Career Services - Don't go for a 1L SA... True?

[fundamentallybroken]

Just... every time I remember this thread, my spleen hurts. You may need to name and shame this person/school for the good of students who might be affected. This is like, a public health concern on a greater scale than swine flu.

This career counselor is literally the cancer that is killing the legal profession.

I had similar advice my 1L year from Career Services - don't try too hard for a 1L SA, maybe you'd like to hear about an exciting summer in a judicial externship? Load of shit - I got a 1L SA, turned it into a 2L SA, and turned that into an offer.

Career Services steers everyone at my school towards judicial externships 1L, and treats most everyone as just a number who will hopefully be employed after school. Of course, once you ignore them and actually get a 1L SA, and show yourself to be employable, Career Services is your best friend ever.

[Anonymous User]

Just... every time I remember this thread, my spleen hurts. You may need to name and shame this person/school for the good of students who might be affected. This is like, a public health concern on a greater scale than swine flu.

This career counselor is literally the cancer that is killing the legal profession.

I had similar advice my 1L year from Career Services - don't try too hard for a 1L SA, maybe you'd like to hear about an exciting summer in a judicial externship? Load of shit - I got a 1L SA, turned it into a 2L SA, and turned that into an offer.

Career Services steers everyone at my school towards judicial externships 1L, and treats most everyone as just a number who will hopefully be employed after school. Of course, once you ignore them and actually get a 1L SA, and show yourself to be employable, Career Services is your best friend ever.

I absolutely agree with the Career Services being your "best friend" comment. Since I accepted a SA in Big Law for my 2L summer, everyone is super nice. Just be mindful of how to utilize the people/opportunities around you because they will use you in a second.

[manofjustice]

Just... every time I remember this thread, my spleen hurts. You may need to name and shame this person/school for the good of students who might be affected. This is like, a public health concern on a greater scale than swine flu.

This career counselor is literally the cancer that is killing the legal profession.

I had similar advice my 1L year from Career Services - don't try too hard for a 1L SA, maybe you'd like to hear about an exciting summer in a judicial externship? Load of shit - I got a 1L SA, turned it into a 2L SA, and turned that into an offer.

Career Services steers everyone at my school towards judicial externships 1L, and treats most everyone as just a number who will hopefully be employed after school. Of course, once you ignore them and actually get a 1L SA, and show yourself to be employable, Career Services is your best friend ever.

I absolutely agree with the Career Services being your "best friend" comment. Since I accepted a SA in Big Law for my 2L summer, everyone is super nice. Just be mindful of how to utilize the people/opportunities around you because they will use you in a second.

Yeeeeppp...Soulless.

[Anonymous User]

So I'm a 1L and spoke with career services recently.. At a T14 that is consistently at or near the top of BigLaw placement for what it's worth

Since this past summer I've been planning on gunning for a 1L SA (mass-mailing early in December, etc etc etc...) And then, as is very likely, if no leads turn up I would turn to externing for a judge, govt, or whatever.

When I told this to my Career Services they said they really strongly discourage you from doing 1L SAs because it's taking a huge risk of striking out for a 2L SA. She said it's a lot safer to just do the judge externship or govt or really anything. Her rationale is that getting no offered after a 1L SA is a deathblow to getting a 2L SA, and thus striking out. I guess she was operating on the assumption that a no offer from a 1L SA is more likely than after a 2L SA, which I guess seems reasonable since it seems like a lot of firms don't really expect to offer all their 1Ls. IIRC WLRK (and I'm sure plenty of others) do not make return offers to their 1Ls, are other firms really going to hold this against you if getting a return offer is the exception rather than the rule at your specific firm?

Is there truth to this? Is it better to NOT go for the 1L SA at all and just rely on getting the 2L SA? I definitely don't want to end up striking out, but the prospect of graduating debt free with that SA money would be awesome.

3L here, with a 1L SA and a 2L SA. Only 1 or maybe 2 at most asked me whether I got a 1L offer during OCI.

[Anonymous User]

So I'm a 1L and spoke with career services recently.. At a T14 that is consistently at or near the top of BigLaw placement for what it's worth

Since this past summer I've been planning on gunning for a 1L SA (mass-mailing early in December, etc etc etc...) And then, as is very likely, if no leads turn up I would turn to externing for a judge, govt, or whatever.

When I told this to my Career Services they said they really strongly discourage you from doing 1L SAs because it's taking a huge risk of striking out for a 2L SA. She said it's a lot safer to just do the judge externship or govt or really anything. Her rationale is that getting no offered after a 1L SA is a deathblow to getting a 2L SA, and thus striking out. I guess she was operating on the assumption that a no offer from a 1L SA is more likely than after a 2L SA, which I guess seems reasonable since it seems like a lot of firms don't really expect to offer all their 1Ls. IIRC WLRK (and I'm sure plenty of others) do not make return offers to their 1Ls, are other firms really going to hold this against you if getting a return offer is the exception rather than the rule at your specific firm?

Is there truth to this? Is it better to NOT go for the 1L SA at all and just rely on getting the 2L SA? I definitely don't want to end up striking out, but the prospect of graduating debt free with that SA money would be awesome.

3L here, with a 1L SA and a 2L SA. Only 1 or maybe 2 at most asked me whether I got a 1L offer during OCI.

Same anon who asked about whether it was a dealbreaker.

What were your observations when they asked whether you received a return offer? Did it come off as a dealbreaker on your candidacy as a 2L SA?

[Anonymous User]

^ good questions from this anon above me; shares my concerns.

But thanks for all the advice everyone. Sounds like I'm gonna ignore this adviser and stick to my original plan. It was just a little weird hearing this from this school..maybe I was just a naive little special snowflake 0L but I figured the schools that have been placing [very] well had something to do with their CSOs, but maybe not I suppose..

For the record I'd rather not name and shame (yet) but it is one of the schools that TLS generally gives the thumbs-up for ITE

Just... every time I remember this thread, my spleen hurts. You may need to name and shame this person/school for the good of students who might be affected. This is like, a public health concern on a greater scale than swine flu.

This career counselor is literally the cancer that is killing the legal profession.

this made me lol though. Maybe if I end up a little more jaded I will.

[dj_roomba]

^ good questions from this anon above me; shares my concerns.

But thanks for all the advice everyone. Sounds like I'm gonna ignore this adviser and stick to my original plan. It was just a little weird hearing this from this school..maybe I was just a naive little special snowflake 0L but I figured the schools that have been placing [very] well had something to do with their CSOs, but maybe not I suppose..

For the record I'd rather not name and shame (yet) but it is one of the schools that TLS generally gives the thumbs-up for ITE

Hehe There's only one school in the T14 that TLS gives a thumbs up ITE.
Or so I think

[Nelson]

You aren't going to get an SA so this is kind of pointless, but your grades 1L year will completely and totally overwhelm any effect any 1L summer job could possibly have. I doubt firms even care about 1L summer jobs when comparing between two otherwise identical candidates. They'd rather have the good interviewer since the OCI process is entirely based on your potential as an associate at their firm and previous legal work has no impact at all.

Yes, BigLaw gives signing bonuses to some people who clerk for CoA and most who clerk for SCOTUS. Yes, few people have the option to clerk for a CoA judge, but having interned for a DC judge might help--no, not actually in getting the job, but in getting OP to want the job. And finally, no--you cannot fall in love with the law (yes that has a meaning; that you don't know what it is belies your point) in BigLaw as an SA or a first- or second- or hell, any-year associate. Or hell, maybe even as a partner.

This is just silly on so many levels. Clerking isn't some magical fantasy job that will totally change your attitude towards legal work and plenty of people enjoy working at firms.

[TooOld4This]

While I think the CSO advice is overblown, I don't think it is entirely without merit. With the glut of seemingly qualified candidates for a limited number of slots, it is exceedingly easy to screen based on past performance. Some firms are well known for having 1L-only programs. If you go to one of them, you are unlikely to be asked about an offer, and if you are, all you need to say is that they don't make offers from their 1L program. If the firm you work for does make offers to 1Ls and you didn't get one, that could be bad news for your 2L job hunt. If your grades are great and you interview well, it may never come up. However, if there is anything middling about your profile (or if you hit a firm that is big on reference/offer checking), a no offer from your 1L summer job can move you into the "no" pile.

Don't not go for 1L SAs, but if you happen to get one, work like it is a 2L position and don't assume you will get a pass if you are no offered.

[OfThriceandTen]

OP, I agree with the consensus that you should pursue a 1L SA because the effect of a no offer is negligible compared to the benefits of firm experience and having a paid gig. However, I would advise to make sure you have a plan in place so that you don't spend all of December and January firm chasing. I applied on December 1 to a bunch of firms and scheduled 3 CBs in January. I thought I'd cover my other bases by doing a PI career fair in early February (I wanted PI if I didn't get a firm job, and a judicial externship was really low on my radar). I ended up striking out at the firms and at the PI fair. I very luckily got hired on with a clinic at my school in March; otherwise I would have had a hell of a time getting a judge even in my tiny hometown to look twice at my resume. It caused way more stress than it needed to. So my advice would be to get all of your 1L SA apps ready now, and any apps for judges to send on Dec. 1. Then spend Christmas break applying to PI gigs if you want them. Don't go all in on finding a 1L SA and end up shooting yourself in the foot for other jobs.

[Anonymous User]

While I think the CSO advice is overblown, I don't think it is entirely without merit. With the glut of seemingly qualified candidates for a limited number of slots, it is exceedingly easy to screen based on past performance. Some firms are well known for having 1L-only programs. If you go to one of them, you are unlikely to be asked about an offer, and if you are, all you need to say is that they don't make offers from their 1L program. If the firm you work for does make offers to 1Ls and you didn't get one, that could be bad news for your 2L job hunt. If your grades are great and you interview well, it may never come up. However, if there is anything middling about your profile (or if you hit a firm that is big on reference/offer checking), a no offer from your 1L summer job can move you into the "no" pile.

Don't not go for 1L SAs, but if you happen to get one, work like it is a 2L position and don't assume you will get a pass if you are no offered.

I know some firms have strict policies on who from the firm can even talk to people who call about references.

So, even if the 2L firm were to call the 1L firm, if they were to ask, "Did [x] person receive a return offer?" I'm not even sure the 1L firm can confirm or deny it. Someone please correct me if I'm mistaken.

[Anonymous User]

No offered. No one asked or cared. Now at a V20

Ditto this except I'm at a V50 now.

[shock259]

If you think Career Services may have given you bad advice, they almost certainly did. If you think they gave you good advice, it is also probably bad advice.

[Anonymous User]

No offered as a 1L and working at a V20 this summer. Only one interviewer asked if I got an offer, the rest didn't care.

For the interviewer that asked, did you get a sense that it was some sort of deal-breaker?

No, I was pretty sure I had already blown the CB for that firm (mixed up a partner's name). A couple of screeners at OCI asked, but didn't seem to lend it much weight - one of them basically shrugged it off, in a "1L jobs, whaddya gonna do" kind of way.

[Anonymous User]

So I'm a 1L and spoke with career services recently.. At a T14 that is consistently at or near the top of BigLaw placement for what it's worth

Since this past summer I've been planning on gunning for a 1L SA (mass-mailing early in December, etc etc etc...) And then, as is very likely, if no leads turn up I would turn to externing for a judge, govt, or whatever.

When I told this to my Career Services they said they really strongly discourage you from doing 1L SAs because it's taking a huge risk of striking out for a 2L SA. She said it's a lot safer to just do the judge externship or govt or really anything. Her rationale is that getting no offered after a 1L SA is a deathblow to getting a 2L SA, and thus striking out. I guess she was operating on the assumption that a no offer from a 1L SA is more likely than after a 2L SA, which I guess seems reasonable since it seems like a lot of firms don't really expect to offer all their 1Ls. IIRC WLRK (and I'm sure plenty of others) do not make return offers to their 1Ls, are other firms really going to hold this against you if getting a return offer is the exception rather than the rule at your specific firm?

Is there truth to this? Is it better to NOT go for the 1L SA at all and just rely on getting the 2L SA? I definitely don't want to end up striking out, but the prospect of graduating debt free with that SA money would be awesome.

3L here, with a 1L SA and a 2L SA. Only 1 or maybe 2 at most asked me whether I got a 1L offer during OCI.

3L as well, I don't think any firm asked me if I got an offer during OCI.

[Anonymous User]

No offered as a 1L and working at a V20 this summer. Only one interviewer asked if I got an offer, the rest didn't care.

For the interviewer that asked, did you get a sense that it was some sort of deal-breaker?

No, I was pretty sure I had already blown the CB for that firm (mixed up a partner's name). A couple of screeners at OCI asked, but didn't seem to lend it much weight - one of them basically shrugged it off, in a "1L jobs, whaddya gonna do" kind of way.

Of the screeners that asked, how many of those went on to become CBs?

[Anonymous User]

1l sa, no offered, grades dropped second semester.

didn't matter, got v20 for 2l and they asked me if i was offered. it's all in how you spin it. i think 3 of my cbs asked in the screener stage.

yes, that career services advice is terrible. working for free blows, too

[Anonymous User]

1l sa, no offered, grades dropped second semester.

didn't matter, got v20 for 2l and they asked me if i was offered. it's all in how you spin it. i think 3 of my cbs asked in the screener stage.

yes, that career services advice is terrible. working for free blows, too

curious how you could spin getting no offered... talk about "fit" issues or something?

[Anonymous User]

No offered as a 1L and working at a V20 this summer. Only one interviewer asked if I got an offer, the rest didn't care.

For the interviewer that asked, did you get a sense that it was some sort of deal-breaker?

No, I was pretty sure I had already blown the CB for that firm (mixed up a partner's name). A couple of screeners at OCI asked, but didn't seem to lend it much weight - one of them basically shrugged it off, in a "1L jobs, whaddya gonna do" kind of way.

Of the screeners that asked, how many of those went on to become CBs?

Of the two screeners who asked, the one who shrugged it off gave me a callback. I didn't have a great interview with the second firm, so I can't say whether the admission of a no-offer contributed.

[Anonymous User]

1l sa, no offered, grades dropped second semester.

didn't matter, got v20 for 2l and they asked me if i was offered. it's all in how you spin it. i think 3 of my cbs asked in the screener stage.

yes, that career services advice is terrible. working for free blows, too

curious how you could spin getting no offered... talk about "fit" issues or something?

things worked out for me due to firm specifics, but i said no and immediately grabbed the reins of the conversation and continued into "but going in i didn't really expect to anyways [for these reasons]."

[Anonymous User]

1l sa, no offered, grades dropped second semester.

didn't matter, got v20 for 2l and they asked me if i was offered. it's all in how you spin it. i think 3 of my cbs asked in the screener stage.

yes, that career services advice is terrible. working for free blows, too

curious how you could spin getting no offered... talk about "fit" issues or something?

things worked out for me due to firm specifics, but i said no and immediately grabbed the reins of the conversation and continued into "but going in i didn't really expect to anyways [for these reasons]."

What are firms allowed to say about past employees? I mean, yeah assume you're honest and say you didn't get a return offer. And then you give reasons. Can the new employer call the old employer and ask them about the specifics? Or is it more typical that the new employer will call the old employer and just confirm that the person worked there, and was pleasant to work with.

[Anonymous User]

no clue if they interacted with my former employer, but the key is to avoid the "why" question and fill that time with something that isn't a lie but sidesteps any potentially negative specifics while being confident and assertive.

[kalvano]

1l sa, no offered, grades dropped second semester.

didn't matter, got v20 for 2l and they asked me if i was offered. it's all in how you spin it. i think 3 of my cbs asked in the screener stage.

yes, that career services advice is terrible. working for free blows, too

curious how you could spin getting no offered... talk about "fit" issues or something?

things worked out for me due to firm specifics, but i said no and immediately grabbed the reins of the conversation and continued into "but going in i didn't really expect to anyways [for these reasons]."

What are firms allowed to say about past employees? I mean, yeah assume you're honest and say you didn't get a return offer. And then you give reasons. Can the new employer call the old employer and ask them about the specifics? Or is it more typical that the new employer will call the old employer and just confirm that the person worked there, and was pleasant to work with.

Most places will do nothing more than confirm dates of employment, and possibly whether the split was voluntary or involuntary.

[Anonymous User]

What are firms allowed to say about past employees? I mean, yeah assume you're honest and say you didn't get a return offer. And then you give reasons. Can the new employer call the old employer and ask them about the specifics? Or is it more typical that the new employer will call the old employer and just confirm that the person worked there, and was pleasant to work with.[/quote]

Most places will do nothing more than confirm dates of employment, and possibly whether the split was voluntary or involuntary.[/quote]

So basically it'll generally be:

Person X worked here from June-August.

Split was involuntary.

Though, can the old employer tell the new employer why the split was involuntary? Like, financial issues, performance issues, etc.

[Anonymous User]

Look, this is just a ridiculous conversation. If you get no-offered as a 1L, its likely that you don't belong in Biglaw and would get no offered as a 2L anyways. Or burn out as a second year associate. My 1L biglaw summer was the easiest job I've ever had. If you actually get no-offered due to economic reasons and not your own incompetence, then you should be able to explain that at OCI. Firms understand.

For what its worth, I summered at a V50, got an offer, was asked about it a couple of screeners, and will be spending my 2L summer at a V5. The V5 never asked whether I was offered.