at any point over the summer, and finally imagine how many people's grades must change for the worse after 1L year.

It's simply mathematically impossible that the overwhelming majority of law firms give two shits about 2L/3L grades given (i) the certainty of reversion to the mean, (ii) law students' total systematic lack of social skills or self awareness and (iii) materially high (often at or very near) 100% full time, non-subsequently-revoked, full time offer rates at big firms.

Do your own due diligence - make sure you know what your firm is up to - but your 2L and 3L grades are almost certainly not a factor at all if you're headed to a name-brand biglaw firm.

To be more particular, if the quoted text above were true, then you would still need to score like -1,123 points or worse to get no-offered given the available data on offer rates.


Cold Offers.


Is there any way to find out the approximate number of cold offers a firm gives (or which firms are known for being prone to cold offer)?

This forum, basically.


ask for a list of the firms old summers to contact, cross refernce that list over the number of offers they reported to NALP, anyone not on the list was probably cold offered

09042014
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Re: 3L grades to lose offer

Postby 09042014 » Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:45 pm

I'm sure cold offers happen, but it's not significant.

Anonymous User
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Re: 3L grades to lose offer

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:55 pm

For example, I know my firm has cold offered people who were accused of sexual harassment (more than once) over the course of their summer associateship.

In other words, don't assume cold offers = way to appropriately punish EGREGIOUS 2L SLACKING.

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Re: 3L grades to lose offer

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:29 pm

I'm at a V50, went to a T10 and was at or slightly below median the entire time. I ended up doing pretty badly during 2L fall semester, but made it up in spring. I agonized over whether the firm would realize I was a fraud and cold offer me. It didn't happen. Same process and agony in 3L, but they never even commented on it.

I don't think grade slippage is generally an issue at most firms, but I have heard stories of people getting "warnings" from a select few firms re: grades. But still, none of those people had their offers rescinded. My advice? Just do your best, and consider no news to be good news. And don't forget to enjoy your last year of freedom!

Anonymous User
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Re: 3L grades to lose offer

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:04 pm

Would you kindly mention the firms guy?

Anonymous User
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Re: 3L grades to lose offer

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:32 am

Anonymous User wrote:Would you kindly mention the firms guy?

Name your firm first.

ipguy
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Re: 3L grades to lose offer

Postby ipguy » Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:22 pm

thesealocust wrote:IMO that advice is still garbage.

Look up firm offer rates, imagine what percentage of law students might get into trouble or present less than their ideal selves at any point over the summer, and finally imagine how many people's grades must change for the worse after 1L year.

It's simply mathematically impossible that the overwhelming majority of law firms give two shits about 2L/3L grades given (i) the certainty of reversion to the mean, (ii) law students' total systematic lack of social skills or self awareness and (iii) materially high (often at or very near) 100% full time, non-subsequently-revoked, full time offer rates at big firms.

Do your own due diligence - make sure you know what your firm is up to - but your 2L and 3L grades are almost certainly not a factor at all if you're headed to a name-brand biglaw firm.

To be more particular, if the quoted text above were true, then you would still need to score like -1,123 points or worse to get no-offered given the available data on offer rates.


The analysis is garbage.

Many firms (for whatever reason) hire more summers than they have full time positions for with the intention of picking the best of the crop to make offers for. Firms may have other changes that impact their hiring, things like bringing in lateral partners that come with associates in addition to their book.

To try and say that anything less than a 100% offer rate indicates that slumping grades are to be blamed is ridiculous.

If anything it is far more believable that a firm with an offer rate consistently below 100% is over hiring the summer class.

There is a lot more to someone being successful long term in a firm than two semesters of grades, a 15 minute screener, and a series of 30 minute chats in the office. There are plenty of legitimate reasons for people to end up with a no-offer from a firm that don't involve losing your pants at a social event.

If your grades indicate that you put school on cruise control, no longer caring about your performance after getting an offer, then firms are going to look at that as an indication you may do the same once you show up. If your grades drop a bit because you have a tougher load, other students are working harder to get up from the bottom of the pack, etc, etc - no one is going to hold it against you.

There is no magic number, but if you're still putting in effort, you shouldn't worry about your grades dipping (so long as they don't fall off a cliff)

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SemperLegal
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Re: 3L grades to lose offer

Postby SemperLegal » Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:37 pm

ipguy wrote:
The analysis is garbage.

Many firms (for whatever reason) hire more summers than they have full time positions for with the intention of picking the best of the crop to make offers for. Firms may have other changes that impact their hiring, things like bringing in lateral partners that come with associates in addition to their book.

To try and say that anything less than a 100% offer rate indicates that slumping grades are to be blamed is ridiculous.

If anything it is far more believable that a firm with an offer rate consistently below 100% is over hiring the summer class.

)


I'm guessing you are more into Soft IP.

He is saying that if grades matter there would be more no offers, because a significant number of law students have lower grades second year, but the majority are offered. Therefore, there must be something else that pushes them over the edge.

ipguy
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Re: 3L grades to lose offer

Postby ipguy » Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:48 pm

SemperLegal wrote:
ipguy wrote:
The analysis is garbage.

Many firms (for whatever reason) hire more summers than they have full time positions for with the intention of picking the best of the crop to make offers for. Firms may have other changes that impact their hiring, things like bringing in lateral partners that come with associates in addition to their book.

To try and say that anything less than a 100% offer rate indicates that slumping grades are to be blamed is ridiculous.

If anything it is far more believable that a firm with an offer rate consistently below 100% is over hiring the summer class.

)


I'm guessing you are more into Soft IP.

He is saying that if grades matter there would be more no offers, because a significant number of law students have lower grades second year, but the majority are offered. Therefore, there must be something else that pushes them over the edge.


Apparently my sarcasm meter was turned off




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