Avoiding depression during job hunt

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EtherOne
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Re: Avoiding depression during job hunt

Postby EtherOne » Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:08 pm

Hustle, network, exercise, meditate, work hard, get good grades, and don't pay attention to other people's (friends, classmates, family members) opinions. Have a day-to-day mentality, and everything will work out at the end. NEVER give up! All successful people have a similar mentality. There is no way around it.

"Persistence guarantees that results are inevitable."

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Danger Zone
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Re: Avoiding depression during job hunt

Postby Danger Zone » Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:12 pm

EtherOne wrote:"Persistence guarantees that results are inevitable."

Whoever said this didn't go to law school.

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Re: Avoiding depression during job hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:13 pm

i'm median at a t6 and failed to get a job because i refuse to work in nyc.

here's how you avoid depression: get over yourselves and keep mass mailing. this is no time to be wallowing in self pity. yes, we all failed miserably at on campus recruiting, and mass-mailing works as well as baking cookies with no sugar, but if wasting time or giving up means we're done for sure. so we don't have jobs in october... it's not the end of the world. fucking up a client's case and getting disbarred is the end of the world. most people who posted here sound like they go to a good school. just remind yourself you're there for a reason, and you just need to dig yourself out of the hole you got stuck in because you messed up in one class/ got nervous during interviews/ interviewed late/ bid on the wrong market.

come on people, it's not over yet.

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Re: Avoiding depression during job hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I was feeling very down and then I started getting interview requests from my mass mails. I haven't had a ton, but I now have more interviews (which seem genuinely interested, some with fewer applicants, and really like my application) than I had before. I also have some who want to interview me later in the year (aren't hiring yet).

Are these BigLaw? not all (or even most). But even the ones that aren't BigLaw are well respected in their markets.

Anonymous User wrote:Lower t14 around median checking in. No jerb.

I've given up on the job hunt for now. I know it's hopeless. So I'm doing the only thing that isn't a complete waste of time -- gunning this semester hard. I don't expect ill ever get a job with my current stats. They've got to change.


Don't give up! My school and class rank combination are worse than yours and I've gotten bites. If you have only been mailing BigLaw, maybe start on mid-sized. I just keep expanding my list more and more. I'm working on improving my rank as well, but I think finding a job is more important (for me right now at least).

Also: every positive response I've received has been from following up.


Where do you find midsize firms? Are you just going off of NALP?

Do midsize firms have a slightly different recruiting timeline? Or is it identical to biglaw?


Please note with all of the below that I also do not have a job (though as I mentioned in the quoted, I do have interviews from mass mailing).

I used a lot of different sources to find place to apply. Some of them include: NALP, NLJ, Vault, school spreadsheets (I don't know how many schools keep these, but find out if yours does - they are a huge help in finding firms by size, location, and practice area), Chambers, AmLaw, and Resume Launchpad (but just for the name of the firm - a lot of the information is old). You can also google law firms in the area. There are a ton of online compilations (and ones in books that you should check if career services has) - I took from well over ten sources. Then I googled the firm name and used their website for the rest. I also used my high school, undergraduate, and law school alumni databases (these vary a LOT by school) to find attorneys and their firms. I've heard about some firms at various networking events and through bar associations.

I ended up with tons of overlap this way (which I sometimes was good at noticing and sometimes accidentally prepared an application for the same firm twice - and once sent it twice, but since it was a month plus apart and I hadn't heard back from the initial or follow up email, I doubt they noticed/cared), but it's better than missing any place that might be great! I ranked firms to determine what order to send them in, so that I got out the applications to firms in my primary target market, target size, and target practice areas first and have the firms in the places I'd go but not happily or with practice areas I'm not totally interested in last. This also helps in setting goals for sending them out (and makes it less overwhelming - when I'm sending out group 3 emails, I'm not as concerned that my group 6 emails aren't going out yet - because I care about group 3 firms more) - just don't get too neurotic with the group numbers or you'll waste time.

I have found that sending directly to the managing or hiring partner (or, if neither of those are clear from the website, someone you have things in common with - alumni of same school, similar background, practice area your resume fits well, whatever) is often more successful than the recruiting email. Sometimes firm websites are very clear that they want applications sent to a specific person or email, though, and I follow that - but might follow up later to another individual. I have also found, as noted earlier, that following up is essential. I just sent another batch of initial and follow up emails today. I've heard back from none of the initial emails and about five of the follow ups - even if it is a rejection, it's good to know and move on. I generally wait about three weeks to follow up, because you don't want to be annoying. However, a lot of people on here say two weeks, so it's up to you.

Mid-sized firms vary widely. Some hire one the same schedule as BigLaw, some don't hire until late spring, and some are in between. I've been sending my application now, because it is better to get a reply of 'we don't hire until __, so please resend then/but we'll keep your application for then' than to wait and get a reply of 'we hired in October and are full now.' Plus, I've gotten some firms tell me that they want to interview me later in the year when they hire - so it was probably good that I sent in my application so early.

Obviously, with all of this, a good spreadsheet is definitely necessary. Again, don't go crazy, but it's easier and quicker to compile the information this way for a bunch of firms and then input it into cover letters and emails. Batch work makes the whole thing a lot easier.

Anonymous User wrote:Above didn't say anything that made it seem like he'd hurt himself. I wound up getting a big law SA, but I was going crazy in the process.


I think they were referencing the looking up what happens to student loans if one commits suicide.

sparty99
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Re: Avoiding depression during job hunt

Postby sparty99 » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:11 pm

Everyone shutup with your debbie downer attitude. Pull your big boy pants up and get to work. I was below-median 1L year. What did I get in March? A firm job. I got nothing 2L OCI. What did I get in April of 2L year? A fortune 500 paid gig. What have I gotten this year? Nothing. But despite being well below median at a T30, I get some interviews. Why? Cause I hustle. Hustle like its my job. Hustle like its no tomorrow. I get sad, yeah, I do. But then I go to my go-daddy job sites and start applying to jobs. Big Law don't want me no more. Fine. Let me hit up mid-law. They don't want me? Fine. Let me hit up that usagov site. Then I'll hit up them non-profits. I'll hit up every state. I'm gonna hustle. When I get a rejection, I go play ball. I go hit them weights. I go see a movie and get dat large popcorn. Then I return. And I hit them job boards. Hard. When law says, we dont want you. I'll say, fine. Then I'll hit up Google. McKinsey. Accenture. I'll be damn if some ho in a cubicle named Rebecca who is the "Legal Recruiting Coordinator" doesn't want to interview me. NEXT. I'm go hustle cause that's all I can do....

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Re: Avoiding depression during job hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:19 am

You are not alone. Don't get too down.


I get lost in music to deal with the stress. "Rise Above" and "Depression" by Black Flag have been playing a ton.

haiking
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Re: Avoiding depression during job hunt

Postby haiking » Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:35 am

Note: For people who are depressed, "don't be depressed" is not helpful advice.

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Re: Avoiding depression during job hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:43 pm

I don't know if anyone here is a huge gamer like me, but whenever I feel especially depressed I like to immerse myself into a game.

Recently, I've been replaying Final Fantasy X. What a great game. When I was younger, I didn't really appreciate how eloquent the writing was in that game. In addition, it has a great soundtrack.

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Re: Avoiding depression during job hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 19, 2013 3:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I don't know if anyone here is a huge gamer like me, but whenever I feel especially depressed I like to immerse myself into a game.

Recently, I've been replaying Final Fantasy X. What a great game. When I was younger, I didn't really appreciate how eloquent the writing was in that game. In addition, it has a great soundtrack.


or the Zelda games.

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bjsesq
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Re: Avoiding depression during job hunt

Postby bjsesq » Sat Oct 19, 2013 3:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Hey guys, just wondering if anyone out there has any tips on how to avoid depression during the long, frustrating, fruitless (thus far) post-OCI mass mail job hunt. I just keep getting rejected left and right and it's been hard to keep my spirits up and keep trying as it's already October. Quite a bit below median at lower T14, so telling myself that I'll find something eventually just isn't that effective.


You can't avoid it, it will come. It's ok if it does. What isn't ok is letting cause inaction because you are so busy feeling sorry for yourself. I've been there (and still am). You just gotta keep going, dude. There is no other choice.

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Re: Avoiding depression during job hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:52 pm

You need to approach it rationally. Being depressed and doing nothing won't take away what is making you depressed. Lighting a fire under your ass, and hustling can.

I personally don't think it's irrational to consider suicide preferable to extreme poverty particularly when the odds of getting out if it are so low. There is a baseline of money that is necessary to be happy in our society, and making 300 a week with creditors harassing you all the time is worse than a peaceful death in my opinion. I stayed away from this for 3 reasons you should all keep in mind:

1.) Suicide will kill your life insurance policy
2.) The government will seize your assets to pay off some of your loans so you won't be able to leave your baseball card collection or what not by will.
3.) Depending on your belief in God, there is a chance you will go to hell.

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Re: Avoiding depression during job hunt

Postby aces » Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:You need to approach it rationally. Being depressed and doing nothing won't take away what is making you depressed. Lighting a fire under your ass, and hustling can.

I personally don't think it's irrational to consider suicide preferable to extreme poverty particularly when the odds of getting out if it are so low. There is a baseline of money that is necessary to be happy in our society, and making 300 a week with creditors harassing you all the time is worse than a peaceful death in my opinion. I stayed away from this for 3 reasons you should all keep in mind:

1.) Suicide will kill your life insurance policy
2.) The government will seize your assets to pay off some of your loans so you won't be able to leave your baseball card collection or what not by will.
3.) Depending on your belief in God, there is a chance you will go to hell.

No offense, but unless this is high-level satire, I imagine you've never been very close with someone suffering from depression. It's not this easy, and depression does not respond to "rational" logic.

Here's my advice: don't hesitate to reach out to close friends for support. Just having someone to vent to will help, and most people (even law school classmates with jobs) are probably more than willing to have a beer with you and commiserate, although non-law-school friends might be more ideal. One of the worst things you can do is isolate yourself-- I know it sucks to be around other law students when many of them are talking about their job situation and you have the inevitable spasms of shame and anger. But cutting off contact to others and hiding out in your mass mail cave can easily spiral out of control-- skipping classes, not doing reading, not eating, not showering/working out, etc.-- and that's where the real trouble begins. If you feel that coming on, please consider talking to a mental health specialist, even if you're nowhere close to self-harm or thoughts of suicide. Once you get bogged down in that shit, it's hard to come back from, so you gotta nip it in the bud.

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Re: Avoiding depression during job hunt

Postby Liam » Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:37 pm

I've always enjoyed this quote that seems apropos here.

"'Tis not in mortals to command success; but we'll do more, Sempronius, we'll deserve it." (From Joseph Addison's Cato.)

Always helps to keep me motivated when the world is shitting on me.

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Re: Avoiding depression during job hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:40 pm

No high level satire. I was deeply depressed, and that was what I was thinking. I think anyone smart enough to get into a law school from which they can realistically expect a job and rational enough to appreciate the importance of the 2L position is also able to think about the consequences of an extreme action like suicide before committing it. I also don't think most people want to harm themselves for the sake of harm whether it be self loathing or a cry for help. I think that many people would just rather not have to face the shame and hardships of extreme poverty and calls from creditors.

My situation was different from just the straight up not getting offers. I had good grades, and was getting rejected because of a disability. If you have weak grades and are getting rejected, the issue isn't really you. Statistically, there is also little correlation between success and grades after the first job so there may be light at the end of the tunnel. In my case, I had a great hand but couldn't play it. Odds are, my hand would not improve relative to the competition so there was no such light. I had also thought that my disability was just a small problem pertinent only to the disability, and the realization society labeled me as a freak but was just being nice for all these years changed me.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Avoiding depression during job hunt

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:41 pm

I agree with the poster above that depression doesn't respond to "rational" logic, though. That's why it's depression.

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Re: Avoiding depression during job hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:47 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I agree with the poster above that depression doesn't respond to "rational" logic, though. That's why it's depression.

I don't disagree, but even within a depressed state most can recognize the consequences of their actions. According to psychologists, the average depressed person actually has a MORE accurate portrayal of reality than the average person.

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Re: Avoiding depression during job hunt

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I agree with the poster above that depression doesn't respond to "rational" logic, though. That's why it's depression.

I don't disagree, but even within a depressed state most can recognize the consequences of their actions. According to psychologists, the average depressed person actually has a MORE accurate portrayal of reality than the average person.

I'm sure there's a study somewhere that says something like that, but that really really really doesn't jibe with any of my personal experiences with depression/people with depression. In any case, if you're suggesting there are rational reasons to commit suicide, I find that a really really distasteful attitude to take in a thread where people are struggling with depression. (If you're not suggesting that, I apologize, but I think it's one way your posts can be understood.)

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Re: Avoiding depression during job hunt

Postby Liam » Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:49 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I agree with the poster above that depression doesn't respond to "rational" logic, though. That's why it's depression.

I don't disagree, but even within a depressed state most can recognize the consequences of their actions. According to psychologists, the average depressed person actually has a MORE accurate portrayal of reality than the average person.

I'm sure there's a study somewhere that says something like that, but that really really really doesn't jibe with any of my personal experiences with depression/people with depression. In any case, if you're suggesting there are rational reasons to commit suicide, I find that a really really distasteful attitude to take in a thread where people are struggling with depression. (If you're not suggesting that, I apologize, but I think it's one way your posts can be understood.)


You two seem to be conflating depression as an emotion with depression as a clinical condition, in a way that is counter-productive. Clinical depression, to my understanding, is not generally caused or triggered, but simply happens (and can, of course, latch onto particular negative aspects of one's life). If OP feels that he is experiencing clinical depression, rather than just feeling morose and unmotivated due to his heretofore lack of success, than OP should seek professional help, not waste time asking a bunch of amateur internet psychologists how to brighten his spirits.

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Re: Avoiding depression during job hunt

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:51 pm

Well, when someone asks about avoiding depression, yes, I do think of clinical depression, not simply being sad. And episodes of clinical depression can just happen, but they can also absolutely be triggered by events in your life.

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Re: Avoiding depression during job hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:52 pm

What's keeping me alive is that my educational loan is a private loan with my parents as co-signers.

I think if I do the deed they'll come after my parents.

My parents are financially secure, but it would significantly dent their retirement savings -- in addition, of course, to causing them distress over my death.

If I didn't have parents and this loan were only attached to me, I think I would seriously consider it at this point.

Or maybe ride out the 3L vale of tears before committing to it.

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Re: Avoiding depression during job hunt

Postby sparty99 » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:What's keeping me alive is that my educational loan is a private loan with my parents as co-signers.

I think if I do the deed they'll come after my parents.

My parents are financially secure, but it would significantly dent their retirement savings -- in addition, of course, to causing them distress over my death.

If I didn't have parents and this loan were only attached to me, I think I would seriously consider it at this point.

Or maybe ride out the 3L vale of tears before committing to it.


You need to calm the f*ck down. Law school isn't even worth considering suicide talk. Are you serious? You need to start applying to non-legal jobs and market your J.D. to employers. There are many jobs with the government that like ADVANCED DEGREES. Some even want J.D. For example, correctional officer. Consulate gigs. It's time you look outside the legal bubble.

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Re: Avoiding depression during job hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:05 pm

Liam wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I agree with the poster above that depression doesn't respond to "rational" logic, though. That's why it's depression.

I don't disagree, but even within a depressed state most can recognize the consequences of their actions. According to psychologists, the average depressed person actually has a MORE accurate portrayal of reality than the average person.

I'm sure there's a study somewhere that says something like that, but that really really really doesn't jibe with any of my personal experiences with depression/people with depression. In any case, if you're suggesting there are rational reasons to commit suicide, I find that a really really distasteful attitude to take in a thread where people are struggling with depression. (If you're not suggesting that, I apologize, but I think it's one way your posts can be understood.)


You two seem to be conflating depression as an emotion with depression as a clinical condition, in a way that is counter-productive. Clinical depression, to my understanding, is not generally caused or triggered, but simply happens (and can, of course, latch onto particular negative aspects of one's life). If OP feels that he is experiencing clinical depression, rather than just feeling morose and unmotivated due to his heretofore lack of success, than OP should seek professional help, not waste time asking a bunch of amateur internet psychologists how to brighten his spirits.

This is very true. However, it hardly seems like a coincidence when people who have never had a quitter mentality or a single suicidal thought happen to start considering suicide just when they're 200k in debt with a bleak future. Obviously some people have more of a predisposition to evolve from extremely stressed out into depression than others, but these people likely aren't irrational.

Depression generally forms when people feel as though they need something to be happy, they lack that something and feel hopeless they will ever get that something.

This is why I said why somebody striking out can factor in. Have bad grades? Okay, good grades may be attainable. Bad interviewer? Maybe interviewing skills are attainable. When the problem is you, and nothing else it seems much bleaker.

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Re: Avoiding depression during job hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:08 pm

The biggest mistake I made was not going through with taking the police test. Cops get criticized for being racist and trigger happy, but they are much less discriminatory than law firms who are looking for a type, and a disability or something immediately disqualifies you. Lord knows if it wasn't hip to hire racially diverse attorneys, minorities would still be uniformly cast aside. Police are paid well, are mostly not assholes, have an easier work schedule and if you have the IQ to break a 170 would have the IQ to ace the tests you need to advance.

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Re: Avoiding depression during job hunt

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:This is very true. However, it hardly seems like a coincidence when people who have never had a quitter mentality or a single suicidal thought happen to start considering suicide just when they're 200k in debt with a bleak future. Obviously some people have more of a predisposition to evolve from extremely stressed out into depression than others, but these people likely aren't irrational.

Depression generally forms when people feel as though they need something to be happy, they lack that something and feel hopeless they will ever get that something.

This is why I said why somebody striking out can factor in. Have bad grades? Okay, good grades may be attainable. Bad interviewer? Maybe interviewing skills are attainable. When the problem is you, and nothing else it seems much bleaker.

See, I don't agree with most of this. Saying the people in this thread never had a "quitter" mentality or a suicidal thought before dealing with job problems is a complete assumption - you don't know their mental health histories. For those whom your statement is accurate, I'd bet some of them are people who've never had to deal with significant failure before (they did well enough in college/the LSAT to get into a good LS, for instance), and that can be very difficult to handle for the first time, especially when the stakes are so high. I also think your "depression generally forms..." statement is completely wrong - for one thing, there's a lot more about brain chemical and mechanics that needs to be taken into account. Bluntly, not everyone has the same reaction to problems getting a job - even if it's frustrating and saddening to probably everyone, that doesn't mean everyone ends up depressed.

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Re: Avoiding depression during job hunt

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:24 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:This is very true. However, it hardly seems like a coincidence when people who have never had a quitter mentality or a single suicidal thought happen to start considering suicide just when they're 200k in debt with a bleak future. Obviously some people have more of a predisposition to evolve from extremely stressed out into depression than others, but these people likely aren't irrational.

Depression generally forms when people feel as though they need something to be happy, they lack that something and feel hopeless they will ever get that something.

This is why I said why somebody striking out can factor in. Have bad grades? Okay, good grades may be attainable. Bad interviewer? Maybe interviewing skills are attainable. When the problem is you, and nothing else it seems much bleaker.

See, I don't agree with most of this. Saying the people in this thread never had a "quitter" mentality or a suicidal thought before dealing with job problems is a complete assumption - you don't know their mental health histories. For those whom your statement is accurate, I'd bet some of them are people who've never had to deal with significant failure before (they did well enough in college/the LSAT to get into a good LS, for instance), and that can be very difficult to handle for the first time, especially when the stakes are so high. I also think your "depression generally forms..." statement is completely wrong - for one thing, there's a lot more about brain chemical and mechanics that needs to be taken into account. Bluntly, not everyone has the same reaction to problems getting a job - even if it's frustrating and saddening to probably everyone, that doesn't mean everyone ends up depressed.

That's all true.

The one thing that makes this different is getting a 140 on the LSAT doesn't really have disastrous consequences if you react intelligently, and try to think of a different field. I guess law school is the same if your parents are wealthy. If people are becoming suicidal because people won't find them special then it's less rational. If people become deeply depressed because they realize there's a very good chance they'll never be able to afford health insurance or own a home, it's different.




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