Student loan payments: Actual numbers

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JenDarby
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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby JenDarby » Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:25 pm

If I paid $500/month (perhaps more or maybe less) for 20 years I wild pay 120k in PAYE payments and then any tax bomb.

My current repayment plan will put me at paying 210k (37k of which is interest, so if I pay early than maybe less) in ten years and then all my money is mine. Worth it to me. Ill be 37 and (law school loans) debt free. And I'll still have 20 some good working years left! Fml

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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:25 pm

AVBucks4239 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:$320K combined household PAYE-eligible student debt, $160k combined income, early 30s.

My fear is that actually attempting to pay off the debt will rob us of all cash for the next 10 years. This isn't really possible w/kids, desire to save for a house downpayment, emergency fund, and other expenses incurred in your 30s. Alternatively, we could PAYE for 20 years and keep some cash for the tax bomb.

Realistically, where is the line for paying the debt vs. riding the PAYE train?

I used to post your question all the time. I think it's an adjustable line depending on income/family situation, but you're well past the line. PAYE and get your AGI down for as long as humanly possible. Both of you max out your 401k ($37k), HSA, 529s, etc. and get your payments down. Then you'll be paying less on your loans and increasing your savings rate.

FWIW, the anonymous poster above who paid off $200k in debt could probably have well over half a million in investments (at least, given the high returns in 2012, 2013, etc.) had he/she acted rationally/logically instead of emotionally. But hey, personal finance is personal, and he/she probably feels pretty good about being debt free.


I'm the poster who paid off 200k debt. And yes, I feel much better about having no debt. Regardless, I don't think I qualified for PAYE anyway (given when I took out loans), but paying off debt means no tax bomb down the line.

My spouse and I are now positive six figure net worth and neither of us have any loans (spouse didn't have any in the first place). Now we can do pretty much whatever we want. We're lucky enough to some day inherit a few million (not going to provide more details) so we don't really have to worry about retirement to be frank. Any money that we save now is our money forever and we won't be screwed by the government pulling the rug from under us with any loans that we may have had (had we even qualified for PAYE in the first place).

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fats provolone
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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby fats provolone » Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:56 pm

Hindsight is 20/20 so I'm not gonna give you shit for your financial decisions years ago but do recognize that the situation for recent grads is different.

Also your circumstances sound pretty unique regardless.

Grats on your net worth tho

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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:05 pm

Accidental anon...
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby AVBucks4239 » Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm the poster who paid off 200k debt. And yes, I feel much better about having no debt. Regardless, I don't think I qualified for PAYE anyway (given when I took out loans), but paying off debt means no tax bomb down the line.

My spouse and I are now positive six figure net worth and neither of us have any loans (spouse didn't have any in the first place). Now we can do pretty much whatever we want. We're lucky enough to some day inherit a few million (not going to provide more details) so we don't really have to worry about retirement to be frank. Any money that we save now is our money forever and we won't be screwed by the government pulling the rug from under us with any loans that we may have had (had we even qualified for PAYE in the first place).


Your posts read the same as somebody who paid off a mortgage way ahead of schedule. I get that the emotional appeal and "freedom" is huge, but the numbers almost never add up to that being the right move.

Don't get me wrong--you obviously have your shit in order if you paid off that much debt in three years. You're doing significantly better than average obviously. It sounds like you might be a disciple of ERE or MMM or one of those forums, so congrats if you are on that path (google "shockingly simple math behind early retirement").

BUT...I would just caution others to not follow this example because the math (especially in terms of TMV) almost always favors using PAYE to pay as little towards your loans as possible. At worst, it acts as a tremendous hedge if shit hits the fan. At best, you strategically organize your debt as part of your overall personal finance strategy and save as aggressively as possible on a road to a reasonably early retirement.

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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:28 pm

AVBucks4239 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm the poster who paid off 200k debt. And yes, I feel much better about having no debt. Regardless, I don't think I qualified for PAYE anyway (given when I took out loans), but paying off debt means no tax bomb down the line.

My spouse and I are now positive six figure net worth and neither of us have any loans (spouse didn't have any in the first place). Now we can do pretty much whatever we want. We're lucky enough to some day inherit a few million (not going to provide more details) so we don't really have to worry about retirement to be frank. Any money that we save now is our money forever and we won't be screwed by the government pulling the rug from under us with any loans that we may have had (had we even qualified for PAYE in the first place).


Your posts read the same as somebody who paid off a mortgage way ahead of schedule. I get that the emotional appeal and "freedom" is huge, but the numbers almost never add up to that being the right move.

Don't get me wrong--you obviously have your shit in order if you paid off that much debt in three years. You're doing significantly better than average obviously. It sounds like you might be a disciple of ERE or MMM or one of those forums, so congrats if you are on that path (google "shockingly simple math behind early retirement").

BUT...I would just caution others to not follow this example because the math (especially in terms of TMV) almost always favors using PAYE to pay as little towards your loans as possible. At worst, it acts as a tremendous hedge if shit hits the fan. At best, you strategically organize your debt as part of your overall personal finance strategy and save as aggressively as possible on a road to a reasonably early retirement.


Fair enough. We never did the calculation on that since neither of us qualified for PAYE (and one of us didnt have any loans anyway).

I will say that a ton of lawyers blow money like water. I see that all the time in biglaw, even among those with six figure loans. They will nickle and dime stuff like food, but then pay 4k a month on rent. It reminds me of that saying - don't lose sight of the forest for the trees? Some bullshit like that. It's amazing how many midlevels and even seniors still have six figure debt (and obviously these people didn't qualify for PAYE). The main key to paying off debt/retiring early is to reduce consumption - yes, you have to sacrifice, but it'd be pretty amazing to comfortably retire at 45 (which is my current plan anyway) to do whatever we want for the rest of our lives. Even though we're likely going to inherit a few million, we still scrimp and save so that we can hopefully live the second half of our lives doing what we want (hopefully, not an office job or law).

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lacrossebrother
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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby lacrossebrother » Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:45 pm

JenDarby wrote:If I paid $500/month (perhaps more or maybe less) for 20 years I wild pay 120k in PAYE payments and then any tax bomb.

My current repayment plan will put me at paying 210k (37k of which is interest, so if I pay early than maybe less) in ten years and then all my money is mine. Worth it to me. Ill be 37 and (law school loans) debt free. And I'll still have 20 some good working years left! Fml

This makes zero sense. You're paying more money over a less time frame. You can setup a separate bank account that your firm direct deposits into and does auto-payments.

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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby hous » Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:09 pm

1) refinance SL (EDIT: ONLY IF YOU ARENT ELIGIBLE FOR PSLF AND YOU WILL END UP PAYING THE LOANS OFF ANYWAYS WITHOUT REPAYE OR IBR), 2) puts 5.5k in IRA, 3) put 18k in 401k, 4) don't try to keep up with the Jones', 5) save even more, 6) get free travel by churning credit card promotions, 7) eat out much less and cook more, 8) retire comfortably in 15 years MAX.

I did the above (working on 8) and got over $1200 in free airfare for just having good credit and opening two credit cards that I will cancel before I have any annual fees (AMEX Premier Gold and American Airlines Mastercard). Increased my net worth from -$62k to -$24k (-18k today, 14 months in) in exactly 12 months of working with a salary of under $70k. My advise, do the same and eat healthy. Even when I'm in court hours from home you better believe I have my lunch box in my car. Eating out less saves an ungodly amount of money. My wife and I spend $40 a week tops on eating out for the both of us, its generally a meal a week. My paralegal spends $50 a week on lunch alone, this is can be a huge financial dump. Dress nicely, don't look like an ambulance chaser. Appearance means a lot in this profession and that can be very expensive, but there are monster deals out there. I'm talking about $15 dollars for a new Brooks Brothers dress shirt or $8 dollars for a pre-owned $200 tie on Ebay. This takes patience but it pays dividends when you get nice clothes that last longer. Do spend time and money (responsibly) with co-workers. Charities, birthdays, drinks after work - partake. Finally, set goals. My goal is to get my net worth to $23k ten months from now (save 3.5k a month).

My referral code to refinance student loans with Sofi (we each get $100 if you refinance with this link): https://www.sofi.com/refer/234/11233
Last edited by hous on Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:13 pm

Would the line between refi vs. PAYE/IBR change when some of the debt is private? I have 210k overall with about 60k of it in private loans, and I'm not currently eligible for PAYE. Since I'll have to pay the 60k of private loans back either way, does that push the decision in the direction of refinancing? FWIW my spouse and I will be making about 200k combined next year.

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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby hous » Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Would the line between refi vs. PAYE/IBR change when some of the debt is private? I have 210k overall with about 60k of it in private loans, and I'm not currently eligible for PAYE. Since I'll have to pay the 60k of private loans back either way, does that push the decision in the direction of refinancing? FWIW my spouse and I will be making about 200k combined next year.


I wouldn't tell you to refi if I didn't honestly think it would be in your best interest. Refinance it. With a household income of $200k you will certainly not benefit from PAYE or IBR. You are going to pay your loans off in full anyways.

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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:44 pm

First year associate in major non-NYC market. I had a good scholarship, worked during 2L and 3L and luckily ended up only $45k in debt, interest rates are between 5.4% and 6.4% on all gov't loans. Salary is typical biglaw $160k. I have always planned on paying the debt off as soon as possible. But my rent is over $2k and I can buy something if I save enough over the next 12 months.

Is there any benefit to refinancing and lowering the interest rates on the loans? And would it be better to save or pay off the debt?

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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby hous » Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:First year associate in major non-NYC market. I had a good scholarship, worked during 2L and 3L and luckily ended up only $45k in debt, interest rates are between 5.4% and 6.4% on all gov't loans. Salary is typical biglaw $160k. I have always planned on paying the debt off as soon as possible. But my rent is over $2k and I can buy something if I save enough over the next 12 months.

Is there any benefit to refinancing and lowering the interest rates on the loans? And would it be better to save or pay off the debt?


Refinance. Save everything you can while making minimum SL payments. Put down enough on a home to avoid PMI. Either put everything in the house or invest in retirement/brokerage accounts in your home loan is under 4%. General rule is to put your money in mutual funds if your interest rates are 4% or lower but Im a proponent of paying off a home quicker. They cant take your degree away but they can take your home if your financial situation takes a turn for the worse. You are in a fantastic position, congratulations!

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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:10 am

I am curious if this is the right way to look at this.

I have about 250k that I am looking to refinance. My weighted rate of the loan I am refinance is 7.00% (combined undergrad (both government and private) and law school).

My 10-year fixed payment without a refi would be $2,990. If I go with a 10-year variable refi (3.875% base + 1 month LIBOR) my payment would be around $2,550, saving me $440 a month over the 10-year span ($52,800 total). I also looked into a 15-year fixed refi with a rate at 6.375%. This would take my payment to $2,175 a month, saving me $815 a month (roughly $98,000 total if you calculate the savings during the 10-year period).

My question is this: If I go to a 15-year fixed refi, I am saving $815 a month in payments, but the extra 5 years of interest would cost me about $32,000. Am I spending $32,000 (the extra interest) to gain $66,000 (the difference in payment savings ($98,000) less the extra interest ($32,000))? Is that the proper way to look at this? Or am I really spending $32,000 (the extra interest) to save $13,200 (the difference between the $66,000 estimated earnings less the $52,800 I would have saved with a 10-year variable)?

Does any of this make sense? I am just trying to figure out if it makes financial sense to go with a 15-year fixed and have some more cash each year, but have to pay an extra $32,000 in interest to get it.

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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby hous » Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:01 am

Anonymous User wrote:I am curious if this is the right way to look at this.

I have about 250k that I am looking to refinance. My weighted rate of the loan I am refinance is 7.00% (combined undergrad (both government and private) and law school).

My 10-year fixed payment without a refi would be $2,990. If I go with a 10-year variable refi (3.875% base + 1 month LIBOR) my payment would be around $2,550, saving me $440 a month over the 10-year span ($52,800 total). I also looked into a 15-year fixed refi with a rate at 6.375%. This would take my payment to $2,175 a month, saving me $815 a month (roughly $98,000 total if you calculate the savings during the 10-year period).

My question is this: If I go to a 15-year fixed refi, I am saving $815 a month in payments, but the extra 5 years of interest would cost me about $32,000. Am I spending $32,000 (the extra interest) to gain $66,000 (the difference in payment savings ($98,000) less the extra interest ($32,000))? Is that the proper way to look at this? Or am I really spending $32,000 (the extra interest) to save $13,200 (the difference between the $66,000 estimated earnings less the $52,800 I would have saved with a 10-year variable)?

Does any of this make sense? I am just trying to figure out if it makes financial sense to go with a 15-year fixed and have some more cash each year, but have to pay an extra $32,000 in interest to get it.


The simplified question is at what interest rate do I want to throw every penny I earn at other investments vs. paying off the loan as a priority. Its hard to say. I've been told 4% is a good benchmark. So if you have an interest rate over 4% its best to throw every red cent at it. I would first reevaluate whether refinancing is right for you because $250k is a serious amount of money even on a biglaw salary. If you are making $160k a year then perhaps its not the worse idea but I would be hesitant because you lose a lot of safety nets that government backed loans provide. That said, if I had to chose and I could afford the $3k/month, I would probably go with the 10-year fixed and just rush to pay it off ASAP (early if possible).

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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby JohannDeMann » Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:18 am

Anonymous User wrote:
AVBucks4239 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:$320K combined household PAYE-eligible student debt, $160k combined income, early 30s.

My fear is that actually attempting to pay off the debt will rob us of all cash for the next 10 years. This isn't really possible w/kids, desire to save for a house downpayment, emergency fund, and other expenses incurred in your 30s. Alternatively, we could PAYE for 20 years and keep some cash for the tax bomb.

Realistically, where is the line for paying the debt vs. riding the PAYE train?

I used to post your question all the time. I think it's an adjustable line depending on income/family situation, but you're well past the line. PAYE and get your AGI down for as long as humanly possible. Both of you max out your 401k ($37k), HSA, 529s, etc. and get your payments down. Then you'll be paying less on your loans and increasing your savings rate.

FWIW, the anonymous poster above who paid off $200k in debt could probably have well over half a million in investments (at least, given the high returns in 2012, 2013, etc.) had he/she acted rationally/logically instead of emotionally. But hey, personal finance is personal, and he/she probably feels pretty good about being debt free.


I'm the poster who paid off 200k debt. And yes, I feel much better about having no debt. Regardless, I don't think I qualified for PAYE anyway (given when I took out loans), but paying off debt means no tax bomb down the line.

My spouse and I are now positive six figure net worth and neither of us have any loans (spouse didn't have any in the first place). Now we can do pretty much whatever we want. We're lucky enough to some day inherit a few million (not going to provide more details) so we don't really have to worry about retirement to be frank. Any money that we save now is our money forever and we won't be screwed by the government pulling the rug from under us with any loans that we may have had (had we even qualified for PAYE in the first place).


What a little Pusey ass fucking bitch. You do realize your net worth that you earned would be 2x greater at the min had you been smart about your finances and done PAYE? But cool dude I guess inheriting a few million is suppose to make us jealous that you were stupid and still taken care of. No one gives a fuck and you fucked up. You should have done PAYE but you were a scared little bitch about some debt and let it dictate your decisions.

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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby JohannDeMann » Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:29 am

hous wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Would the line between refi vs. PAYE/IBR change when some of the debt is private? I have 210k overall with about 60k of it in private loans, and I'm not currently eligible for PAYE. Since I'll have to pay the 60k of private loans back either way, does that push the decision in the direction of refinancing? FWIW my spouse and I will be making about 200k combined next year.


I wouldn't tell you to refi if I didn't honestly think it would be in your best interest. Refinance it. With a household income of $200k you will certainly not benefit from PAYE or IBR. You are going to pay your loans off in full anyways.


Talking out your ass. I make 160k and SO makes 60k + and we have not refinanced. It's all about cash flow. We've banned over 140k in 1 year. Literally everyone should do PAYE the first year out of law school. Stop being so scared of debt you fucks. This shit is infuriating people giving the wrong advice when they have nothing to show for it.

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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby JohannDeMann » Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:33 am

[quote="Anonymous User"]I am curious if this is the right way to look at this.

I have about 250k that I am looking to refinance. My weighted rate of the loan I am refinance is 7.00% (combined undergrad (both government and private) and law school).

My 10-year fixed payment without a refi would be $2,990. If I go with a 10-year variable refi (3.875% base + 1 month LIBOR) my payment would be around $2,550, saving me $440 a month over the 10-year span ($52,800 total). I also looked into a 15-year fixed refi with a rate at 6.375%. This would take my payment to $2,175 a month, saving me $815 a month (roughly $98,000 total if you calculate the savings during the 10-year period).

My question is this: If I go to a 15-year fixed refi, I am saving $815 a month in payments, but the extra 5 years of interest would cost me about $32,000. Am I spending $32,000 (the extra interest) to gain $66,000 (the difference in payment savings ($98,000) less the extra interest ($32,000))? Is that the proper way to look at this? Or am I really spending $32,000 (the extra interest) to save $13,200 (the difference between the $66,000 estimated earnings less the $52,800 I would have saved with a 10-year variable)?

The latter. 32 to save 13k but you a rent discounting cash flow for those 5 years. Don't refi yet. PAYE and refi next year for 15 years

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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:21 am

Anonymous User wrote:Graduating with just under $200k in debt.

Does it make sense to take out on loan on real estate to pay for part or all of this debt as quickly as possible?



Bump. Does this make sense or should I refi or PAYE?

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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby lacrossebrother » Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:27 am

Why would the security be relevant? What's the rate?

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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:33 am

.

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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:28 am

has anyone ever refinanced around 75k in loans and actually received a 1.9% interest rate? I'll be paid 190k plus bonus.

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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:17 am

JohannDeMann wrote:Talking out your ass. I make 160k and SO makes 60k + and we have not refinanced. It's all about cash flow. We've banned over 140k in 1 year. Literally everyone should do PAYE the first year out of law school. Stop being so scared of debt you fucks. This shit is infuriating people giving the wrong advice when they have nothing to show for it.

How the fuck have you saved 140k on a 220k income?

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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby mvp99 » Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:57 am

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:Talking out your ass. I make 160k and SO makes 60k + and we have not refinanced. It's all about cash flow. We've banned over 140k in 1 year. Literally everyone should do PAYE the first year out of law school. Stop being so scared of debt you fucks. This shit is infuriating people giving the wrong advice when they have nothing to show for it.

How the fuck have you saved 140k on a 220k income?


He/she will have to explain that to the IRS very soon (and he/she might be get a fine).

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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby barkschool » Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:24 am

mvp99 wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:Talking out your ass. I make 160k and SO makes 60k + and we have not refinanced. It's all about cash flow. We've banned over 140k in 1 year. Literally everyone should do PAYE the first year out of law school. Stop being so scared of debt you fucks. This shit is infuriating people giving the wrong advice when they have nothing to show for it.

How the fuck have you saved 140k on a 220k income?


He/she will have to explain that to the IRS very soon (and he/she might be get a fine).


IRS using TLS chat as evidence for 30 day deficiency letter

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Re: Student loan payments: Actual numbers

Postby JenDarby » Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:27 am

lacrossebrother wrote:
JenDarby wrote:If I paid $500/month (perhaps more or maybe less) for 20 years I wild pay 120k in PAYE payments and then any tax bomb.

My current repayment plan will put me at paying 210k (37k of which is interest, so if I pay early than maybe less) in ten years and then all my money is mine. Worth it to me. Ill be 37 and (law school loans) debt free. And I'll still have 20 some good working years left! Fml

This makes zero sense. You're paying more money over a less time frame. You can setup a separate bank account that your firm direct deposits into and does auto-payments.

Its highly unlikely my payments on PAYE will average $500 a month over 20 years. It's far more likely they will average more and at some points max out the PAYE limits. I will at this point likely end up paying less than 200k total on my loans with my refi. If my payments were even $800 a month on PAYE then I would pay 192k PLUS any tax bomb.




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