What to think about V100

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Anonymous User
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What to think about V100

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:11 pm

I didn't do as well as I had hoped this OCI cycle and will be spending next summer at a V100 in NYC.

I am of course thrilled to have a job, and feel lucky for that fact, and I actually really liked the firm when I visited and think I will enjoy it, but I'm wondering how I should feel about this in terms of my overall career prospects.

TLS collected wisdom seems to be split on this.

On the one side there is:
    the difference between V100 and V50 5 years out is marginal
    lateralling up from V100 for the sake of relative prestige is incredibly stupid


On the other side there is:
    overall career trajectory from a V100 compared to a V50 or V25 is significantly weaker
    [these V100 firms] are mediocre and if you can you should "trade-up" in order to better position yourself for exit options down the line
    people don't go from V100 to V50 or V25, you can only lateral down, so start at this best firm you can

I was wondering if anyone could reconcile some of these points? I guess what i'm wondering most is should I be gunning this year in order to trade-up next summer, or should I pull my head out of TLS-aspie world and realize that V100 NYC is a good place to be, that my career will be fine, and just relax.

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thesealocust
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Re: What to think about V100

Postby thesealocust » Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:21 pm

The vault rankings don't mean anything. Look up your firm's practice areas on Chambers & Partners, look up their clients, big deals, big litigation, etc. Research the firm's financial health and stability. Odds are you'll find overall the picture is less desirable than it is at firms with "higher" vault rankings, but that's just the surface.

Do you know what the vault survey even is? They ask all associates to rank every firm in the country from 1 to 10 in order of PRESTIGE. That's it. Nothing else. It has literally no basis in anything except the vaguest conceptions of big firm attorneys filling out a survey full of names and ampersands they've never heard of or worked with.

You can't draw any fine distinctions between Vault rankings - they're stupid. Broadly speaking the "top" firms are "better" brands than the rest, but there is no merit whatsoever to comparing "V25" to "V100" or w/e.

Closing point: you're going to work for a private business which has hired you 2 years in advance of your start date, will pay you a 6 figure salary for your first job out of professional school, and will charge clients hundreds of dollars per hour for your services. 50,000 people started law school with you and only roughly 5,000 will ever work for a large firm. As many as half may never find worthwhile legal employment.

Think long and hard before feeling anything but awe-struck with respect to your future employer. You don't have to like it, but it's insane to have a sense of inferiority given the objective circumstances.
Last edited by thesealocust on Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What to think about V100

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:39 pm

thesealocust wrote:The vault rankings don't mean anything. Look up your firm's practice areas on Chambers & Partners, look up their clients, big deals, big litigation, etc. Research the firm's financial health and stability. Odds are you'll find overall the picture is less desirable than it is at firms with "higher" vault rankings, but there's literally

Do you know what the vault survey even is? They ask all associates to rank every firm in the country from 1 to 10 in order of PRESTIGE. That's it. Nothing else. It has literally no basis in anything except the vaguest conceptions of big firm attorneys filling out a survey full of names and ampersands they've never heard of or worked with.

You can't draw any fine distinctions between Vault rankings - they're stupid. Broadly speaking the "top" firms are "better" brands than the rest, but there is no merit whatsoever to comparing "V25" to "V100" or w/e.

Closing point: you're going to work for a private business which has hired you 2 years in advance of your start date, will pay you a 6 figure salary for your first job out of professional school, and will charge clients hundreds of dollars per hour for your services. 50,000 people started law school with you and only roughly 5,000 will ever work for a large firm. As many as half may never find worthwhile legal employment.

Think long and hard before feeling anything but awe-struck with respect to your future employer. You don't have to like it, but it's insane to have a sense of inferiority given the objective circumstances.


I appreciate this response. Despite my initial disappointment with my relative performance during OCI, I did feel very happy and pleased upon accepting the offer with my firm.

The only reason I've started to have above feelings, however, is due to reaction from my classmates and network. The vast majority of my classmates did exceedingly well at OCI (I don't know anyone without an offer, and of those with offers, about 80% are V20). My friends now look down on me because of the firm I accepted and seem to think its on a different level, not worth being included in discussions of anything next-summer related. They also often ask me if i'm going to do 3L OCI and seem to imply that my career is kind of stunted compared to theirs.

If that might seem ridiculous, I've had a slightly similar response from lawyers in my network. A connection of mine was encouraging me to do V5 this summer and even tried to pull some strings for me during recruiting. That obviously didn't work out. When I told him where I ended up accepting he was not pleased and had a hard time hiding his disappointment, and doesn't seem too enthusiastic about my prospects. I have had similar responses from a few other attorneys, one of whom said 'anywhere else would have been better', although some have been more encouraging.

Maybe i'm just surrounded by obnoxious prestige-obsessed people, but all of this is just making me think that there is a significant downside to where I will be going. Its hard, when receiving these responses, to not feel like trading-up is in my best interest, even if I am on the lucky side of law students already.

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thesealocust
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Re: What to think about V100

Postby thesealocust » Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:44 pm

You are surrounded by obnoxious prestige-obsessed people. This is unlikely to change in any material way... ever.

Ours is a truly awful profession.

If you want my advice, I recommend a drinking problem.

rad lulz
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Re: What to think about V100

Postby rad lulz » Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:06 pm

k
Last edited by rad lulz on Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What to think about V100

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:04 am

rad lulz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
thesealocust wrote:The vault rankings don't mean anything. Look up your firm's practice areas on Chambers & Partners, look up their clients, big deals, big litigation, etc. Research the firm's financial health and stability. Odds are you'll find overall the picture is less desirable than it is at firms with "higher" vault rankings, but there's literally

Do you know what the vault survey even is? They ask all associates to rank every firm in the country from 1 to 10 in order of PRESTIGE. That's it. Nothing else. It has literally no basis in anything except the vaguest conceptions of big firm attorneys filling out a survey full of names and ampersands they've never heard of or worked with.

You can't draw any fine distinctions between Vault rankings - they're stupid. Broadly speaking the "top" firms are "better" brands than the rest, but there is no merit whatsoever to comparing "V25" to "V100" or w/e.

Closing point: you're going to work for a private business which has hired you 2 years in advance of your start date, will pay you a 6 figure salary for your first job out of professional school, and will charge clients hundreds of dollars per hour for your services. 50,000 people started law school with you and only roughly 5,000 will ever work for a large firm. As many as half may never find worthwhile legal employment.

Think long and hard before feeling anything but awe-struck with respect to your future employer. You don't have to like it, but it's insane to have a sense of inferiority given the objective circumstances.


I appreciate this response. Despite my initial disappointment with my relative performance during OCI, I did feel very happy and pleased upon accepting the offer with my firm.

The only reason I've started to have above feelings, however, is due to reaction from my classmates and network. The vast majority of my classmates did exceedingly well at OCI (I don't know anyone without an offer, and of those with offers, about 80% are V20). My friends now look down on me because of the firm I accepted and seem to think its on a different level, not worth being included in discussions of anything next-summer related. They also often ask me if i'm going to do 3L OCI and seem to imply that my career is kind of stunted compared to theirs.

If that might seem ridiculous, I've had a slightly similar response from lawyers in my network. A connection of mine was encouraging me to do V5 this summer and even tried to pull some strings for me during recruiting. That obviously didn't work out. When I told him where I ended up accepting he was not pleased and had a hard time hiding his disappointment, and doesn't seem too enthusiastic about my prospects. I have had similar responses from a few other attorneys, one of whom said 'anywhere else would have been better', although some have been more encouraging.

Maybe i'm just surrounded by obnoxious prestige-obsessed people, but all of this is just making me think that there is a significant downside to where I will be going. Its hard, when receiving these responses, to not feel like trading-up is in my best interest, even if I am on the lucky side of law students already.

fuck what your classmates think

lawyers and law students are the worst


Agreed, I am in the same boat as you. But i think your friends are just excited. Who cares what they think. You have a job that pays 100k+. You are in a good school. You will do great things with your degree and your career. Fuck the fake prestige

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Re: What to think about V100

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:27 am

Anonymous User wrote:The vast majority of my classmates did exceedingly well at OCI (I don't know anyone without an offer, and of those with offers, about 80% are V20)
:lol: :lol: :lol: The law school where this is true doesn't exist. I don't believe 80% of HYS get offers at V20 firms.
Anonymous User wrote:My friends now look down on me because of the firm I accepted and seem to think its on a different level, not worth being included in discussions of anything next-summer related. They also often ask me if i'm going to do 3L OCI and seem to imply that my career is kind of stunted compared to theirs.
These are not friends. These are "shitheads."
Anonymous User wrote:When I told him where I ended up accepting he was not pleased and had a hard time hiding his disappointment, and doesn't seem too enthusiastic about my prospects. I have had similar responses from a few other attorneys, one of whom said 'anywhere else would have been better', although some have been more encouraging.
...and this is a good time to remember that lawyers are one of the most depressed/depressive/depressing groups of people on the planet.

Working at a slightly less preftigious firm might be a blessing in disguise because you'll have to learn how to tune out all this striver bullshit and be happy with your career on your own terms. Sounds like a lot of the other people around you aren't going to have that particular learning experience any time soon, and they'll probably suffer for it in the long run.

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Danger Zone
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Re: What to think about V100

Postby Danger Zone » Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:29 am

Re: the 80% stat: he said 80% of those with offers are V20, not 80% of the whole class. Also OP, please disregard your idiotic douchebag "friends."

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Re: What to think about V100

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:32 am

Danger Zone wrote:Re: the 80% stat: he said 80% of those with offers are V20, not 80% of the whole class. Also OP, please disregard your idiotic douchebag "friends."

Doesn't really make much of a difference, does it? I might be willing to accept that at Yale, 80% of whatever chunk of the class who deign to interview for biglaw get V20 offers. Otherwise I don't believe for a second it's anything other than confirmation bias/a small bunch of prestige-whoring douchebags running their mouths disproportionately loudly.

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Re: What to think about V100

Postby Danger Zone » Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:37 am

It kind of makes a huge difference. This will be my last post about this, since I hate when I get all nitpicky and law student-y, but consider the difference between:

1) a class of 100 students where 5 get big law offers, 4 of which are V20

2) a class of 100 students where 80 receive V20 offers

Obviously these are extreme examples, but the former is far more plausible.

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Re: What to think about V100

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:41 am

Danger Zone wrote:It kind of makes a huge difference. This will be my last post about this, since I hate when I get all nitpicky and law student-y, but consider the difference between:

1) a class of 100 students where 5 get big law offers, 4 of which are V20

2) a class of 100 students where 80 receive V20 offers

Obviously these are extreme examples, but the former is far more plausible.

Okay but that school still doesn't exist.

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Hipster but Athletic
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Re: What to think about V100

Postby Hipster but Athletic » Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:56 am

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
Danger Zone wrote:It kind of makes a huge difference. This will be my last post about this, since I hate when I get all nitpicky and law student-y, but consider the difference between:

1) a class of 100 students where 5 get big law offers, 4 of which are V20

2) a class of 100 students where 80 receive V20 offers

Obviously these are extreme examples, but the former is far more plausible.

Okay but that school still doesn't exist.

It'd also turn this into a real douchey thread.

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Re: What to think about V100

Postby run26.2 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:32 am

I can think of four different people in my professional network who have left v20s or v10s for firms you have never heard of and now have significant upside. This is not to justify your decision, but to dispel the notion that you should be obsessed about vault ranking. Learn to be a good lawyer and learn to interact well with clients and you will go far, mostly independent of your firms vault ranking.
Last edited by run26.2 on Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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mr. wednesday
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Re: What to think about V100

Postby mr. wednesday » Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:48 am

It's much more likely that one or more of your shit talking friends will be no offered than that you will be able to get a position at an almost non-existent 3L OCI. Plus, if you actually don't hate working at the firm you make be able to stand it longer than you could at a more prestigious but potentially less pleasant firm. Just work hard to get a permanent offer and be happy that in a time of turmoil and misery for lawyers, you were one of the lucky ones.

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Re: What to think about V100

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:21 am

Anonymous User wrote:I didn't do as well as I had hoped this OCI cycle and will be spending next summer at a V100 in NYC.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: What to think about V100

Postby mr.hands » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:20 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I didn't do as well as I had hoped this OCI cycle and will be spending next summer at a V100 in NYC.


:lol: :lol: :lol:


Sighhh

If 80% of people with offers go to V20 and you're upset with a good job at a V100, where do you go to school?

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Re: What to think about V100

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:21 am

Danger Zone wrote:Re: the 80% stat: he said 80% of those with offers are V20, not 80% of the whole class. Also OP, please disregard your idiotic douchebag "friends."


also OP seems to be saying that out of the classmates that OP knows 80% have offers in the V20, that could just be self selection. Maybe OP's friends just happen to be in the top 20% especially if OP underperformed her numbers

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Re: What to think about V100

Postby mephistopheles » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:25 am

you should probably renege and drop out. there's always trade school

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Re: What to think about V100

Postby Old Gregg » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:36 am

I didn't do as well as I had hoped this OCI cycle and will be spending next summer at a V100 in NYC.


I would tell you to chill out, but you more likely just turn around and post a thread about how hard it is to "trade up" at 3L OCI. Let me save you that effort and ask you to please, please, use the search feature.

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Re: What to think about V100

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:57 pm

#firstworldproblems

JusticeJackson
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Re: What to think about V100

Postby JusticeJackson » Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:28 pm

.
Last edited by JusticeJackson on Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What to think about V100

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:14 pm

I recently lateraled out of a v100 after 3 years to go in house. A few observations:

1. All but one of my colleagues who lateraled lateralled up. Several to v20s. I had a v10 offer I turned down.

2. Your lateral opportunities are mostly defined by the experience you get. That will be defined by the partners you work for more than the firm.

3. A lot of people make themselves miserable chasing prestige. While YMMV, the average associate is going to work far more at a v20 than a lower v100.

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Re: What to think about V100

Postby Anonymous Associate » Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:46 pm

This...

rad lulz wrote:fuck what your classmates think

lawyers and law students are the worst


and this...

Anonymous User wrote:2. Your lateral opportunities are mostly defined by the experience you get. That will be defined by the partners you work for more than the firm.

3. A lot of people make themselves miserable chasing prestige. While YMMV, the average associate is going to work far more at a v20 than a lower v100.


Echoing others, the rankings can be meaningless, particularly when you get to specialized/arguably mid-sized/regional firms that manage to make the list.

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androstan
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Re: What to think about V100

Postby androstan » Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:38 pm

OP you have terrible "friends."

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Re: What to think about V100

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:51 pm

OP here, thanks for the responses.

For starters, I admit this is firstworldproblems, but we're all allowed to have relative concerns aren't we?

Anonymous User wrote:
Danger Zone wrote:Re: the 80% stat: he said 80% of those with offers are V20, not 80% of the whole class. Also OP, please disregard your idiotic douchebag "friends."


also OP seems to be saying that out of the classmates that OP knows 80% have offers in the V20, that could just be self selection. Maybe OP's friends just happen to be in the top 20% especially if OP underperformed her numbers


this is correct.

JusticeJackson wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: 'anywhere else would have been better'


Did the guy who said this explain? Before I read this part, I thought "what a douchey poster." After reading this, maybe you're headed for the next Howrey, or a place where attorneys hate their lives, or a place with an astronomical no-offer rate. Any idea why the person said this?


I'm not sure if its all a prestige thing or if its something else. But I feel like he would have said something if he thought the firm was going to collapse.

Anonymous User wrote:I recently lateraled out of a v100 after 3 years to go in house. A few observations:

1. All but one of my colleagues who lateraled lateralled up. Several to v20s. I had a v10 offer I turned down.

2. Your lateral opportunities are mostly defined by the experience you get. That will be defined by the partners you work for more than the firm.

3. A lot of people make themselves miserable chasing prestige. While YMMV, the average associate is going to work far more at a v20 than a lower v100.


This is helpful, thanks.

And I'll try and get new friends.




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