3L, F**k It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.

Decide my future

Fuck it, go to San Francisco: might as well try given your current situation
27
38%
Stay in Ohio: you're seriously out of your mind, stay with where your ties are located and avoid the risk
37
52%
Middle Ground: don't put all your eggs in either basket (this option is discouraged, but if you pick it, please explain)
7
10%
 
Total votes: 71

User avatar
deadpanic
Posts: 1168
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:09 pm

Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby deadpanic » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:05 am

patrickd139 wrote:Voted option 2: Stay in Ohio. Some thoughts, in no particular order.

You've sent out a few dozen emails. That's a good start, even if you didn't end up with an offer. But I look at it this way-- you had that outcome in a state where you attended both the flagship UG and law school, whose alumni flood the market, and where your ties are clearly the deepest. I can't imagine you're going to have anything close to that success in California. Think hard about whether you're reading too much into your anecdotal experience.

Have your lunch contact put you in touch with these 2-3 OSU super alums before you make this decision. That would be my first priority.

You mentioned "send[ing] out...applications to Ohio firms". Networking is clearly the best option for you, and one you appear to be pretty good at. It's apparently produced some tangible promising leads in SF. Why not apply those tactics to Ohio?

At the vary least, I'd sit for the Ohio bar and network over the break. Seems to me that you're hung up on applying for and then not sitting for, the OH bar exam. Can you still sign up for the CA bar exam later? It's better to waste $600 than put all of your eggs in one basket by foregoing the legal market where you have the most serious ties.

Grass is always greener, bro. Play the statistical odds on this one.


I agree with pretty much all of this.

I would pass the CA bar at the very least before I moved out there.

User avatar
Tom Joad
Posts: 4542
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:56 pm

Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby Tom Joad » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:06 am

Why not, dude? Go for it.

User avatar
AVBucks4239
Posts: 870
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:37 pm

Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby AVBucks4239 » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:38 am

patrickd139 wrote:Voted option 2: Stay in Ohio. Some thoughts, in no particular order.

You've sent out a few dozen emails. That's a good start, even if you didn't end up with an offer. But I look at it this way-- you had that outcome in a state where you attended both the flagship UG and law school, whose alumni flood the market, and where your ties are clearly the deepest. I can't imagine you're going to have anything close to that success in California. Think hard about whether you're reading too much into your anecdotal experience.

Have your lunch contact put you in touch with these 2-3 OSU super alums before you make this decision. That would be my first priority.

You mentioned "send[ing] out...applications to Ohio firms". Networking is clearly the best option for you, and one you appear to be pretty good at. It's apparently produced some tangible promising leads in SF. Why not apply those tactics to Ohio?

At the vary least, I'd sit for the Ohio bar and network over the break. Seems to me that you're hung up on applying for and then not sitting for, the OH bar exam. Can you still sign up for the CA bar exam later? It's better to waste $600 than put all of your eggs in one basket by foregoing the legal market where you have the most serious ties.

Grass is always greener, bro. Play the statistical odds on this one.

This is a pretty good post.

What I will say, however, is that I think alumni ties are a bit devalued in Ohio. I know this sounds absurd based on what everybody says around here, but it just seems like law school ties don't matter that much in the direct market. My hunch is that with thousands of Moritz alums in Cleveland and Columbus, the impact of networking with them has not had the same impact as networking with SF alums.

On the other hand, most of the SF alums I contacted bent over backward to try and meet with me or talk over the phone, all on less than 24 hours notice. It was quite humbling. It was almost like they thought, "Wow! Another Ohio State guy wants to come out here! I'll look out for you."

Right now, I just feel like continuing to build relationships with them could eventually lead to something. I can't say the same with the hundreds of people I've contacted in Ohio.

User avatar
Old Gregg
Posts: 5413
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:26 pm

Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby Old Gregg » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:46 am

If you really must do this, pass the CA bad and use a friend's address in SF on your resume. Fly out if you get an interview.

You'll save a lot more money in the long run, and you'll get the same "practical benefit" of living there for job searching.

User avatar
patrickd139
Posts: 2883
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:53 pm

Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby patrickd139 » Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:27 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:If you really must do this, pass the CA bad and use a friend's address in SF on your resume. Fly out if you get an interview.

You'll save a lot more money in the long run, and you'll get the same "practical benefit" of living there for job searching.

This is also an excellent idea.

ninereal
Posts: 85
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:39 pm

Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby ninereal » Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:41 pm

AVBucks4239 wrote:
patrickd139 wrote:Voted option 2: Stay in Ohio. Some thoughts, in no particular order.

You've sent out a few dozen emails. That's a good start, even if you didn't end up with an offer. But I look at it this way-- you had that outcome in a state where you attended both the flagship UG and law school, whose alumni flood the market, and where your ties are clearly the deepest. I can't imagine you're going to have anything close to that success in California. Think hard about whether you're reading too much into your anecdotal experience.

Have your lunch contact put you in touch with these 2-3 OSU super alums before you make this decision. That would be my first priority.

You mentioned "send[ing] out...applications to Ohio firms". Networking is clearly the best option for you, and one you appear to be pretty good at. It's apparently produced some tangible promising leads in SF. Why not apply those tactics to Ohio?

At the vary least, I'd sit for the Ohio bar and network over the break. Seems to me that you're hung up on applying for and then not sitting for, the OH bar exam. Can you still sign up for the CA bar exam later? It's better to waste $600 than put all of your eggs in one basket by foregoing the legal market where you have the most serious ties.

Grass is always greener, bro. Play the statistical odds on this one.

This is a pretty good post.

What I will say, however, is that I think alumni ties are a bit devalued in Ohio. I know this sounds absurd based on what everybody says around here, but it just seems like law school ties don't matter that much in the direct market. My hunch is that with thousands of Moritz alums in Cleveland and Columbus, the impact of networking with them has not had the same impact as networking with SF alums.

On the other hand, most of the SF alums I contacted bent over backward to try and meet with me or talk over the phone, all on less than 24 hours notice. It was quite humbling. It was almost like they thought, "Wow! Another Ohio State guy wants to come out here! I'll look out for you."

Right now, I just feel like continuing to build relationships with them could eventually lead to something. I can't say the same with the hundreds of people I've contacted in Ohio.


Similar experience here re: alums in faraway cities, FWIW. I came from an East Coast T14 and moved back to my West Coast midmarket hometown, and alums out here have been very willing to help me out - I think about two-thirds of them have responded to my cold emails.

User avatar
AVBucks4239
Posts: 870
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:37 pm

Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby AVBucks4239 » Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:56 pm

ninereal wrote:Similar experience here re: alums in faraway cities, FWIW. I came from an East Coast T14 and moved back to my West Coast midmarket hometown, and alums out here have been very willing to help me out - I think about two-thirds of them have responded to my cold emails.

Ya, this has been my experience. To get more specific, I sent out 12 cold emails to OSU alums in SF. I got eight responses. I got lunch with one less than three hours after sending. I got coffee with another the next day. I have had three phone calls. I have three more set up this week.

Any networking in Ohio has had nowhere close to this type of success rate.

User avatar
ph14
Posts: 3225
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:15 pm

Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby ph14 » Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:23 pm

I voted Middle Ground. At the very least, I don't think you should pick one of the two most difficult major legal markets in the country (with the other probably being Washington D.C.) when you don't have ties there and don't have stellar credentials. You should at least keep applying to Ohio/Midwest firms and other California legal markets, namely Los Angeles.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273366
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:15 pm

Its really, really hard to get a job in SF, and only slightly easier in SV. With diligence though, I do hope things will work for you.

I've met this guy http://www.kasowitz.com/l-okey-onyejekwe-jr/ through a networking event and remembered that he was from OSU.

User avatar
ph14
Posts: 3225
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:15 pm

Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby ph14 » Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Its really, really hard to get a job in SF, and only slightly easier in SV. With diligence though, I do hope things will work for you.

I've met this guy http://www.kasowitz.com/l-okey-onyejekwe-jr/ through a networking event and remembered that he was from OSU.


Wow, M.D. --> J.D.? And a practicing physician and lawyer?! Not to mention military veteran.

To all TLSers who ask about softs, take note. These are the kind of softs that can make a difference in your application.

User avatar
AVBucks4239
Posts: 870
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:37 pm

Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby AVBucks4239 » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:15 pm

Went to my CSO and the one thing she said that I kind of figured but didn't know for sure: nobody takes you seriously in the Bay Area until you pass the bar.

Anybody have any experience to confirm this?

User avatar
Old Gregg
Posts: 5413
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:26 pm

Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby Old Gregg » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:57 pm

patrickd139 wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:If you really must do this, pass the CA bad and use a friend's address in SF on your resume. Fly out if you get an interview.

You'll save a lot more money in the long run, and you'll get the same "practical benefit" of living there for job searching.

This is also an excellent idea.


OP is a massive idiot if he doesnt consider this. Not to mention that this thread is overall just...

Anonymous User
Posts: 273366
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:38 pm

AVBucks4239 wrote:Went to my CSO and the one thing she said that I kind of figured but didn't know for sure: nobody takes you seriously in the Bay Area until you pass the bar.

Anybody have any experience to confirm this?


pretty accurate. but more opportunities pre-bar are available if you have an EE or some kind of IP background.

User avatar
bruinfan10
Posts: 510
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:25 am

Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby bruinfan10 » Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:26 pm

If you can't get hired in Ohio, you sure as hell won't get hired in SF.

It's not that the SF legal market is particularly weak right now, as some other posters have indicated: it's that you don't have the qualifications or the personal ties.

User avatar
sap
Posts: 269
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:16 pm

Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby sap » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:19 pm

Also, you should consider, if you're a straight guy: do you want to have sex in the next several years? With a girl?

Don't move to San Francisco. You'll be an unemployed lawyer with a LOT of debt who graduated from a school that most people here haven't heard of, living in a crappy apartment, in a city where there are 1.6 men for every woman. And most of them are software engineers with no debt. Nobody will want to date you, and nobody will want to hire you.

User avatar
brotherdarkness
Posts: 3254
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:11 pm

Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby brotherdarkness » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:20 pm

.
Last edited by brotherdarkness on Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
sap
Posts: 269
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:16 pm

Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby sap » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:33 pm

brotherdarkness wrote:
sap wrote:Also, you should consider, if you're a straight guy: do you want to have sex in the next several years? With a girl?

Don't move to San Francisco. You'll be an unemployed lawyer with a LOT of debt who graduated from a school that most people here haven't heard of, living in a crappy apartment, in a city where there are 1.6 men for every woman. And most of them are software engineers with no debt. Nobody will want to date you, and nobody will want to hire you.


LOL.


I mean, I know it sounds kinda frivolous, but sex is on there on human needs just like food and shelter. It sounds like OP has visited SF but hasn't tried living here, and yeah, Bourban and Branch fun! The mission has good papusas! The weather is good once a week and is never snowy! But that's not all there is to the bay. Being unemployed is rough, and being unemployed and undatable is probably rougher.

User avatar
Danger Zone
Posts: 7310
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:36 am

Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby Danger Zone » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:46 pm

Holy shit :lol:

User avatar
AVBucks4239
Posts: 870
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:37 pm

Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby AVBucks4239 » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:09 pm

sap wrote:Also, you should consider, if you're a straight guy: do you want to have sex in the next several years? With a girl?

Don't move to San Francisco. You'll be an unemployed lawyer with a LOT of debt who graduated from a school that most people here haven't heard of, living in a crappy apartment, in a city where there are 1.6 men for every woman. And most of them are software engineers with no debt. Nobody will want to date you, and nobody will want to hire you.

I actually laughed out loud at this, especially since I don't think I could get ass in Amsterdam, let alone SF.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273366
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:18 pm

This is actually an important point. SF is a bad place to move as a single male, and Silicon Valley is downright atrocious. Don't move there as a guy unless you are bringing a girl (preferably a wife) with you.

User avatar
BarbellDreams
Posts: 2256
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:10 pm

Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby BarbellDreams » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:36 pm

Here is the thing: No matter what it will be easier for you to find a job in OH than it will be to find a job in SF. Thats an indisputable fact. Now that we have that out of the way, what do you hate about OH so much?

I'm not necessarily saying not to go because I am a big fan of people who "take a shot" in life. Realize that your chances of striking out are high, but I respect people who at least take a swing. This whole situation depends on a few factors:

- How risk adverse are you?
- How depressed would you be if you never found a legal job at all?
- How much money do you have saved up to move and live in SF (and for how long)?

If you're set on going, and it kinda sounds like you are, I would strongly recommend making as many connections as possible like you are doing and potentially spending the summer studying at your parents house to save money. Best of luck, you're definitely looking to take a borderline reckless chance here, but "borderline" is stressed there.

User avatar
AVBucks4239
Posts: 870
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:37 pm

Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby AVBucks4239 » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:16 pm

So, thanks for the help everybody. I was hellbent on "SF or bust" before making this thread (as you could probably tell), but taking everything into consideration, here's the plan I'm going to implement:

(1) Continue networking really hard in San Francisco. It's hard to describe, but the alums have been so incredibly receptive. It's made me more enthusiastic about post-graduation than anything since getting no-offered. Also, I just booked another trip there in the beginning of January that I'm pretty much going to use exclusively as a networking trip. Everybody I've talked to has been receptive to coffee/lunch, so I'm going to try meeting 8-10 people face-to-face and going from there. If it goes well and gets to any sort of lead, I'll go out there again over spring break or after finals.

(2) I need to stop being a pussy and use the same personally-focused tactics in Cleveland and Columbus. No more applications sent to HR people, because I'm zero for the century on that front. I do need to get more personal with my emails to alums, because like I said, they just seem to think, "Oh, another alum will handle it."

(3) I emailed my CSO, and I don't have to decide which bar I'm taking until April. Ohio signups are early, but I'm probably going to sign up, pay the fees, and then wait California out.

(4) Evaluate everything in April and make a logical, rational, and economically sound decision as to which bar to take. I think my parents would either let me live at home or help a little financially if I moved to San Francisco, so I'd need to weigh all of that.


I'd be lying if I said I wasn't still leaning towards San Francisco, because personally speaking, I've been dying to both (1) move to a big city and (2) just hit the reset button on life, start over, and take a huge risk. That just fits my personality, and I feel like this would be an incredibly opportune time to go for that.

Nevertheless, thanks to everybody for your personal insight/experience. Sometimes you lose sight of what's right in front of your face, and I needed a few "you're a fucking dumbass" comments to remember that.

User avatar
brotherdarkness
Posts: 3254
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:11 pm

Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby brotherdarkness » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:27 pm

.
Last edited by brotherdarkness on Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
unc0mm0n1
Posts: 1714
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 1:06 pm

Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:52 pm

ph14 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Its really, really hard to get a job in SF, and only slightly easier in SV. With diligence though, I do hope things will work for you.

I've met this guy http://www.kasowitz.com/l-okey-onyejekwe-jr/ through a networking event and remembered that he was from OSU.


Wow, M.D. --> J.D.? And a practicing physician and lawyer?! Not to mention military veteran.

To all TLSers who ask about softs, take note. These are the kind of softs that can make a difference in your application.


This dude is my hero. Residency at Columbia, SLS alum, teaches residents at Stanford, partner in a law firm, fought in Iraq on a flight crew. I don't want to hear anyone complain about hours ever again. This guy billed enough to become a partner while still practicing medicine.

User avatar
Lawst
Posts: 504
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:02 am

Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby Lawst » Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:20 am

AVBucks4239 wrote:I'm going to put the TL;DR first. If you want more details, scroll down:

Here's the TL;DR: I'm a 3L at Ohio State with decent grades. I didn't get an offer last summer, the job search has been impossible and miserable thus far, and I'm tired of it. So I'm strongly considering San Francisco. I'm posting here for people to say, "Fuck it, I agree with you, might as well try given how bad the Ohio market is," or, "You're out of your god damned mind."

Here's more details:
-From Ohio. Family in Ohio. Undergrad at Ohio State.
-Currently a 3L at Ohio State with decently solid grades (not quite top 10% material, but very respectable).
-Probably going to graduate with $110k debt (law school plus undergrad)
-Published on Business Law Journal, currently Note Editor.
-Summered at a firm in Akron, where only one out of five SAs got offers (I was obviously not one). This has made getting interviews very difficult (hard to explain why I didn't get an offer without getting an interview).
-No luck at 3L OCI, either.
-I've sent out 109 applications to Ohio firms, got one interview, and it sucked (the guy asked me some dumb question about mountain climbing).
-I'm tired of all this bullshit.
-I love San Francisco. Probably my favorite city in the US. Just visited there again this past weekend. Had lunch and phone conversations with half a dozen alums. Going again in January.
-Generally speaking, OSU alums in San Francisco have been incredibly helpful and receptive. Several have also made it sound like they would go to the plate for me to try and help out in any way possible.
-One more alum thing: I had lunch with an OSU alum, and in short, he basically said that there are 2-3 extremely well established OSU grads out there who can make things happen in terms of getting me, at minimum, part time work while I search for full time employment. He did this (did doc review for about six months), networked, and got FT employment within a year. Anecdotal, of course, but that would be a career path I'd be willing to stomach.
-All this is likely making me irrationally optimistic for the SF market.
-I'm going to be in SF again in January to continue networking with alums.
-Because of the seemingly impossible job chase in Ohio, fuck it, I really want to go out to The City and make a go of it.


So, have I lost my mind, or should I actually start signing up to take the California bar?


Sounds like you're pretty much over Ohio in general, so it probably wouldn't hurt to expand your horizons, and maybe you should also look at other cities too. You really won't miss Ohio. Signed, person who fled years ago.




Return to “Legal Employment”

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.