Friend wants to transfer - is it worth the money?

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glitched
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Friend wants to transfer - is it worth the money?

Postby glitched » Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:33 am

My friend wants to give up his scholarship at a T20 school to attend a T6 at sticker (say 80k in loans vs. 200k at graduation). I say he's crazy bc if he can make the grades to transfer, he would have the grades to get biglaw (I could be wrong here but that's a different issue). His argument, though, is that if he makes the same biglaw firm with either option, the T6 will be better since it will help with exit/lateral options down the road and it's worth the money now. Since I'm still in law school, I can't really argue against him so I wanted to hear some of the thoughts of attorneys who have experienced the lateral/exit market. Is he crazy or does he have a point? Basically, how long does school prestige last after graduation? Thanks.

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Danger Zone
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Re: Friend wants to transfer - is it worth the money?

Postby Danger Zone » Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:41 am

If you're a 1L: Cart. Horse. End of thread.

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Nova
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Re: Friend wants to transfer - is it worth the money?

Postby Nova » Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:48 am

Danger Zone wrote:If you're a 1L: Cart. Horse. End of thread.

+1

Tell your friend to ace finals and worry about this later

Assuming youll be near the top of the class is not a good look

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glitched
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Re: Friend wants to transfer - is it worth the money?

Postby glitched » Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:56 am

Well that's all already assumed. Our argument has become a hypothetical at this point and we want to know the answer. This isn't a thread about what a 1L should practically be doing and not worrying about. We all know that answer. This is a thread about how much, if at all, prestige lasts beyond your first job.

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glitched
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Re: Friend wants to transfer - is it worth the money?

Postby glitched » Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:04 am

The wording of the question is wrong. Did not mean how much will prestige last but how much will prestige help you in the lateral/exit market after you attain a biglaw job?

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Danger Zone
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Re: Friend wants to transfer - is it worth the money?

Postby Danger Zone » Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:08 am

But it's silly to think about right now because 1) you need good enough grades to get big law and then 2) you actually need to get a summer position in big law (which sometimes even people with top grades don't get) and then 3) you need to get an offer to return to biglaw after your summer (which not everyone gets) or you need to miraculously get biglaw some other way and even then 4) you'll need to stay in biglaw as an associate long enough that you can lateral somewhere (since most places require at least a couple years experience when hiring laterals).

So... ya know, cart, horse, tea leaves, whatever.

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glitched
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Re: Friend wants to transfer - is it worth the money?

Postby glitched » Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:16 am

Danger Zone wrote:But it's silly to think about right now because 1) you need good enough grades to get big law and the, hen 2) you actually need to get a summer position in big law (which sometimes even people with top grades don't get) and then 3) you need to get an offer to return to biglaw after your summer (which not everyone gets) or you need to miraculously get biglaw some other way and even then 4) you'll need to stay in biglaw as an associate long enough that you can lateral somewhere (since most places require at least a couple years experience when hiring laterals).

So... ya know, cart, horse, tea leaves, whatever.


Fine. I'm a 3L. My friend won't think about it anymore since it's so silly and such a waste of time. I on the other hand have too much time and can entertain silly thoughts and want to know the answer out of curiosity.

Pokemon
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Re: Friend wants to transfer - is it worth the money?

Postby Pokemon » Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:19 am

Any other consideration such as market of the T6 v. the T20?

PS: if you are a 3L, shouldn't you tell your friend to shut up and pray that s/he is above median?

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glitched
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Re: Friend wants to transfer - is it worth the money?

Postby glitched » Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:23 am

Pokemon wrote:Any other consideration such as market of the T6 v. the T20?

PS: if you are a 3L, shouldn't you tell your friend to shut up and pray that s/he is above median?


I think he and every other 1L knows that already. We just got to talking and it led to this.

The argument assumes the student will end up at the identical firm upon graduation regardless of market.

run26.2
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Re: Friend wants to transfer - is it worth the money?

Postby run26.2 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:35 am

The answer is it doesn't matter much in most situations. I have looked up several in-house attorneys I have corresponded with in my career at various companies (all among America's largest companies) and many (if not most) went to schools that were T2 or lower.

The exceptions would be if you wanted to move to government. Even lateraling to a biglaw firm, they are probably going to look more at your experiences than your school. Some will look at your transcript, but I think they're looking more for grades.

I think the better question is whether the firm he can get out of a T6 would provide better exit options down the road (i.e., from the network and client relationships developed).

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Clearly
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Re: Friend wants to transfer - is it worth the money?

Postby Clearly » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:43 am

run26.2 wrote:The answer is it doesn't matter much in most situations. I have looked up several in-house attorneys I have corresponded with in my career at various companies (all among America's largest companies) and many (if not most) went to schools that were T2 or lower.

The exceptions would be if you wanted to move to government. Even lateraling to a biglaw firm, they are probably going to look more at your experiences than your school. Some will look at your transcript, but I think they're looking more for grades.

I think the better question is whether the firm he can get out of a T6 would provide better exit options down the road (i.e., from the network and client relationships developed).


...And these in house attorneys, they got hired post 2008?

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guano
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Re: Friend wants to transfer - is it worth the money?

Postby guano » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:37 am

glitched wrote:
Danger Zone wrote:But it's silly to think about right now because 1) you need good enough grades to get big law and the, hen 2) you actually need to get a summer position in big law (which sometimes even people with top grades don't get) and then 3) you need to get an offer to return to biglaw after your summer (which not everyone gets) or you need to miraculously get biglaw some other way and even then 4) you'll need to stay in biglaw as an associate long enough that you can lateral somewhere (since most places require at least a couple years experience when hiring laterals).

So... ya know, cart, horse, tea leaves, whatever.


Fine. I'm a 3L. My friend won't think about it anymore since it's so silly and such a waste of time. I on the other hand have too much time and can entertain silly thoughts and want to know the answer out of curiosity.

You're probably right, but maybe not. There are top 10% law review kids at T20s not getting biglaw. Then again, being a transfer student isn't a guarantee either

Void
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Re: Friend wants to transfer - is it worth the money?

Postby Void » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:13 am

I feel like this is one of those questions that assumes there is a predictable pattern to legal employment, just like there is for law school admissions. Outside of "if you want clerkship you must have law review" or "if you want firm X you must have at least a 3.XX" there's really no way to tell. There is no way to settle this argument because you're arguing about the subjective opinion of a hypothetical employer.

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northwood
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Re: Friend wants to transfer - is it worth the money?

Postby northwood » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:18 am

Where is the location of the T20 and where your friend wants to work? If it is in a similar market, then stay. If not, then possibly. However, if your friend does very well to transfer, theres a chance the school will increase his scholarship to entice him to stay. Personally, id take the money and stay because while BigLaw is not guaranteed, having to repay your loans is. If biglaw doesn't work, does he want that extra 120K hanging over his head?

run26.2
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Re: Friend wants to transfer - is it worth the money?

Postby run26.2 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:00 am

Clearly wrote:
run26.2 wrote:The answer is it doesn't matter much in most situations. I have looked up several in-house attorneys I have corresponded with in my career at various companies (all among America's largest companies) and many (if not most) went to schools that were T2 or lower.

The exceptions would be if you wanted to move to government. Even lateraling to a biglaw firm, they are probably going to look more at your experiences than your school. Some will look at your transcript, but I think they're looking more for grades.

I think the better question is whether the firm he can get out of a T6 would provide better exit options down the road (i.e., from the network and client relationships developed).


...And these in house attorneys, they got hired post 2008?

The question was about prestige. You think private employers suddenly got sensitive to the school that the attorney went to because if the financial crisis? No. Employers care about your skills more than your school.

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guano
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Re: Friend wants to transfer - is it worth the money?

Postby guano » Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:24 am

run26.2 wrote:
Clearly wrote:
run26.2 wrote:The answer is it doesn't matter much in most situations. I have looked up several in-house attorneys I have corresponded with in my career at various companies (all among America's largest companies) and many (if not most) went to schools that were T2 or lower.

The exceptions would be if you wanted to move to government. Even lateraling to a biglaw firm, they are probably going to look more at your experiences than your school. Some will look at your transcript, but I think they're looking more for grades.

I think the better question is whether the firm he can get out of a T6 would provide better exit options down the road (i.e., from the network and client relationships developed).


...And these in house attorneys, they got hired post 2008?

The question was about prestige. You think private employers suddenly got sensitive to the school that the attorney went to because if the financial crisis? No. Employers care about your skills more than your school.

But what if you haven't got any skills yet?

run26.2
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Re: Friend wants to transfer - is it worth the money?

Postby run26.2 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:39 am

guano wrote:But what if you haven't got any skills yet?

The lateral/exit opportunities are fewer. There are exceptions in the lateral market for associates with the right skill set. But by and large, your ability to lateral or move in house goes up as you get more senior. Regarding lateraling, this ability goes back down as you get up into years 6-8. It does not reverse course for going in-house.

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anon919
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Re: Friend wants to transfer - is it worth the money?

Postby anon919 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:07 pm

I would keep the scholly if I was in your friend's shoes. Here's my situation:

Took a T2 (full scholly) over T15 (sticker).

After first year - racked up LR, Moot Court, other accolades. Got a 1L SA @ V60. Went back to same V60 for 2L SA. Just jumped ship to V15 via 3L hiring.

Will graduate with $75k debt due to living comfortably (NYC housing costs etc). I felt the gamble was absolutely worth it.

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brotherdarkness
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Re: Friend wants to transfer - is it worth the money?

Postby brotherdarkness » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:17 pm

I transferred for three reasons: (1) market/region; (2) original school dropped from T25 to, well, a lot lower; (3) my parents are footing the bill.

Transferring to gain access to a particular market worked for me, but it wasn't easy. Even though I transferred back to my "home" market, a lot of firms questioned if I really wanted to be here considering I attended a school thousands of miles away for my 1L year.

I chose to abandon ship after the fall in the rankings because, though I didn't feel my education would suffer, this is a prestige-centric industry and my degree for follow me for my entire life. And, considering that my parents are footing the bill, the scholarship incentive wasn't as important to me.

Transferring was probably the right decision, but there are a number of drawbacks. I feel like a 1L again because I have no sense of the "competition." The friends I made during my 1L year aren't with me and, though there's no anti-transfer sentiments (that I can tell), by no means do I feel as though I'm a part of this student body in the same way as I did at my old school. I had formed a few really good relationships with professors at my old school which went by the wayside when I decided to transfer.

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bk1
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Re: Friend wants to transfer - is it worth the money?

Postby bk1 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:23 pm

Tell your friend to come back when he/she has those actual option.




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