Career Services - Don't go for a 1L SA... True?

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Career Services - Don't go for a 1L SA... True?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:14 pm

So I'm a 1L and spoke with career services recently.. At a T14 that is consistently at or near the top of BigLaw placement for what it's worth

Since this past summer I've been planning on gunning for a 1L SA (mass-mailing early in December, etc etc etc...) And then, as is very likely, if no leads turn up I would turn to externing for a judge, govt, or whatever.

When I told this to my Career Services they said they really strongly discourage you from doing 1L SAs because it's taking a huge risk of striking out for a 2L SA. She said it's a lot safer to just do the judge externship or govt or really anything. Her rationale is that getting no offered after a 1L SA is a deathblow to getting a 2L SA, and thus striking out. I guess she was operating on the assumption that a no offer from a 1L SA is more likely than after a 2L SA, which I guess seems reasonable since it seems like a lot of firms don't really expect to offer all their 1Ls. IIRC WLRK (and I'm sure plenty of others) do not make return offers to their 1Ls, are other firms really going to hold this against you if getting a return offer is the exception rather than the rule at your specific firm?

Is there truth to this? Is it better to NOT go for the 1L SA at all and just rely on getting the 2L SA? I definitely don't want to end up striking out, but the prospect of graduating debt free with that SA money would be awesome.

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Re: Career Services - Don't go for a 1L SA... True?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So I'm a 1L and spoke with career services recently.. At a T14 that is consistently at or near the top of BigLaw placement for what it's worth

Since this past summer I've been planning on gunning for a 1L SA (mass-mailing early in December, etc etc etc...) And then, as is very likely, if no leads turn up I would turn to externing for a judge, govt, or whatever.

When I told this to my Career Services they said they really strongly discourage you from doing 1L SAs because it's taking a huge risk of striking out for a 2L SA. She said it's a lot safer to just do the judge externship or govt or really anything. Her rationale is that getting no offered after a 1L SA is a deathblow to getting a 2L SA, and thus striking out. I guess she was operating on the assumption that a no offer from a 1L SA is more likely than after a 2L SA, which I guess seems reasonable since it seems like a lot of firms don't really expect to offer all their 1Ls. IIRC WLRK (and I'm sure plenty of others) do not make return offers to their 1Ls, are other firms really going to hold this against you if getting a return offer is the exception rather than the rule at your specific firm?

Is there truth to this? Is it better to NOT go for the 1L SA at all and just rely on getting the 2L SA? I definitely don't want to end up striking out, but the prospect of graduating debt free with that SA money would be awesome.


Well, as a no-offered 1L SA, I can tell you it's been hard to get a 2L SA.

I have yet to lock anything up for my 2L SA.

But, at least from what I understand, calling it a "death blow" is a pretty over-dramatic.

Trust me, I've sought plenty of advice from this board, and simply put, it's a blow, but is fully recoverable. At least that's what I've been telling myself.

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Re: Career Services - Don't go for a 1L SA... True?

Postby bdubs » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I guess she was operating on the assumption that a no offer from a 1L SA is more likely than after a 2L SA, which I guess seems reasonable since it seems like a lot of firms don't really expect to offer all their 1Ls. IIRC WLRK (and I'm sure plenty of others) do not make return offers to their 1Ls, are other firms really going to hold this against you if getting a return offer is the exception rather than the rule at your specific firm?

Is there truth to this? Is it better to NOT go for the 1L SA at all and just rely on getting the 2L SA? I definitely don't want to end up striking out, but the prospect of graduating debt free with that SA money would be awesome.


The risk she is referring to is pretty overblown. I only had one firm out of 20 ask about whether my 1L SA made me an offer. I can see it being an issue if you were at a relatively strong firm for 1L and then begin targeting less selective firms during OCI. Those who tried to move up the prestige ranks usually were not asked anything, in my experience.

As for a place like WLRK or similar that doesn't offer 1Ls, those are almost entirely diversity programs. Firms know this and I don't think that those people have a problem talking about it at 2L OCI.

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Re: Career Services - Don't go for a 1L SA... True?

Postby dj_roomba » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:35 pm

bdubs wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I guess she was operating on the assumption that a no offer from a 1L SA is more likely than after a 2L SA, which I guess seems reasonable since it seems like a lot of firms don't really expect to offer all their 1Ls. IIRC WLRK (and I'm sure plenty of others) do not make return offers to their 1Ls, are other firms really going to hold this against you if getting a return offer is the exception rather than the rule at your specific firm?

Is there truth to this? Is it better to NOT go for the 1L SA at all and just rely on getting the 2L SA? I definitely don't want to end up striking out, but the prospect of graduating debt free with that SA money would be awesome.


The risk she is referring to is pretty overblown. I only had one firm out of 20 ask about whether my 1L SA made me an offer. I can see it being an issue if you were at a relatively strong firm for 1L and then begin targeting less selective firms during OCI. Those who tried to move up the prestige ranks usually were not asked anything, in my experience.

As for a place like WLRK or similar that doesn't offer 1Ls, those are almost entirely diversity programs. Firms know this and I don't think that those people have a problem talking about it at 2L OCI.


Can they still find out if you got offered, even if they don't ask?
It seems like a recurring theme on this board for 1L SAs to strike out 2L. I wouldn't be surprised if the "stigma" is a huge factor in this.

Also, how common is a 1L offer anyway?


I would love to hear others chime in who also had no offer 1L SAs

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Re: Career Services - Don't go for a 1L SA... True?

Postby dj_roomba » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So I'm a 1L and spoke with career services recently.. At a T14 that is consistently at or near the top of BigLaw placement for what it's worth

Since this past summer I've been planning on gunning for a 1L SA (mass-mailing early in December, etc etc etc...) And then, as is very likely, if no leads turn up I would turn to externing for a judge, govt, or whatever.

When I told this to my Career Services they said they really strongly discourage you from doing 1L SAs because it's taking a huge risk of striking out for a 2L SA. She said it's a lot safer to just do the judge externship or govt or really anything. Her rationale is that getting no offered after a 1L SA is a deathblow to getting a 2L SA, and thus striking out. I guess she was operating on the assumption that a no offer from a 1L SA is more likely than after a 2L SA, which I guess seems reasonable since it seems like a lot of firms don't really expect to offer all their 1Ls. IIRC WLRK (and I'm sure plenty of others) do not make return offers to their 1Ls, are other firms really going to hold this against you if getting a return offer is the exception rather than the rule at your specific firm?

Is there truth to this? Is it better to NOT go for the 1L SA at all and just rely on getting the 2L SA? I definitely don't want to end up striking out, but the prospect of graduating debt free with that SA money would be awesome.


Well, as a no-offered 1L SA, I can tell you it's been hard to get a 2L SA.

I have yet to lock anything up for my 2L SA.

But, at least from what I understand, calling it a "death blow" is a pretty over-dramatic.

Trust me, I've sought plenty of advice from this board, and simply put, it's a blow, but is fully recoverable. At least that's what I've been telling myself.


Ouch. Are there any other reasons besides the no-offer that you think might have hurt you? Did your grades drop a little, or did you land the SA from a diversity program and didn't have really high grades in the first place? How many firms actually asked?

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Re: Career Services - Don't go for a 1L SA... True?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:41 pm

No offered. No one asked or cared. Now at a V20

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hephaestus
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Re: Career Services - Don't go for a 1L SA... True?

Postby hephaestus » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:43 pm

Apply anyway but it's unlikely you'll face this dilemma unless you're eligible for a diversity program, from Texas or another market where they are still common. FWIW, I did not know if I got an offer or not during oci (1L firm didn't make them until 6 weeks after the end of the summer), and it didn't seem to hurt me at all. I wouldn't pay much attention to most advice from career services.

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Re: Career Services - Don't go for a 1L SA... True?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:44 pm

dj_roomba wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So I'm a 1L and spoke with career services recently.. At a T14 that is consistently at or near the top of BigLaw placement for what it's worth

Since this past summer I've been planning on gunning for a 1L SA (mass-mailing early in December, etc etc etc...) And then, as is very likely, if no leads turn up I would turn to externing for a judge, govt, or whatever.

When I told this to my Career Services they said they really strongly discourage you from doing 1L SAs because it's taking a huge risk of striking out for a 2L SA. She said it's a lot safer to just do the judge externship or govt or really anything. Her rationale is that getting no offered after a 1L SA is a deathblow to getting a 2L SA, and thus striking out. I guess she was operating on the assumption that a no offer from a 1L SA is more likely than after a 2L SA, which I guess seems reasonable since it seems like a lot of firms don't really expect to offer all their 1Ls. IIRC WLRK (and I'm sure plenty of others) do not make return offers to their 1Ls, are other firms really going to hold this against you if getting a return offer is the exception rather than the rule at your specific firm?

Is there truth to this? Is it better to NOT go for the 1L SA at all and just rely on getting the 2L SA? I definitely don't want to end up striking out, but the prospect of graduating debt free with that SA money would be awesome.


Well, as a no-offered 1L SA, I can tell you it's been hard to get a 2L SA.

I have yet to lock anything up for my 2L SA.

But, at least from what I understand, calling it a "death blow" is a pretty over-dramatic.

Trust me, I've sought plenty of advice from this board, and simply put, it's a blow, but is fully recoverable. At least that's what I've been telling myself.


Ouch. Are there any other reasons besides the no-offer that you think might have hurt you? Did your grades drop a little, or did you land the SA from a diversity program and didn't have really high grades in the first place? How many firms actually asked?


So far only one has asked.

And yes, my grades did drop a bit--I slipped out of the top quartile.

I thought that even though I was outside the top quartile, my firm-experience would be a plus. But my fear is that because of my 1L SA that draws trepidation in potential 2L employers.

I'll admit that I made some rookie mistakes during my 1L SA that I would not make as a 2L SA.

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Re: Career Services - Don't go for a 1L SA... True?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
dj_roomba wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So I'm a 1L and spoke with career services recently.. At a T14 that is consistently at or near the top of BigLaw placement for what it's worth

Since this past summer I've been planning on gunning for a 1L SA (mass-mailing early in December, etc etc etc...) And then, as is very likely, if no leads turn up I would turn to externing for a judge, govt, or whatever.

When I told this to my Career Services they said they really strongly discourage you from doing 1L SAs because it's taking a huge risk of striking out for a 2L SA. She said it's a lot safer to just do the judge externship or govt or really anything. Her rationale is that getting no offered after a 1L SA is a deathblow to getting a 2L SA, and thus striking out. I guess she was operating on the assumption that a no offer from a 1L SA is more likely than after a 2L SA, which I guess seems reasonable since it seems like a lot of firms don't really expect to offer all their 1Ls. IIRC WLRK (and I'm sure plenty of others) do not make return offers to their 1Ls, are other firms really going to hold this against you if getting a return offer is the exception rather than the rule at your specific firm?

Is there truth to this? Is it better to NOT go for the 1L SA at all and just rely on getting the 2L SA? I definitely don't want to end up striking out, but the prospect of graduating debt free with that SA money would be awesome.


Well, as a no-offered 1L SA, I can tell you it's been hard to get a 2L SA.

I have yet to lock anything up for my 2L SA.

But, at least from what I understand, calling it a "death blow" is a pretty over-dramatic.

Trust me, I've sought plenty of advice from this board, and simply put, it's a blow, but is fully recoverable. At least that's what I've been telling myself.


Ouch. Are there any other reasons besides the no-offer that you think might have hurt you? Did your grades drop a little, or did you land the SA from a diversity program and didn't have really high grades in the first place? How many firms actually asked?


So far only one has asked.

And yes, my grades did drop a bit--I slipped out of the top quartile.

I thought that even though I was outside the top quartile, my firm-experience would be a plus. But my fear is that because of my 1L SA that draws trepidation in potential 2L employers.

I'll admit that I made some rookie mistakes during my 1L SA that I would not make as a 2L SA.


Same anon, as I am going through this process more and more, I am slowly realizing that it's the drop in grades that may be hurting me more so than the 1L SA. Because if I was top 25% still, I'd probably get a few more bites.

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Re: Career Services - Don't go for a 1L SA... True?

Postby thesealocust » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:52 pm

Your career services person is a moron. This advice is so bad it causes me physical pain.

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Re: Career Services - Don't go for a 1L SA... True?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:55 pm

thesealocust wrote:Your career services person is a moron. This advice is so bad it causes me physical pain.


One time I met with my career counselor for a "check in" meeting hoping to get some advice on how to expand my job-search.

She spent 25 minutes showing me how to properly address an email, and the "preferred" signature block. She also reminded me to make sure there were no typos in the email body.

/sigh

#wasteoftime

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Re: Career Services - Don't go for a 1L SA... True?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:07 pm

One of my good friends got no offered from his 1L SA because the firm never invites 1Ls to return and got something like 17 CBs and 100% offers amongst the firms he actually did the CBs with. This person has a lot of things going for them, but just wanted to give another anecdote to the pile that says it isn't a death sentence (from a school in the range you are describing at least).

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Re: Career Services - Don't go for a 1L SA... True?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:11 pm

To add on, I found it helped a lot in interviews. Could credibly talk about what kind of work I wanted to do, at least relative to a lot of my peers.

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Re: Career Services - Don't go for a 1L SA... True?

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:15 pm

I had a 1L big law SA (top of class at T40). It was hard to get, but great experience and $. I got a return offer and I think that and the experience helped with 2L OCI. I say absolutely go for it, but failing to get a 1L SA means nothing in terms of how 2L OCI will go, and obviously do not do anything to pursue a 1L SA if it will affect your grades.

Also, I agree with people above saying career services' advice is horrible. A friend of mine got no-offered from a 1L SA and he has multiple offers for 2L.
Last edited by Hutz_and_Goodman on Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Career Services - Don't go for a 1L SA... True?

Postby bk1 » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:15 pm

thesealocust wrote:Your career services person is a moron. This advice is so bad it causes me physical pain.

+1

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Re: Career Services - Don't go for a 1L SA... True?

Postby prezidentv8 » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:21 pm

bk1 wrote:
thesealocust wrote:Your career services person is a moron. This advice is so bad it causes me physical pain.

+1


Yeah that advice seems...really bad.

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Re: Career Services - Don't go for a 1L SA... True?

Postby thesealocust » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:34 pm

Just... every time I remember this thread, my spleen hurts. You may need to name and shame this person/school for the good of students who might be affected. This is like, a public health concern on a greater scale than swine flu.

This career counselor is literally the cancer that is killing the legal profession.

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Re: Career Services - Don't go for a 1L SA... True?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:30 pm

No offered as a 1L and working at a V20 this summer. Only one interviewer asked if I got an offer, the rest didn't care.

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Re: Career Services - Don't go for a 1L SA... True?

Postby kalvano » Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:42 pm

I knew the advice would be terrible since the thread title began with something about Career Services.

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Re: Career Services - Don't go for a 1L SA... True?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:No offered as a 1L and working at a V20 this summer. Only one interviewer asked if I got an offer, the rest didn't care.


For the interviewer that asked, did you get a sense that it was some sort of deal-breaker?

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Re: Career Services - Don't go for a 1L SA... True?

Postby manofjustice » Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:51 pm

You go to Northwestern. Your Career Services advice is credited, but they are still lying to you. No, a 1L SA will have no adverse effect on your 2L chances at BigLaw. But your Career Services is, in their minds--whether right or wrong--trying to "save" you from a dark path. If everything you do from -0L forward is aimed at getting BigLaw, 1) you prolly won't have any better or worse chance at it and 2) you won't ever know anything else. They want you to clerk for a judge. It's not uncredited advice. You may fall in love with the law, still get a 2L SA, decide to clerk for CoA, and still get BigLaw if you really want it (with a signing bonus) or actually figure out something else that you want even more and save your life from a few divorces. You discover yourself. That's what CSO is hoping you'll do with your 1L summer.

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Re: Career Services - Don't go for a 1L SA... True?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:52 pm

I was a 1L SA, and received an offer to return for 2L SA. I did not strike out during OCI, and am going to a firm in a different market. The 1L recruiting cycle occurs so much earlier than other opportunities that it won't hurt you to go for it. You can also recycle a lot of application materials, if you are organized. I received four 1L summer offers. There was a firm where I did not get a 1L summer offer, but they gave me a 2L offer. I had coffee over the summer with a practice group chair and he sent my materials to the summer recruiting committee (this is for the firm that rejected me for the 1L summer). Networking, organizational skills and being able to hustle are helpful.

Only one firm asked if I received an offer during the 2L OCI process. I think firms were more concerned with who else I was interviewing with during the OCI process.

Also, my grades did not drop during spring semester of 1L year.

With all things law school, but your hat in the ring and see what happens.

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Re: Career Services - Don't go for a 1L SA... True?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:55 pm

manofjustice wrote:You go to Northwestern. Your Career Services advice is credited, but they are still lying to you. No, a 1L SA will have no adverse effect on your 2L chances at BigLaw. But your Career Services is, in their minds--whether right or wrong--trying to "save" you from a dark path. If everything you do from -0L forward is aimed at getting BigLaw, 1) you prolly won't have any better or worse chance at it and 2) you won't ever know anything else. They want you to clerk for a judge. It's not uncredited advice. You may fall in love with the law, still get a 2L SA, decide to clerk for CoA, and still get BigLaw if you really want it (with a signing bonus) or actually figure out something else that you want even more and save your life from a few divorces. You discover yourself. That's what CSO is hoping you'll do with your 1L summer.



They want you to clerk for a judge so you have a law-related job for your 1L summer. This way, they appear to be doing their job. My school strongly encourages 1Ls to extern for judges.

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Re: Career Services - Don't go for a 1L SA... True?

Postby bk1 » Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:59 pm

manofjustice wrote:You go to Northwestern. Your Career Services advice is credited, but they are still lying to you. No, a 1L SA will have no adverse effect on your 2L chances at BigLaw. But your Career Services is, in their minds--whether right or wrong--trying to "save" you from a dark path. If everything you do from -0L forward is aimed at getting BigLaw, 1) you prolly won't have any better or worse chance at it and 2) you won't ever know anything else. They want you to clerk for a judge. It's not uncredited advice. You may fall in love with the law, still get a 2L SA, decide to clerk for CoA, and still get BigLaw if you really want it (with a signing bonus) or actually figure out something else that you want even more and save your life from a few divorces. You discover yourself. That's what CSO is hoping you'll do with your 1L summer.

This whole post is just wat. Biglaw doesn't give signing bonuses. Few people have the option of clerking for a CoA judge. You can "fall in love with the law" (what does that even mean?) in biglaw. Etc, etc.

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Re: Career Services - Don't go for a 1L SA... True?

Postby manofjustice » Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:03 pm

bk1 wrote:
manofjustice wrote:You go to Northwestern. Your Career Services advice is credited, but they are still lying to you. No, a 1L SA will have no adverse effect on your 2L chances at BigLaw. But your Career Services is, in their minds--whether right or wrong--trying to "save" you from a dark path. If everything you do from -0L forward is aimed at getting BigLaw, 1) you prolly won't have any better or worse chance at it and 2) you won't ever know anything else. They want you to clerk for a judge. It's not uncredited advice. You may fall in love with the law, still get a 2L SA, decide to clerk for CoA, and still get BigLaw if you really want it (with a signing bonus) or actually figure out something else that you want even more and save your life from a few divorces. You discover yourself. That's what CSO is hoping you'll do with your 1L summer.

This whole post is just wat. Biglaw doesn't give signing bonuses. Few people have the option of clerking for a CoA judge. You can "fall in love with the law" (what does that even mean?) in biglaw. Etc, etc.


Yes, BigLaw gives signing bonuses to some people who clerk for CoA and most who clerk for SCOTUS. Yes, few people have the option to clerk for a CoA judge, but having interned for a DC judge might help--no, not actually in getting the job, but in getting OP to want the job. And finally, no--you cannot fall in love with the law (yes that has a meaning; that you don't know what it is belies your point) in BigLaw as an SA or a first- or second- or hell, any-year associate. Or hell, maybe even as a partner.




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