OCS doesn't want me to have a job...

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LeDique
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Re: OCS doesn't want me to have a job...

Postby LeDique » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:44 pm

Yeah, I doubt it's career services fault. It seems they're making the correct legal interpretation though, especially because of the FLSA's broad "suffer or to permit to work" language could make the school liable. The company could actually try to do things the right way, and you know, pay.

I'm curious what formal letter you're referring to that says class credit is acceptable in lieu of payment because that's never been relevant to the six factors as far as I'm aware.

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kalvano
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Re: OCS doesn't want me to have a job...

Postby kalvano » Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:11 am

There's an add-on part to the 6 factors where it talks about for-credit programs being strongly in favor of it being academic in nature and thus exempt.

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wiseowl
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Re: OCS doesn't want me to have a job...

Postby wiseowl » Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:13 am

I'd draft an email to ATL and attach the draft in an email to the dean, the head of OCS, and the dean of students, and say "Guess I'll have to send this, but I reallllly don't want to."

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kalvano
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Re: OCS doesn't want me to have a job...

Postby kalvano » Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:47 am

I would kidnap the Dean and torture him until he gives in. It works in the movies.

Sammy841
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Re: OCS doesn't want me to have a job...

Postby Sammy841 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:08 pm

I knew someone in a similar dilemma. She just did the internship and wrote a research paper with a professor in the fall about issues related to her summer work. So she received credit in the fall.

Anonymous User
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Re: OCS doesn't want me to have a job...

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:25 pm

OP here. Spoke with a counselor from OCS today. He said it is generally the rule that students are not allowed credit when interning for for-profit corporations, so this is why I was given an immediate "no" when I called yesterday. I asked about externships and he said that the chances aren't good that the people in charge of externships would allow it, but that it was worth asking about. I think I have a better shot since this corporation has hired students from other schools and given them credit - I doubt my school would want to be seen as the bad guy when being compared to other, better schools (then again, maybe they wouldn't care).

Regardless of whether the externship committee allows this, I'm going to speak to a professor I have ties with and see if he would consider sponsoring me in an independent study course for the summer. He wouldn't really have to do anything, and he is a great guy who I'm confident would agree to this. Again, OCS said this may not be approved, but my chances are okay. Last in the arsenal is the community college plan - I'd register at a local CC, just so I can get some sort of credit from this internship (since the corporation HAS to give credit per their own policies). It would be great to get law school credit, but this job is worth it for the experience alone. To the poster that suggested this idea - thank you!

Fingers crossed that something works out. I'm pretty down on OCS right now, although the counselor I spoke with today was a decent guy and he did give a (slightly) reasonable explanation for the school's policy. However, it shouldn't be this painful.

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rinkrat19
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Re: OCS doesn't want me to have a job...

Postby rinkrat19 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here. Spoke with a counselor from OCS today. He said it is generally the rule that students are not allowed credit when interning for for-profit corporations, so this is why I was given an immediate "no" when I called yesterday.

"Generally the rule" for your school? Because if they try to say it's "generally the rule" at most schools, you may be able to collect enough names of schools that allow it to call BS.

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LeDique
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Re: OCS doesn't want me to have a job...

Postby LeDique » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:44 pm

kalvano wrote:There's an add-on part to the 6 factors where it talks about for-credit programs being strongly in favor of it being academic in nature and thus exempt.


I think you're overstating it as a "safe haven" then (or I think you were the one who called it that). And admittedly, I understated it by calling it irrelevant when I meant not dispositive:

the more an internship program is structured around a classroom or academic experience as opposed to the employer’s actual operations, the more likely the internship will be viewed as an extension of the individual’s educational experience (this often occurs where a college or university exercises oversight over the internship program and provides educational credit)

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Re: OCS doesn't want me to have a job...

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:46 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here. Spoke with a counselor from OCS today. He said it is generally the rule that students are not allowed credit when interning for for-profit corporations, so this is why I was given an immediate "no" when I called yesterday.

"Generally the rule" for your school? Because if they try to say it's "generally the rule" at most schools, you may be able to collect enough names of schools that allow it to call BS.


I think he meant generally just for my school. But I am absolutely planning on showing the externship committee all the schools that do allow it, to put pressure on them. I also have a list of students from other schools that have done this internship for credit before (NYU, Cornell, a few others) so that should help as well.

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LeDique
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Re: OCS doesn't want me to have a job...

Postby LeDique » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:47 pm

I mean, you could show the school that list, but if their reasoning is an informed decision in order to avoid potential legal liability under the FLSA, I don't think that really matters.

hiima3L
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Re: OCS doesn't want me to have a job...

Postby hiima3L » Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:24 pm

I don't think it's your OCS's fault. I'm pretty sure it's an ABA rule that you can't get school credit for volunteering at a for-profit company.

Anyway, I think striking up a deal with a prof to get RA credit could work. The rules for RA credit are tremendously flexible at every school from what I have gathered.

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rinkrat19
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Re: OCS doesn't want me to have a job...

Postby rinkrat19 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:36 pm

hiima3L wrote:I don't think it's your OCS's fault. I'm pretty sure it's an ABA rule that you can't get school credit for volunteering at a for-profit company.

Other schools beg to disagree.
Corporate Counsel Practicum at NU wrote:Students are placed as externs in general counsel offices of business. Students will be expected to devote 12 hours a week to the corporate law department in which they are placed. While externs can be called upon to do legal research, the purpose of the externship is that they become involved in the life of the law department: attending meetings, observing negotiations, and otherwise gaining an understanding of how law is practiced within a business setting. Students may arrange for their own placements in a corporate counsel's office, provided they obtain approval from the Professor in advance. In addition to the externships, in class discussions relate to issues that are of concern to general counsel, such as selection of counsel, attorney-client privilege, alternative dispute resolution and crisis management. 4 credits.

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LeDique
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Re: OCS doesn't want me to have a job...

Postby LeDique » Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:39 pm

Yes, the ABA has said exactly the opposite. Is it a good rule in a practical "get our students jobs" sense? No. Is it a good rule in the "this is probably illegal" sense? Yes.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: OCS doesn't want me to have a job...

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:54 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:
hiima3L wrote:I don't think it's your OCS's fault. I'm pretty sure it's an ABA rule that you can't get school credit for volunteering at a for-profit company.

Other schools beg to disagree.
Corporate Counsel Practicum at NU wrote:Students are placed as externs in general counsel offices of business. Students will be expected to devote 12 hours a week to the corporate law department in which they are placed. While externs can be called upon to do legal research, the purpose of the externship is that they become involved in the life of the law department: attending meetings, observing negotiations, and otherwise gaining an understanding of how law is practiced within a business setting. Students may arrange for their own placements in a corporate counsel's office, provided they obtain approval from the Professor in advance. In addition to the externships, in class discussions relate to issues that are of concern to general counsel, such as selection of counsel, attorney-client privilege, alternative dispute resolution and crisis management. 4 credits.

I don't think it's an ABA rule so much as the FLSA issue that people have already raised, and I think it's the difference between something that has an actual educational, class component as well as the internship, and getting credit purely for the internship. One of the FLSA factors for an unpaid internship is that it's "similar to training which would be given in an educational environment," and the DOL fact sheet states, "In general, the more an internship program is structured around a classroom or academic experience as opposed to the employer’s actual operations, the more likely the internship will be viewed as an extension of the individual’s educational experience (this often occurs where a college or university exercises oversight over the internship program and provides educational credit)." I suspect if there's an in-class component - as the above description suggests, with reference to the "in class discussions" and professor - a school would feel more comfortable granting the credit.

Of course, this still comes down to choices made by the school (whether to set up some kind of in-class component to make the externship/course credit possible), but it may be that the school doesn't believe enough of its students get such positions to make running an actual course feasible. Or just that this is something there's a professional divide over. (My LS had a sort of "course" requirement for doing an externship, but it was pretty generic and superficial and was not the equivalent of a semester-long course - it was about 2 hours of meetings, total, applied to any kind of work, and didn't carry course credit apart from whatever you were doing for the externship. You only had to do it once, while you could do multiple externships. And my school didn't give credit for internships with for-profit employers, either. OTOH, the other LS in that market does allow externships with private firms, but it offers a 1-credit course that you do in conjunction with the externship.)

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rinkrat19
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Re: OCS doesn't want me to have a job...

Postby rinkrat19 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:03 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:
hiima3L wrote:I don't think it's your OCS's fault. I'm pretty sure it's an ABA rule that you can't get school credit for volunteering at a for-profit company.

Other schools beg to disagree.
Corporate Counsel Practicum at NU wrote:Students are placed as externs in general counsel offices of business. Students will be expected to devote 12 hours a week to the corporate law department in which they are placed. While externs can be called upon to do legal research, the purpose of the externship is that they become involved in the life of the law department: attending meetings, observing negotiations, and otherwise gaining an understanding of how law is practiced within a business setting. Students may arrange for their own placements in a corporate counsel's office, provided they obtain approval from the Professor in advance. In addition to the externships, in class discussions relate to issues that are of concern to general counsel, such as selection of counsel, attorney-client privilege, alternative dispute resolution and crisis management. 4 credits.

I don't think it's an ABA rule so much as the FLSA issue that people have already raised, and I think it's the difference between something that has an actual educational, class component as well as the internship, and getting credit purely for the internship. One of the FLSA factors for an unpaid internship is that it's "similar to training which would be given in an educational environment," and the DOL fact sheet states, "In general, the more an internship program is structured around a classroom or academic experience as opposed to the employer’s actual operations, the more likely the internship will be viewed as an extension of the individual’s educational experience (this often occurs where a college or university exercises oversight over the internship program and provides educational credit)." I suspect if there's an in-class component - as the above description suggests, with reference to the "in class discussions" and professor - a school would feel more comfortable granting the credit.

Of course, this still comes down to choices made by the school (whether to set up some kind of in-class component to make the externship/course credit possible), but it may be that the school doesn't believe enough of its students get such positions to make running an actual course feasible. Or just that this is something there's a professional divide over. (My LS had a sort of "course" requirement for doing an externship, but it was pretty generic and superficial and was not the equivalent of a semester-long course - it was about 2 hours of meetings, total, applied to any kind of work, and didn't carry course credit apart from whatever you were doing for the externship. You only had to do it once, while you could do multiple externships. And my school didn't give credit for internships with for-profit employers, either. OTOH, the other LS in that market does allow externships with private firms, but it offers a 1-credit course that you do in conjunction with the externship.)

Damn, my summer practicum was like 30 hours of class, plus weekly journals, plus a paper.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: OCS doesn't want me to have a job...

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:14 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:Damn, my summer practicum was like 30 hours of class, plus weekly journals, plus a paper.

:lol: Guess that explains why NU would be willing to bet on that counting as an "educational experience." Thinking about it, our externship training thing was actually more like 4 hours, but it was the most useless "course" I've ever ever taken. It was taught by the very nice Dean of Students who clearly hadn't actually taught a class in yonks because he had no idea how to run a discussion whatsoever. Also, all our externship credits were P/F, which probably made them even less "educational." I think I had to fill out a 1 p. form describing the projects I did over the semester? That's about it.

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Re: OCS doesn't want me to have a job...

Postby rad lulz » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:29 pm

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Re: OCS doesn't want me to have a job...

Postby rad lulz » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:58 pm

,
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hiima3L
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Re: OCS doesn't want me to have a job...

Postby hiima3L » Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:58 am

rinkrat19 wrote:
hiima3L wrote:I don't think it's your OCS's fault. I'm pretty sure it's an ABA rule that you can't get school credit for volunteering at a for-profit company.

Other schools beg to disagree.
Corporate Counsel Practicum at NU wrote:Students are placed as externs in general counsel offices of business. Students will be expected to devote 12 hours a week to the corporate law department in which they are placed. While externs can be called upon to do legal research, the purpose of the externship is that they become involved in the life of the law department: attending meetings, observing negotiations, and otherwise gaining an understanding of how law is practiced within a business setting. Students may arrange for their own placements in a corporate counsel's office, provided they obtain approval from the Professor in advance. In addition to the externships, in class discussions relate to issues that are of concern to general counsel, such as selection of counsel, attorney-client privilege, alternative dispute resolution and crisis management. 4 credits.


Oh, good. I was under the impression it was an ABA rule as I'm almost positive my OCS/intern supervisor told me (and others) that.

Yet another reason to shart on my alma mater.

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rinkrat19
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Re: OCS doesn't want me to have a job...

Postby rinkrat19 » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:01 pm

hiima3L wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:
hiima3L wrote:I don't think it's your OCS's fault. I'm pretty sure it's an ABA rule that you can't get school credit for volunteering at a for-profit company.

Other schools beg to disagree.
Corporate Counsel Practicum at NU wrote:Students are placed as externs in general counsel offices of business. Students will be expected to devote 12 hours a week to the corporate law department in which they are placed. While externs can be called upon to do legal research, the purpose of the externship is that they become involved in the life of the law department: attending meetings, observing negotiations, and otherwise gaining an understanding of how law is practiced within a business setting. Students may arrange for their own placements in a corporate counsel's office, provided they obtain approval from the Professor in advance. In addition to the externships, in class discussions relate to issues that are of concern to general counsel, such as selection of counsel, attorney-client privilege, alternative dispute resolution and crisis management. 4 credits.


Oh, good. I was under the impression it was an ABA rule as I'm almost positive my OCS/intern supervisor told me (and others) that.

Yet another reason to shart on my alma mater.

I think the ABA just has an hours requirement, and a ban on getting both money and credit. That's what I was told when I had to turn down the (modest) pay to get credit for my govt gig this summer.




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