Student loan payments: Actual numbers

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lacrossebrother
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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby lacrossebrother » Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:30 pm

Please describe the housing situation of a "welfare mom" in MFH

whysoseriousbiglaw
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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby whysoseriousbiglaw » Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:46 pm

lacrossebrother wrote:Please describe the housing situation of a "welfare mom" in MFH


Welfare moms in MFH likely live in rent stabilized apartments or public housing. In public housing, residents are expected to pay 30% of their income as rent. They are probably on food stamps ( $100 to $700 a month) depending on housing size and income.

I've actually temporarily stayed in public housing before in MFH - the units are larger than the average MFH apartment from what I've seen, but they are more run down on average. A lot of them have fantastic views though, and tbf, I never felt like my life was in danger, albeit I stayed in one of the better public housing projects.

I will say that most welfare moms probably don't live in MFH, but probably in Bronx. They live in a one bedroom, rent is probably around between $800 to $1600, but not that many on the low end. Usually a portion is covered by welfare programs and the luckier ones will have LYNC, CITYFEPS or FEPS. Regular FEPS has low rent limit so it's hard for people to use it. CITYFEPS has a higher rent cap. Assuming that they are not working, and they have LYNC, LYNC will pay the vast,vast majority of the rent. They may only have to pay a couple hundred out of pocket, which they can get out of cash assistance (aka welfare).

Cash assistance depends on their income and household size and it could be a few hundred per month.

They are probably also on food stamps, which again depends on household size (between $100 to $700 per month).

anonnymouse
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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby anonnymouse » Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:02 pm

Just stop.

I've tracked every single dollar I've spent since April (every. single. dollar.). Here is how it's possible to save in a high COL. My average monthly spend on COL is $2474.53. That includes:

    Regular Expenses
  • Rent @ $1052.85 (split a Flex 2 in UES/Yorkville)
  • Mobile @ $32.66 (prepaid and could be lower/nil if I used firm's reimbursement but too lazy to fill out the reimbursement)
  • MTA @ $116.50 (pre-tax so real cost is lower)
  • Haircut @ $25 (barber near my apt, includes tip)
  • Gas/Electric @ $72 (split bill w/gf, high bill of $121 in July, low bill of $47 in December -- amounts are my half)
  • Internet @ $35 (split bill w/gf, TWC 200Mbps)

    General Expenses
  • Groceries @ $156.60 (split w/gf, we cook dinner once or twice midweek, most weekends)
  • General Travel @ $91.62 (trains to visit friends family in NJ, LI, Westchester, day trips in rental car, the occasional cab -- on cabs: I've paid for 5 since April)
  • Clothing @ $93.92 (usually one new item/month)
  • Pharmacy @ $11.43 (advils, cough drops, Rx copays, etc)
  • Laundry @ $17.10 (I do my own on the weekends at the laundromat; also includes occasional dry-cleaning for slacks)
  • Gifts @ $52.80 (bday presents, flowers for gf, etc)

    Discretionary Expenses
  • Breakfasts @ $46.92 (coffee cart 1-2x/wk, cafe on the weekend 1x-2x/month)
  • Lunches @ $141.64 (usually try to target $10 lunches and almost always get 1x free lunch from firm/wk, occasionally eat Seamless leftovers)
  • Restaurants/Seamless at Home @ $276.46 (decent restaurants 1x-2x/month, plus Seamless at home when I'm lazy or local pizza slice/Chipotle)
  • Snacks @ $52.29 (random snacks at home and in the office . . . I don't eat healthy)
  • Entertainment @ $58.93 (the odd movie, video game, books, records, college bball game, UFC PPV)
  • Alcohol @ $39.94 (I rarely go out to drink, mostly beer/wine at home; admittedly this is probably VERY low for typical NYC biglaw associate)
  • Hobbies @ $105.73 (couple Zog leagues, electronics, other athletic shit)
  • Non-Reimbursable Office @ $9.68 (random shit in my office that firm doesn't pay for like plants, photos, etc)
  • Electronics @ $69.98 (got a new phone off-contract which firm paid about half of and bought a tablet on Black Friday discount)
  • Household Items @ $6.56 (random household/decorating shit like small plants, drano when the sink was slow to drain, etc)]

In addition to the above, I had the following monthly expenses:

  • Dog @ $205.01 (mostly due to emergency vet visit, normal monthly expenses are around $55-$75
  • Car @ $208.62 (insurance, registration, some repairs -- I store at a family member's house in NJ; some of the "General Travel" above include train to/from picking car up/dropping car off)
  • Christmas Gifts @ $830.32 (Nov/Dec grand total, not per-month)

Worst case scenario for a new biglaw associate:

  • Monthly income @ $6500 (deductions for 401k, health)
  • COL expenses @ $2500 (shown above)
  • Loan payments @ $3000 ($250k/7.5%/10yr, like I said worst case)
    Still leaves: $1k/mo for saving (on top of the $1.5k/mo of 401k)

Bottom line: if you want to save, you have to prioritize saving. It doesn't even require ramen & lentils or rice & beans 24/7. I live pretty cheap and still get to enjoy nice shit (go to museums/events/music, the occasional nice restaurant, hang out with Zog team friends, play rec sports, did not include vacation expenses in the above budget but obviously there's room for saving $2.5k/yr for a nice vacation).

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lacrossebrother
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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby lacrossebrother » Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:03 pm

awesome. so how does one start this journey to an excellent life of living on food stamps in the Bronx? go get a part-time job at mcdonalds?

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runinthefront
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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby runinthefront » Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:04 pm

lacrossebrother wrote:awesome. so how does one start this journey to an excellent life of living on food stamps in the Bronx? go get a part-time job at mcdonalds?


I am also interested in this

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lacrossebrother
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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby lacrossebrother » Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:06 pm

anonnymouse wrote:I've tracked every single dollar I've spent since April (every. single. dollar.). Here is how it's possible to save in a high COL. My average monthly spend on COL is $2474.53. That includes:

spend $1000 bucks on rent and $50 on booze :lol: :lol: :lol:

anonnymouse
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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby anonnymouse » Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:13 pm

To add for the $200k 2-person family:

Assuming MFJ, take-home is $9665/mo for Jan-Jul, then about $10,700/mo for Aug-Dec. Double the COL to $5k, loans at $3k, and you can still save $2k. Add in a kid, bump the take-home up a bit, use more pre-tax accounts (childcare, health FSA/HSA) and you can STILL probably save $500/mo AFTER 401k contributions of $1.5k/mo.

Or prioritize spending. That's fine and normal human behavior. Just don't bitch that you can't save because it's objectively false.

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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby anonnymouse » Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:23 pm

lacrossebrother wrote:
anonnymouse wrote:I've tracked every single dollar I've spent since April (every. single. dollar.). Here is how it's possible to save in a high COL. My average monthly spend on COL is $2474.53. That includes:

spend $1000 bucks on rent and $50 on booze :lol: :lol: :lol:

1. Roommate
2. Don't be an alcoholic

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JenDarby
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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby JenDarby » Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:25 pm

anonnymouse wrote:
lacrossebrother wrote:
anonnymouse wrote:I've tracked every single dollar I've spent since April (every. single. dollar.). Here is how it's possible to save in a high COL. My average monthly spend on COL is $2474.53. That includes:

spend $1000 bucks on rent and $50 on booze :lol: :lol: :lol:

1. Roommate
2. Don't be an alcoholic

over $50 a month definitely does not make you an alcoholic, esp in MFH where going out twice and getting two drinks each time can easily put you over

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JohannDeMann
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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby JohannDeMann » Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:26 pm

anonnymouse wrote:Just stop.

I've tracked every single dollar I've spent since April (every. single. dollar.). Here is how it's possible to save in a high COL. My average monthly spend on COL is $2474.53. That includes:

    Regular Expenses
  • Rent @ $1052.85 (split a Flex 2 in UES/Yorkville)
  • Mobile @ $32.66 (prepaid and could be lower/nil if I used firm's reimbursement but too lazy to fill out the reimbursement)
  • MTA @ $116.50 (pre-tax so real cost is lower)
  • Haircut @ $25 (barber near my apt, includes tip)
  • Gas/Electric @ $72 (split bill w/gf, high bill of $121 in July, low bill of $47 in December -- amounts are my half)
  • Internet @ $35 (split bill w/gf, TWC 200Mbps)

    General Expenses
  • Groceries @ $156.60 (split w/gf, we cook dinner once or twice midweek, most weekends)
  • General Travel @ $91.62 (trains to visit friends family in NJ, LI, Westchester, day trips in rental car, the occasional cab -- on cabs: I've paid for 5 since April)
  • Clothing @ $93.92 (usually one new item/month)
  • Pharmacy @ $11.43 (advils, cough drops, Rx copays, etc)
  • Laundry @ $17.10 (I do my own on the weekends at the laundromat; also includes occasional dry-cleaning for slacks)
  • Gifts @ $52.80 (bday presents, flowers for gf, etc)

    Discretionary Expenses
  • Breakfasts @ $46.92 (coffee cart 1-2x/wk, cafe on the weekend 1x-2x/month)
  • Lunches @ $141.64 (usually try to target $10 lunches and almost always get 1x free lunch from firm/wk, occasionally eat Seamless leftovers)
  • Restaurants/Seamless at Home @ $276.46 (decent restaurants 1x-2x/month, plus Seamless at home when I'm lazy or local pizza slice/Chipotle)
  • Snacks @ $52.29 (random snacks at home and in the office . . . I don't eat healthy)
  • Entertainment @ $58.93 (the odd movie, video game, books, records, college bball game, UFC PPV)
  • Alcohol @ $39.94 (I rarely go out to drink, mostly beer/wine at home; admittedly this is probably VERY low for typical NYC biglaw associate)
  • Hobbies @ $105.73 (couple Zog leagues, electronics, other athletic shit)
  • Non-Reimbursable Office @ $9.68 (random shit in my office that firm doesn't pay for like plants, photos, etc)
  • Electronics @ $69.98 (got a new phone off-contract which firm paid about half of and bought a tablet on Black Friday discount)
  • Household Items @ $6.56 (random household/decorating shit like small plants, drano when the sink was slow to drain, etc)]

In addition to the above, I had the following monthly expenses:

  • Dog @ $205.01 (mostly due to emergency vet visit, normal monthly expenses are around $55-$75
  • Car @ $208.62 (insurance, registration, some repairs -- I store at a family member's house in NJ; some of the "General Travel" above include train to/from picking car up/dropping car off)
  • Christmas Gifts @ $830.32 (Nov/Dec grand total, not per-month)

Worst case scenario for a new biglaw associate:

  • Monthly income @ $6500 (deductions for 401k, health)
  • COL expenses @ $2500 (shown above)
  • Loan payments @ $3000 ($250k/7.5%/10yr, like I said worst case)
    Still leaves: $1k/mo for saving (on top of the $1.5k/mo of 401k)

Bottom line: if you want to save, you have to prioritize saving. It doesn't even require ramen & lentils or rice & beans 24/7. I live pretty cheap and still get to enjoy nice shit (go to museums/events/music, the occasional nice restaurant, hang out with Zog team friends, play rec sports, did not include vacation expenses in the above budget but obviously there's room for saving $2.5k/yr for a nice vacation).


this is on the low end though. its easy to spend the entire amount youve alotted for COL just on rent alone for a 600 sq ft studio not even on manhattan. the guy went a little extreme but 40k salary with no loans in cheap COL city> 160k in NYC paying down loans. hes really not wrong that living on a first year's salary in NYC is hardly doable for a single person let alone impossible for a family without major major sacrifices that would not have to be made anywhere else except san fran. obvi, NYC is temporary and 1st year salary is temporary.

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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby anonnymouse » Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:30 pm

Y'all are shifting the goalposts here. The argument was that it was impossible for 2-person or 3-person family to save in high COL even on $200k. It might be on the "low end" and, yeah you can go out and booze for more than $50/mo but I've just shown that it's demonstrably possible not just objectively but empirically.

Edit: like I said in concluding -- you have to prioritize it. Dropping $2500/mo on a 600 sqft studio and boozing it up every month is simply not prioritizing. That's fine. It's what most people do.

Edit 2: buddy of mine lives in Hoboken in a 2 floor brownstone with 2 roommates. Massive living room, walk-in closets, total is $3400 and he pays $1200. Plus he gets the extra $500 of not paying city tax.
Last edited by anonnymouse on Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JohannDeMann
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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby JohannDeMann » Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:33 pm

if anything, your post of showing how its possible to live like a pauper in NYC and save money proves the point he was making of living like a welfare recipient. honestly, i know people on welfare who sling a little weed on the side who live better than what you just described. that sounds miserable. absolutely miserable.

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bk1
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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby bk1 » Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:35 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:this is on the low end though. its easy to spend the entire amount youve alotted for COL just on rent alone for a 600 sq ft studio not even on manhattan. the guy went a little extreme but 40k salary with no loans in cheap COL city> 160k in NYC paying down loans. hes really not wrong that living on a first year's salary in NYC is hardly doable for a single person let alone impossible for a family without major major sacrifices that would not have to be made anywhere else except san fran. obvi, NYC is temporary and 1st year salary is temporary.

If we are assuming 250k+ debt then you may have an argument (if not then lol). Even still, "hardly doable"... give me a fucking break.

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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby JohannDeMann » Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:40 pm

bk1 wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:this is on the low end though. its easy to spend the entire amount youve alotted for COL just on rent alone for a 600 sq ft studio not even on manhattan. the guy went a little extreme but 40k salary with no loans in cheap COL city> 160k in NYC paying down loans. hes really not wrong that living on a first year's salary in NYC is hardly doable for a single person let alone impossible for a family without major major sacrifices that would not have to be made anywhere else except san fran. obvi, NYC is temporary and 1st year salary is temporary.

If we are assuming 250k+ debt then you may have an argument (if not then lol). Even still, "hardly doable"... give me a fucking break.


1000 for rent in NYC is a joke and hes probably sucking dick on the side for that rate. Anything less than 2k per bedroom should be disregarded as just avoiding the question at hand. Unless you are commuting 1 hour plus. Or risking your life.

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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby bk1 » Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:42 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
bk1 wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:this is on the low end though. its easy to spend the entire amount youve alotted for COL just on rent alone for a 600 sq ft studio not even on manhattan. the guy went a little extreme but 40k salary with no loans in cheap COL city> 160k in NYC paying down loans. hes really not wrong that living on a first year's salary in NYC is hardly doable for a single person let alone impossible for a family without major major sacrifices that would not have to be made anywhere else except san fran. obvi, NYC is temporary and 1st year salary is temporary.

If we are assuming 250k+ debt then you may have an argument (if not then lol). Even still, "hardly doable"... give me a fucking break.


1000 for rent in NYC is a joke and hes probably sucking dick on the side for that rate. Anything less than 2k per bedroom should be disregarded as just avoiding the question at hand. Unless you are commuting 1 hour plus. Or risking your life.

What does any of that have to do with what I said?

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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby anonnymouse » Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:42 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:if anything, your post of showing how its possible to live like a pauper in NYC and save money proves the point he was making of living like a welfare recipient. honestly, i know people on welfare who sling a little weed on the side who live better than what you just described. that sounds miserable. absolutely miserable.

You think $40k/yr in low COL is better?

Nothing about my lifestyle is pauperish. I do my own laundry because I don't trust wash n fold. I cook maybe half of my own meals at most. I eat out at nice places a few times a month, I play sports, hang out with friends, chill with my dog, etc, etc. Between pretax, taxable, and debt reduction, my nw increase is over 5.5k/mo. LJL that you'd even think to compare to $40k/yr in low COL.

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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby anonnymouse » Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:44 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
bk1 wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:this is on the low end though. its easy to spend the entire amount youve alotted for COL just on rent alone for a 600 sq ft studio not even on manhattan. the guy went a little extreme but 40k salary with no loans in cheap COL city> 160k in NYC paying down loans. hes really not wrong that living on a first year's salary in NYC is hardly doable for a single person let alone impossible for a family without major major sacrifices that would not have to be made anywhere else except san fran. obvi, NYC is temporary and 1st year salary is temporary.

If we are assuming 250k+ debt then you may have an argument (if not then lol). Even still, "hardly doable"... give me a fucking break.


1000 for rent in NYC is a joke and hes probably sucking dick on the side for that rate. Anything less than 2k per bedroom should be disregarded as just avoiding the question at hand. Unless you are commuting 1 hour plus. Or risking your life.

$2200/mo split w/gf in UES/Yorkville. Rent-stabilized, had the apt since LS. Commute to midtown east is 20 min (GCT).

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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby JohannDeMann » Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:58 pm

cool man good for you. but surely you would understand how a normal person who didnt get the benefit of a rent stabilized apt and liked to have fun normal ways by spending money on booze and restaurants would spend a shitload more than 2500 per month.

the budgets ive seen look more like this:

$2500 rent - 600 sq foot studio in Long Island City (shitty neighborhood) 15 min commute
or 2 BR on MH for $2750 each.
$1500 - 1 nice dinner per month/a few dinner/bar meetups (for people that really want to live in the city and take advantage of events and food more like $2500 a month
Loan repayment $1250 (for someone $100k in debt on 10 year repayment - this is the low end)
Services and bullshit
Other shit (health insurance/car insurance/car parking/ubers) - $500

On the low end, that's $5,750 per month. If you got fucked and are on the high end there, thats $10k a month. I've lived in Chicago and NYC and the way I live in Chicago that nets me about $5k a month in Chicago would be breaking even or slightly losing money in NYC. People that say you can live in NYC, are right in theory but they are like boomers who talk about $100/month loan payments and have lost all touch with reality and understanding the cuts they actually make. LOL at you thinking you dont live like a welfare recipient right now.

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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:06 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:I've lived in Chicago and NYC and the way I live in Chicago that nets me about $5k a month in Chicago would be breaking even or slightly losing money in NYC.

Come on.
Last edited by Tiago Splitter on Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

anonnymouse
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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby anonnymouse » Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:07 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:cool man good for you. but surely you would understand how a normal person who didnt get the benefit of a rent stabilized apt and liked to have fun normal ways by spending money on booze and restaurants would spend a shitload more than 2500 per month.

the budgets ive seen look more like this:

$2500 rent - 600 sq foot studio in Long Island City (shitty neighborhood) 15 min commute
or 2 BR on MH for $2750 each.
$1500 - 1 nice dinner per month/a few dinner/bar meetups (for people that really want to live in the city and take advantage of events and food more like $2500 a month
Loan repayment $1250 (for someone $100k in debt on 10 year repayment - this is the low end)
Services and bullshit
Other shit (health insurance/car insurance/car parking/ubers) - $500

On the low end, that's $5,750 per month. If you got fucked and are on the high end there, thats $10k a month. I've lived in Chicago and NYC and the way I live in Chicago that nets me about $5k a month in Chicago would be breaking even or slightly losing money in NYC. People that say you can live in NYC, are right in theory but they are like boomers who talk about $100/month loan payments and have lost all touch with reality and understanding the cuts they actually make. LOL at you thinking you dont live like a welfare recipient right now.

Half of the rental market in NYC is rent-stabilized units: http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2015/06/0 ... t_hard.php

Your welfare fantasy is so telling. No chance that a non-married, no dependents person living in NYC would get $30k/yr in benefits. Hell, even the NY Post estimated $38k for collecting EVERY. SINGLE. BENEFIT. AVAILABLE.

But true, I bet your life as a degenerate gambler is tso much better.

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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby anonnymouse » Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:17 pm

I expected this. I'm NOT attacking people that spend more money. All I'm saying is that you can save if you prioritize it. Being an adult entails making difficult decisions, compromising, and sacrifice. It's not wrong to spend $3k on your first apt in the big city. It's not wrong to spend a couple hundred a month going out and drinking, having a good time. But it is wrong to state that you have to and therefore can't save. Just demonstrably, objectively, empirically false.

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bk1
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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby bk1 » Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:38 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:cool man good for you. but surely you would understand how a normal person who didnt get the benefit of a rent stabilized apt and liked to have fun normal ways by spending money on booze and restaurants would spend a shitload more than 2500 per month.

the budgets ive seen look more like this:

$2500 rent - 600 sq foot studio in Long Island City (shitty neighborhood) 15 min commute
or 2 BR on MH for $2750 each.
$1500 - 1 nice dinner per month/a few dinner/bar meetups (for people that really want to live in the city and take advantage of events and food more like $2500 a month
Loan repayment $1250 (for someone $100k in debt on 10 year repayment - this is the low end)
Services and bullshit
Other shit (health insurance/car insurance/car parking/ubers) - $500

On the low end, that's $5,750 per month. If you got fucked and are on the high end there, thats $10k a month. I've lived in Chicago and NYC and the way I live in Chicago that nets me about $5k a month in Chicago would be breaking even or slightly losing money in NYC. People that say you can live in NYC, are right in theory but they are like boomers who talk about $100/month loan payments and have lost all touch with reality and understanding the cuts they actually make. LOL at you thinking you dont live like a welfare recipient right now.

This is not a budget. If you are loose with your money (which is fine if you have the income to support it), of course you are going to spend a lot because you don't limit yourself. But acting like these are requirements or that barely being able to support your 2500/mo going out budget counts as "hardly doable" is laughable.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:46 pm

Wait, $1500-$2500 for food/going out per month?? for one person??

zot1
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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby zot1 » Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:47 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Wait, $1500-$2500 for food/going out per month?? for one person??


You mean you don't eat a 100 dollar dinner almost everyday, Nony?

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:52 pm

zot1 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Wait, $1500-$2500 for food/going out per month?? for one person??


You mean you don't eat a 100 dollar dinner almost everyday, Nony?

I'm sure I could force myself, you know, for science.




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