Grade Drops

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Anonymous User
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Grade Drops

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:10 pm

Which NY Firms care? As an aside, among those which don't - what's too big of a drop? Is 3.9 to 3.3 treated like 3.3 to 2.7? It's not an issue of comfort and complacency. It's an issue of only caring if they care. If grades are just for humble-bragging, and latin self-righteousness on a degree, I cease to care.

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thesealocust
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Re: Grade Drops

Postby thesealocust » Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:35 pm

All of them. They picked you because they belive on you, and if your grades don't INCREASE at some firms (notably Gibson Dunn, which requires an increase both 2L and 3L year) you will be classified as unfit for duty and dishonorably discharged.

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Re: Grade Drops

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:59 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong but some firms do not even request 2L grades. I think the more important concern is how your grades will affect you further down the road rather than how they will impact your chances of getting an offer.

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thesealocust
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Re: Grade Drops

Postby thesealocust » Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:03 pm

Nothing matters but grades. They don't care how you fit in as a 2L, the potential you show as a lawyer, the experience you gain on the job, or any of that crap. All they care about is how you fared on issue spotting exams 2nd and 3rd year of law school.

Look up confirmation hearings for lawyers on the federal level, hiring rubrics for government jobs, hell even some states have minimum GPA requirements to get admitted to the bar or to represent a client without supervision from an attorney with grades reflecting a minimum level of legal competence in that jurisdiction.

I know one guy whose grades dropped 2L and 3L year and so he's prohibited from representing clients alone in 12 states.

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ph14
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Re: Grade Drops

Postby ph14 » Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:06 pm

thesealocust wrote:All of them. They picked you because they belive on you, and if your grades don't INCREASE at some firms (notably Gibson Dunn, which requires an increase both 2L and 3L year) you will be classified as unfit for duty and dishonorably discharged.


That's why smart law students do mediocre their 1L year, so they have plenty of room to improve 2L and 3L year. If you start too high as a 1L you don't give yourself any room to show improvement.










But in all seriousness, OP, it seems that the consensus is that, for the most part, it isn't a huge deal as long as you don't have any catastrophic drops. And even then, not all firms check. But this is a firm specific question. Firms with 100% offers? Maybe not as much to work about as firms with lower offer rates.

paulinaporizkova
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Re: Grade Drops

Postby paulinaporizkova » Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:10 pm

thesealocust wrote:Nothing matters but grades. They don't care how you fit in as a 2L, the potential you show as a lawyer, the experience you gain on the job, or any of that crap. All they care about is how you fared on issue spotting exams 2nd and 3rd year of law school.

Look up confirmation hearings for lawyers on the federal level, hiring rubrics for government jobs, hell even some states have minimum GPA requirements to get admitted to the bar or to represent a client without supervision from an attorney with grades reflecting a minimum level of legal competence in that jurisdiction.

I know one guy whose grades dropped 2L and 3L year and so he's prohibited from representing clients alone in 12 states.


damn, the troll is strong in you today

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Re: Grade Drops

Postby paulinaporizkova » Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Which NY Firms care? As an aside, among those which don't - what's too big of a drop? Is 3.9 to 3.3 treated like 3.3 to 2.7? It's not an issue of comfort and complacency. It's an issue of only caring if they care. If grades are just for humble-bragging, and latin self-righteousness on a degree, I cease to care.


firms don't care but remember this: you might dislike your job this summer and want to try something else. if you destroy your GPA and really hate your gig next summer you might feel a bit trapped. chances are that won't happen, but come on, you're there to learn things so you might as well learn them and not completely write shit off. plus you're paying a shitload of money to be there.

also if manage to drop .6 in one year i'd say you;re literally retarded.

actually re-reading your post i'm sure my advice doesn't apply to you so, tank on my friend.
Last edited by paulinaporizkova on Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

09042014
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Re: Grade Drops

Postby 09042014 » Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:20 pm

paulinaporizkova wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Which NY Firms care? As an aside, among those which don't - what's too big of a drop? Is 3.9 to 3.3 treated like 3.3 to 2.7? It's not an issue of comfort and complacency. It's an issue of only caring if they care. If grades are just for humble-bragging, and latin self-righteousness on a degree, I cease to care.


firms don't care but remember this: you might dislike your job this summer and want to try something else. if you destroy your GPA and really hate your gig next summer you might feel a bit trapped. chances are that won't happen, but come on, you're there to learn things so you might as well learn them and not completely write shit off. plus you're paying a shitload of money to be there.

also if manage to drop .6 in one year i'd say you;re literally retarded.


The number of TLSers who get no offered is amazingly high. Just being a TLSer is like 2 strikes for getting an offer. Be afraid, not that your grades will sink you, but that you'll sink yourself and you'll need to get another job.

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Re: Grade Drops

Postby paulinaporizkova » Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:23 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
paulinaporizkova wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Which NY Firms care? As an aside, among those which don't - what's too big of a drop? Is 3.9 to 3.3 treated like 3.3 to 2.7? It's not an issue of comfort and complacency. It's an issue of only caring if they care. If grades are just for humble-bragging, and latin self-righteousness on a degree, I cease to care.


firms don't care but remember this: you might dislike your job this summer and want to try something else. if you destroy your GPA and really hate your gig next summer you might feel a bit trapped. chances are that won't happen, but come on, you're there to learn things so you might as well learn them and not completely write shit off. plus you're paying a shitload of money to be there.

also if manage to drop .6 in one year i'd say you;re literally retarded.


The number of TLSers who get no offered is amazingly high. Just being a TLSer is like 2 strikes for getting an offer. Be afraid, not that your grades will sink you, but that you'll sink yourself and you'll need to get another job.


this is kind of true. i suppose it would be relevant to ask how many poasts OP has on this site.

09042014
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Re: Grade Drops

Postby 09042014 » Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:25 pm

More than 5 ----> pepper thy angus

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thesealocust
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Re: Grade Drops

Postby thesealocust » Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:45 pm

As a megapoaster who got no-offered and is still looking for legal work, I can confirm.

paulinaporizkova
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Re: Grade Drops

Postby paulinaporizkova » Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:46 pm

thesealocust wrote:As a megapoaster who got no-offered and is still looking for legal work, I can confirm.


I can confirm at least a couple, and their grades were all very solid at great schools.

(also, .............)

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Re: Grade Drops

Postby clone22 » Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:53 pm

an honest reply: you'll be fine. 3.9 to 3.3 is perfectly fine. My gpa dropped .5 between 1L and 1st semester 2L (which was the only grade my firm saw in the summer). Nobody said a word to me. I've heard of a summer at the firm going from straight a's to straight C's because of serious family issues. The firm asked him about the grade drop, he told them about the family issues, and the firm said "ok, carry on then" and that was the last of that. Basically if you go from straight A's to B+'s, you'll be fine. If you start getting C's and D's or start failing classes, that may raise some eyebrows. Although again, don't panic too much, there's always a spring semester and most people can come up with a good reason why grades dropped (focused almost exclusively for a client for a clinic, taking on heavy non-LS course load, events in the family, etc). Basically at this stage the firms have seen that where it matters (1L), you can apply yourself and gun like no other. They expect you to do so continuously once you start working for them. As long as the firm doesn't think you started doing nothing but hookers and blow your 2L year, you're fine. And 3L grades? lol. As long as you graduate, and your first firm will not even see them.

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Re: Grade Drops

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:48 pm

Grade drop from oci 3.6 to anticipated below median ~3.2 this semester (thanks fed courts, sec trans, Obama). Big deal for dpw/csm/s&c?

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Re: Grade Drops

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:31 pm

Had a pretty bad grade drop second semester of 2L (some Cs, but no Fs). Stressed all summer whether to bring it up with my SA firm, decided not to, turned in my transcript, and never heard anything about it. But my impression is that if they didn't like you for some reason (work product, personality, whatever) that would have been an easy out for them to no-offer you.

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Re: Grade Drops

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:03 pm

If this is the logic then they'd no offer you regardless, and the grade drop just makes it less awkward.

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Re: Grade Drops

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:14 pm

I can confirm that at my firm (which is one of those three), it would be noted and could affect the quality of assignments you receive over the summer, but would have no impact upon the likelihood of you getting a offer.

Anonymous User wrote:Grade drop from oci 3.6 to anticipated below median ~3.2 this semester (thanks fed courts, sec trans, Obama). Big deal for dpw/csm/s&c?

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Re: Grade Drops

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:23 pm

[quote="Anonymous User"]I can confirm that at my firm (which is one of those three), it would be noted and could affect the quality of assignments you receive over the summer, but would have no impact upon the likelihood of you getting a offer.

Serious?

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ph14
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Re: Grade Drops

Postby ph14 » Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I can confirm that at my firm (which is one of those three), it would be noted and could affect the quality of assignments you receive over the summer, but would have no impact upon the likelihood of you getting a offer.

Serious?


I doubt this is a common thing. From my experience, albeit as a summer associate and not on the other side, your 2L grades are not going to affect the quality of assignments. I mean, odds are the partner won't even know what school you are from, let alone your grades. And, depending on the firm, it's not like you're just going to get given an assignment. Often times you have choices in what assignments you want to work on, interest area, etc.

aces
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Re: Grade Drops

Postby aces » Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:20 am

What that anon probably means is that the assigning partner/associate will get to see your resume and transcript and so may, in part, make work assignment decisions based on 2L grades. Which, I suppose, a particular dickish assigning partner/associate may do, but wouldn't be much to worry about.

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Re: Grade Drops

Postby itbdvorm » Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:14 pm

the (actual) advice in this thread is pretty good. a couple of points:

1) the relaxed attitude should not apply to transfers, especially from non-t20 schools to t20 schools (not as much to worry about from Georgetown to NYU, but should be somewhat worried about East Nowhere to UVA). If it's not a school we normally hire from (so we don't have much experience with the grades we have) and the grades we do have by comparison are way below our norms (especially because 2L/3L curves are generally easier), that's a red flag

2) rarely are grades alone in a vacuum enough. this is not actually how we do things (there's no mathematical model), but think of it as a scale with multiple points - social, work quality, grades. Assume you can get points on each ranging from +2 to -2 (but socially max upwards is +1). If you are normal/quality socially, normal/quality work product, and your grades drop a little bit, probably fine (total score of +1 to -1). If you're nothing special socially or work-wise and your grades tank, possibly something to worry about (total score of -2 to -4). If you're nothing special socially and your work is enh and your grades are enh, possibly something to worry about (total score of -2). If everyone loves you but your work is enh and your grades are enh, maybe you're OK (total score of -1) but this probably won't be enough if your work is horrible.

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Re: Grade Drops

Postby brotherdarkness » Thu Nov 28, 2013 6:01 pm

.
Last edited by brotherdarkness on Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Grade Drops

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 28, 2013 6:06 pm

itbdvorm wrote:the (actual) advice in this thread is pretty good. a couple of points:

1) the relaxed attitude should not apply to transfers, especially from non-t20 schools to t20 schools (not as much to worry about from Georgetown to NYU, but should be somewhat worried about East Nowhere to UVA). If it's not a school we normally hire from (so we don't have much experience with the grades we have) and the grades we do have by comparison are way below our norms (especially because 2L/3L curves are generally easier), that's a red flag

2) rarely are grades alone in a vacuum enough. this is not actually how we do things (there's no mathematical model), but think of it as a scale with multiple points - social, work quality, grades. Assume you can get points on each ranging from +2 to -2 (but socially max upwards is +1). If you are normal/quality socially, normal/quality work product, and your grades drop a little bit, probably fine (total score of +1 to -1). If you're nothing special socially or work-wise and your grades tank, possibly something to worry about (total score of -2 to -4). If you're nothing special socially and your work is enh and your grades are enh, possibly something to worry about (total score of -2). If everyone loves you but your work is enh and your grades are enh, maybe you're OK (total score of -1) but this probably won't be enough if your work is horrible.


I'm assuming you mean enough to land a no offer? Or are you including cold offers?

Which market are you referring to?

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Re: Grade Drops

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:28 am

gotta be nyc

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Re: Grade Drops

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:53 pm

Any anecdotal evidence as to tolerable grade drops for 2L at T20 would be appreciated. I'm SAing next summer with a V50 in a secondary market. I was at median (~3.3X). If I keep 2L grades above 3.0, I should be okay, right?




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