1L BigLaw SA --> 2L In House --> BigLaw?

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Anonymous User
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1L BigLaw SA --> 2L In House --> BigLaw?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:39 pm

So I had a 1L Biglaw SA. Then I struck out at OCI.

Question is, assuming I can get a hold of an in house position, do you think having had a SA position would make it possible for me to do 3L OCI or leverage these experiences back into biglaw after graduation?

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Re: 1L BigLaw SA --> 2L In House --> BigLaw?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:33 am

bump

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bk1
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Re: 1L BigLaw SA --> 2L In House --> BigLaw?

Postby bk1 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:46 am

Is it possible? Of course it is. But the real question: is it likely? I don't know, though I suspect not, purely because the odds for everybody are low. The number of 3L OCI offers is extremely low (I think around 80ish offers, iirc). If your 1L summer firm generally gives offers for 1Ls to return as 2Ls and you didn't get one then that may hurt your chances as well (less likely and less damaging than a no offer after a 2L summer, but it can still happen and it can still hurt). An in-house internship and having a 1L SA may make you look more attractive than most 3L OCI applicants, though you may look less attractive than someone with a 2L SA and an offer to return to their firm. It's hard to say, but I think that even most people with 2L SAs and offers to return don't have a great shot at 3L OCI since the number of offers is small.

Knowing your odds at biglaw isn't all that meaningful though. If you want to do it, you should apply as a 3L. If your in-house internship gives offers (and you get one) then you should apply to biglaw if that's what you'd prefer to do after graduation. If it doesn't (or you don't) then you should apply because you need a job and should be applying to almost anything under the sun. In either case whether you have a great shot doesn't really change the calculus of whether you should apply.

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thesealocust
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Re: 1L BigLaw SA --> 2L In House --> BigLaw?

Postby thesealocust » Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So I had a 1L Biglaw SA. Then I struck out at OCI.

Question is, assuming I can get a hold of an in house position, do you think having had a SA position would make it possible for me to do 3L OCI or leverage these experiences back into biglaw after graduation?


Not any more likely than the other 40 to 45 thousand law students per year who wanted a 2L biglaw summer gig but didn't get one.

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Re: 1L BigLaw SA --> 2L In House --> BigLaw?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:38 pm

thesealocust wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So I had a 1L Biglaw SA. Then I struck out at OCI.

Question is, assuming I can get a hold of an in house position, do you think having had a SA position would make it possible for me to do 3L OCI or leverage these experiences back into biglaw after graduation?


Not any more likely than the other 40 to 45 thousand law students per year who wanted a 2L biglaw summer gig but didn't get one.


I guess what I was getting at was that I've heard that a large part of 3L OCI is "reserved" only for those who had a SA. If my SA was during my 1L summer instead of my 2L summer (and assuming I can spin a good story as to why this was the case), do you think i'll qualify for the "SA required" 3L OCI interviews?

I'm pretty sure (fingers crossed) that my 1L SA firm would give me a cold-offer in this case so I could tell 3L OCI firms I have an offer in hand.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: 1L BigLaw SA --> 2L In House --> BigLaw?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So I had a 1L Biglaw SA. Then I struck out at OCI.

Question is, assuming I can get a hold of an in house position, do you think having had a SA position would make it possible for me to do 3L OCI or leverage these experiences back into biglaw after graduation?


Not any more likely than the other 40 to 45 thousand law students per year who wanted a 2L biglaw summer gig but didn't get one.


I guess what I was getting at was that I've heard that a large part of 3L OCI is "reserved" only for those who had a SA. If my SA was during my 1L summer instead of my 2L summer (and assuming I can spin a good story as to why this was the case), do you think i'll qualify for the "SA required" 3L OCI interviews?

I'm pretty sure (fingers crossed) that my 1L SA firm would give me a cold-offer in this case so I could tell 3L OCI firms I have an offer in hand.


Why wouldn't you SA your 2L year, and why would your 1L SA firm give you an offer to return after graduation rather than asking you to come back the following summer? This doesn't make much sense. But, yes, having a post-graduation offer from a v100 biglaw firm will give you a better shot at 3L OCI than going into 3L OCI empty handed. The typical way of getting a post-graduation offer from a v100 biglaw firm is through a 2L SA, but if you somehow get an open offer through a 1L SA and the firm does not require you to come back your 2L summer, then that would be helpful for 3L OCI. You would probably want to make that clear that you have an offer from your 1L SA firm in your cover letter though, because most people reviewing a resume with a firm job 1L summer and then an in-house internship 2L summer would probably assume that the person was not asked to return after the 1L SA.

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Re: 1L BigLaw SA --> 2L In House --> BigLaw?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:37 pm

XxSpyKEx wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So I had a 1L Biglaw SA. Then I struck out at OCI.

Question is, assuming I can get a hold of an in house position, do you think having had a SA position would make it possible for me to do 3L OCI or leverage these experiences back into biglaw after graduation?


Not any more likely than the other 40 to 45 thousand law students per year who wanted a 2L biglaw summer gig but didn't get one.


I guess what I was getting at was that I've heard that a large part of 3L OCI is "reserved" only for those who had a SA. If my SA was during my 1L summer instead of my 2L summer (and assuming I can spin a good story as to why this was the case), do you think i'll qualify for the "SA required" 3L OCI interviews?

I'm pretty sure (fingers crossed) that my 1L SA firm would give me a cold-offer in this case so I could tell 3L OCI firms I have an offer in hand.


Why wouldn't you SA your 2L year, and why would your 1L SA firm give you an offer to return after graduation rather than asking you to come back the following summer? This doesn't make much sense. But, yes, having a post-graduation offer from a v100 biglaw firm will give you a better shot at 3L OCI than going into 3L OCI empty handed. The typical way of getting a post-graduation offer from a v100 biglaw firm is through a 2L SA, but if you somehow get an open offer through a 1L SA and the firm does not require you to come back your 2L summer, then that would be helpful for 3L OCI. You would probably want to make that clear that you have an offer from your 1L SA firm in your cover letter though, because most people reviewing a resume with a firm job 1L summer and then an in-house internship 2L summer would probably assume that the person was not asked to return after the 1L SA.


Agreed, its a strange situation. I would probably try and spin 'the 1L firm invited me back, but I wanted to try in house' or something like that. This is helpful though, thanks.

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Re: 1L BigLaw SA --> 2L In House --> BigLaw?

Postby dj_roomba » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:51 pm

Sorry. Don't want to change the subject too much but it seems quite "common" (as in you're like the third person i've seen recently) for people with 1L SAs to strike out 2L OCI.

I'm wondering why this is, especially since it's more difficult to obtain a 1L SA

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Re: 1L BigLaw SA --> 2L In House --> BigLaw?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:32 pm

dj_roomba wrote:Sorry. Don't want to change the subject too much but it seems quite "common" (as in you're like the third person i've seen recently) for people with 1L SAs to strike out 2L OCI.

I'm wondering why this is, especially since it's more difficult to obtain a 1L SA


Maybe firms are more conservative with their 2L hiring in the sense that if they give an offer to you, they 100% want you to take it. If you had a 1L SA you may be a flight risk.

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Re: 1L BigLaw SA --> 2L In House --> BigLaw?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:48 pm

dj_roomba wrote:Sorry. Don't want to change the subject too much but it seems quite "common" (as in you're like the third person i've seen recently) for people with 1L SAs to strike out 2L OCI.

I'm wondering why this is, especially since it's more difficult to obtain a 1L SA


ya im really confused by this also

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Re: 1L BigLaw SA --> 2L In House --> BigLaw?

Postby gregfootball2001 » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:50 pm

dj_roomba wrote:Sorry. Don't want to change the subject too much but it seems quite "common" (as in you're like the third person i've seen recently) for people with 1L SAs to strike out 2L OCI.

I'm wondering why this is, especially since it's more difficult to obtain a 1L SA

Because, just b/c you did well fall semester doesn't mean you'll do well spring semester/overall, and then maybe you don't make law review, and you don't get as many interviews...yadda yadda. It's a tough world out there.

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Re: 1L BigLaw SA --> 2L In House --> BigLaw?

Postby redsox550 » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:55 pm

gregfootball2001 wrote:
dj_roomba wrote:Sorry. Don't want to change the subject too much but it seems quite "common" (as in you're like the third person i've seen recently) for people with 1L SAs to strike out 2L OCI.

I'm wondering why this is, especially since it's more difficult to obtain a 1L SA

Because, just b/c you did well fall semester doesn't mean you'll do well spring semester/overall, and then maybe you don't make law review, and you don't get as many interviews...yadda yadda. It's a tough world out there.


still, assuming you have to be in top 5-10% of your class at like a t14 to get a 1L SA then you would have to REALLY bomb to have too shitty of a GPA to get a 2L SA. and assuming you go to a top 50 law school then you would prob have to be in the top 2% , and yes you could realistically bomb the spring semester, but i would be surprised if too many people go from top 2% to median. (which would still put you in top quarter, but thats not good enough for most T50's)

+ add the fact that you probably need to be pretty good at interviewing to get a 1L SA it would seem the chances of screwing up OCI would be less

+you would be able to have an intelligent convo about what you like/want to do in Biglaw which I fell most cant have (because they have no clue what being in Biglaw is) so that would only seem to help in interviews

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Re: 1L BigLaw SA --> 2L In House --> BigLaw?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:33 pm

redsox550 wrote:
gregfootball2001 wrote:
dj_roomba wrote:Sorry. Don't want to change the subject too much but it seems quite "common" (as in you're like the third person i've seen recently) for people with 1L SAs to strike out 2L OCI.

I'm wondering why this is, especially since it's more difficult to obtain a 1L SA

Because, just b/c you did well fall semester doesn't mean you'll do well spring semester/overall, and then maybe you don't make law review, and you don't get as many interviews...yadda yadda. It's a tough world out there.


still, assuming you have to be in top 5-10% of your class at like a t14 to get a 1L SA then you would have to REALLY bomb to have too shitty of a GPA to get a 2L SA. and assuming you go to a top 50 law school then you would prob have to be in the top 2% , and yes you could realistically bomb the spring semester, but i would be surprised if too many people go from top 2% to median. (which would still put you in top quarter, but thats not good enough for most T50's)

+ add the fact that you probably need to be pretty good at interviewing to get a 1L SA it would seem the chances of screwing up OCI would be less

+you would be able to have an intelligent convo about what you like/want to do in Biglaw which I fell most cant have (because they have no clue what being in Biglaw is) so that would only seem to help in interviews


I'm the OP. Don't know where you got this T50 thing from. I was at a T14. And I didn't have top 5-10% grades.

Anyways, your latter two points about being good at interviewing and having a talking point in interviews was something I expected to help me as well. No such luck. I'm not sure what it was, in fact in all of my interviews (OCI and callbacks), I very consistently heard positive feedback about having had a 1L SA.

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Re: 1L BigLaw SA --> 2L In House --> BigLaw?

Postby Danger Zone » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:37 pm

redsox550 wrote:
gregfootball2001 wrote:
dj_roomba wrote:Sorry. Don't want to change the subject too much but it seems quite "common" (as in you're like the third person i've seen recently) for people with 1L SAs to strike out 2L OCI.

I'm wondering why this is, especially since it's more difficult to obtain a 1L SA

Because, just b/c you did well fall semester doesn't mean you'll do well spring semester/overall, and then maybe you don't make law review, and you don't get as many interviews...yadda yadda. It's a tough world out there.


still, assuming you have to be in top 5-10% of your class at like a t14 to get a 1L SA then you would have to REALLY bomb to have too shitty of a GPA to get a 2L SA. and assuming you go to a top 50 law school then you would prob have to be in the top 2% , and yes you could realistically bomb the spring semester, but i would be surprised if too many people go from top 2% to median. (which would still put you in top quarter, but thats not good enough for most T50's)

+ add the fact that you probably need to be pretty good at interviewing to get a 1L SA it would seem the chances of screwing up OCI would be less

+you would be able to have an intelligent convo about what you like/want to do in Biglaw which I fell most cant have (because they have no clue what being in Biglaw is) so that would only seem to help in interviews

Grades are a necessary, though not sufficient, prerequisite for obtaining dat 2L SA.

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Re: 1L BigLaw SA --> 2L In House --> BigLaw?

Postby Nelson » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:43 am

dj_roomba wrote:Sorry. Don't want to change the subject too much but it seems quite "common" (as in you're like the third person i've seen recently) for people with 1L SAs to strike out 2L OCI.

I'm wondering why this is, especially since it's more difficult to obtain a 1L SA

1L SAs don't go to the top of the class ITE. They go to diversity candidates, connected folks, and Texans. None of those three characteristics are nearly as important for OCI. Having the SA itself is meaningless at OCI because you don't really pick up enough skills to be valuable.

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Re: 1L BigLaw SA --> 2L In House --> BigLaw?

Postby dj_roomba » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:51 am

Nelson wrote:
dj_roomba wrote:Sorry. Don't want to change the subject too much but it seems quite "common" (as in you're like the third person i've seen recently) for people with 1L SAs to strike out 2L OCI.

I'm wondering why this is, especially since it's more difficult to obtain a 1L SA

1L SAs don't go to the top of the class ITE. They go to diversity candidates, connected folks, and Texans. None of those three characteristics are nearly as important for OCI. Having the SA itself is meaningless at OCI because you don't really pick up enough skills to be valuable.


Ah that makes sense.
Thanks

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Re: 1L BigLaw SA --> 2L In House --> BigLaw?

Postby thesealocust » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:45 am

Nelson wrote:
dj_roomba wrote:Sorry. Don't want to change the subject too much but it seems quite "common" (as in you're like the third person i've seen recently) for people with 1L SAs to strike out 2L OCI.

I'm wondering why this is, especially since it's more difficult to obtain a 1L SA

1L SAs don't go to the top of the class ITE. They go to diversity candidates, connected folks, and Texans. None of those three characteristics are nearly as important for OCI. Having the SA itself is meaningless at OCI because you don't really pick up enough skills to be valuable.


^ Bingo. There are definitely SOME 1L SA positions available for people with absolute top of the class credentials, but even there it's often about firms trying to attract people away from the "usual suspects"

1L SAs are a bizarro world crapshoot (but grades help). 2L SAs are much closer to a straight up GPA + school attended shootout.

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Re: 1L BigLaw SA --> 2L In House --> BigLaw?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:14 am

OP: Did your 1L firm give you an offer?

I was a 1L SA as well, but I received an offer. I will go to a different firm my 2L summer. Almost every firm I interviewed with asked if I received an offer.

My mentor, who is a partner at a V10, told me that it says a lot if the firm who had you around for 8-11 weeks did not give you an offer. It's like shooting yourself in the foot.

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Re: 1L BigLaw SA --> 2L In House --> BigLaw?

Postby piccolittle » Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:26 am

I think the main lesson here is not to rely on OCI. Go in-house your 2L summer and absolutely hustle all summer until you get that postgrad job. 3L OCI is a total joke, but you can network your way into one of the rare 3L openings (that usually don't get filled through OCI) if you work and cultivate the respect and support of your in-house supervisors.

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Re: 1L BigLaw SA --> 2L In House --> BigLaw?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:51 am

Nelson wrote:
dj_roomba wrote:Sorry. Don't want to change the subject too much but it seems quite "common" (as in you're like the third person i've seen recently) for people with 1L SAs to strike out 2L OCI.

I'm wondering why this is, especially since it's more difficult to obtain a 1L SA

1L SAs don't go to the top of the class ITE. They go to diversity candidates, connected folks, and Texans. None of those three characteristics are nearly as important for OCI. Having the SA itself is meaningless at OCI because you don't really pick up enough skills to be valuable.

And if I can be cynical, I think there are a number of firms that offer 1L diversity SAs just to look like they're doing something about diversity, not necessarily because they're really interested in possibly hiring those people permanently.

(This may be limited to my law school's small, secondary market, and it may be an artifact of the economic crash and its affect on OCI/2L hiring for my class - I graduated 2011. But it's something I've wondered about.)

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Re: 1L BigLaw SA --> 2L In House --> BigLaw?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:07 am

Nelson wrote:1L SAs don't go to the top of the class ITE. They go to diversity candidates, connected folks, and Texans. None of those three characteristics are nearly as important for OCI. Having the SA itself is meaningless at OCI because you don't really pick up enough skills to be valuable.

In my experience factors like HYSP undergrad and STEM degrees really help, as does speaking Mandarin or another desirable language.




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