Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

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rad lulz
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Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby rad lulz » Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So going by this logic, those who struck out at OCI, which I would say is the majority of my 2L class (85%+), will not find lucrative legal employment?

If you strike out at OCI and didn't mail a whole ago, if you're just starting to mail now, your chances ares slim of getting that large firm job, which probably means you won't have lucrative 100k+ employment at graduation. That said, that doesn't mean you shouldn't keep mailing even now.

Anonymous User
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Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:37 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
mushybrain wrote:And how often does that even happen? The only bites I got while I was mass mailing were still screeners... I just had to go to their office for them instead of them coming to me like OCI.

Back in my day I got a lot of straight to CBs from mass mail. Like 3 of em. Then again, I mailed before OCI...


Hey Rad,

OP here.

I have been mass mailing firms, mainly mid-size firms, for the past few weeks. And I've started to set up lunches with partners.

A lot of them who have gotten back to me have stated that "at this time we're not currently looking to hire 2L law clerks."

How should I take that? Does that legitimately mean that they haven't started to look for 2L law clerks, or is that basically a "we're not hiring period, stop bothering us."

Can't really say for sure. Sometimes those missile firms hire on the same timeline as the large firms. Those people are probably done or close to it. Sometime they hire later in the fall. Sometimes they hire in the spring. It's hard to say.



God, it just feels that everything is in the air, and all of this waiting kills.

I know things aren't as cheery as OCS portrays them to be. From personal knowledge, I know some mid-size firms already have their clerks for the summer, while others either have not posted, or aren't yet interested in hiring clerks.

I've been very fortunate that my parents have been supporting me throughout law school, so I'll be graduating with about $100,000 in debt. Which is apparently a manageable debt load, compared to my classmates who already have $150,000 in loans.

Anonymous User
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Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:07 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So going by this logic, those who struck out at OCI, which I would say is the majority of my 2L class (85%+), will not find lucrative legal employment?

If you strike out at OCI and didn't mail a whole ago, if you're just starting to mail now, your chances ares slim of getting that large firm job, which probably means you won't have lucrative 100k+ employment at graduation. That said, that doesn't mean you shouldn't keep mailing even now.


I really don't think the timing of mailing makes a difference. If the firm doesn't want you they don't want you and vice versa. I mailed a ton of places in July and early August and got nothing. Friend of mine mailed one of them two weeks ago and got a callback. I followed up and said i was still interested. no response. GPAs are the same.

its not like the guy who mass mailed in late july but still hasn't heard anything is in a better position than someone who started a month or more later. although at this point class sizes are filled/filling up.

Anonymous User
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Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So going by this logic, those who struck out at OCI, which I would say is the majority of my 2L class (85%+), will not find lucrative legal employment?

If you strike out at OCI and didn't mail a whole ago, if you're just starting to mail now, your chances ares slim of getting that large firm job, which probably means you won't have lucrative 100k+ employment at graduation. That said, that doesn't mean you shouldn't keep mailing even now.


I really don't think the timing of mailing makes a difference. If the firm doesn't want you they don't want you and vice versa. I mailed a ton of places in July and early August and got nothing. Friend of mine mailed one of them two weeks ago and got a callback. I followed up and said i was still interested. no response. GPAs are the same.


its not like the guy who mass mailed in late july but still hasn't heard anything is in a better position than someone who started a month or more later. although at this point class sizes are filled/filling up.



I understand that my chances at biglaw are very slim.

And, after reading some of the messages on this thread, chances at mid-size firms are done too.

Damnit.

Anonymous User
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:33 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
mushybrain wrote:And how often does that even happen? The only bites I got while I was mass mailing were still screeners... I just had to go to their office for them instead of them coming to me like OCI.

Back in my day I got a lot of straight to CBs from mass mail. Like 3 of em. Then again, I mailed before OCI...


Hey Rad,

OP here.

I have been mass mailing firms, mainly mid-size firms, for the past few weeks. And I've started to set up lunches with partners.

A lot of them who have gotten back to me have stated that "at this time we're not currently looking to hire 2L law clerks."

How should I take that? Does that legitimately mean that they haven't started to look for 2L law clerks, or is that basically a "we're not hiring period, stop bothering us."

Can't really say for sure. Sometimes those missile firms hire on the same timeline as the large firms. Those people are probably done or close to it. Sometime they hire later in the fall. Sometimes they hire in the spring. It's hard to say.


I've received some that say they aren't hiring/aren't in a position to hire, some that say they are not sure yet but will keep my application in case they do, and others that say thanks for your interest but we think there is someone better for us (and some interest, but those are different). IME, it seems that when there is a chance later or when they hire later, they usually are pretty clear about it. For the ones that say 'we aren't currently looking,' I usually take that to mean that the firm isn't hiring anyone for next summer - at the very least, they clearly aren't hiring me.

rad lulz
Posts: 9844
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:53 pm

Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby rad lulz » Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So going by this logic, those who struck out at OCI, which I would say is the majority of my 2L class (85%+), will not find lucrative legal employment?

If you strike out at OCI and didn't mail a whole ago, if you're just starting to mail now, your chances ares slim of getting that large firm job, which probably means you won't have lucrative 100k+ employment at graduation. That said, that doesn't mean you shouldn't keep mailing even now.


I really don't think the timing of mailing makes a difference. If the firm doesn't want you they don't want you and vice versa. I mailed a ton of places in July and early August and got nothing. Friend of mine mailed one of them two weeks ago and got a callback. I followed up and said i was still interested. no response. GPAs are the same.

its not like the guy who mass mailed in late july but still hasn't heard anything is in a better position than someone who started a month or more later. although at this point class sizes are filled/filling up.

Yeah my point was that class sizes are fillin up.

Anonymous User
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:38 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So going by this logic, those who struck out at OCI, which I would say is the majority of my 2L class (85%+), will not find lucrative legal employment?

If you strike out at OCI and didn't mail a whole ago, if you're just starting to mail now, your chances ares slim of getting that large firm job, which probably means you won't have lucrative 100k+ employment at graduation. That said, that doesn't mean you shouldn't keep mailing even now.


I really don't think the timing of mailing makes a difference. If the firm doesn't want you they don't want you and vice versa. I mailed a ton of places in July and early August and got nothing. Friend of mine mailed one of them two weeks ago and got a callback. I followed up and said i was still interested. no response. GPAs are the same.

its not like the guy who mass mailed in late july but still hasn't heard anything is in a better position than someone who started a month or more later. although at this point class sizes are filled/filling up.

Yeah my point was that class sizes are fillin up.


Hi Rad,

OP again.

I really like your posts. Solid insight and advice.

In addition, aside from mass-mailing and networking, what else should I be doing?

My worry is that with my credentials, no firm, regardless of its ranking will give me even a second look through mass-mailing.

I go to a T20, top 1/3ish.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273479
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:19 pm

It's not glamorous but mid-szied firms aren't the only firms left...there's TONS of small law firms especially in major markets. No they are not easy to find and no you won't make $100k a year BUT if all you want to do is work at a firm then you should give them a shot. Think family law, personal injury, BORING, not glamorous law with no client dinners and no expense account. There's also very solid boutique firms if you're interested in a specific area like art law.

No one likes the word non-profit but if you're not drowning in debt then it's doable. Especially legal aid since they make "lawyer-poor" salary (as opposed to actual poor).

If all else fails, look into a JD preferred job like compliance (JP Morgan needs those people like woah--have you read the news recently??) or something in a government agency.

Anonymous User
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:40 pm

I'm still mass-mailing Vault firms. Targeting D.C./Chicago area.

But with my credentials--again T20, URM, top 35%, secondary journal--I don't even know if it's worth it.

I'll still do it though. But if I do get something through all of this mass-mailing, it'll be basically blind luck.

Anonymous User
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:10 pm

While odds are not great for biglaw compared to OCIs, don't give up. I'm just now hearing back from many of the MMs I sent out over the past few weeks, (3 interview requests this week alone) so if you started massmailing in september, its not over yet. There are also still some well regarded firms - into V20 - that had straight-up yield issues and are conducting interviews/accepting resumes through this week. mind, for these firms it is for just a few spots each that they failed to fill, and mostly outside of major markets, but still. The biglaw dream might not be as clearly within reach as it was during OCIs, but don't let anyone, tell you its over until it is actually over.

I will say that the DC market is probably not where you want to focus at this point for Biglaw, as the most recent interview I know of there was 2 weeks ago, and Vault is not the best metric outside of firms with a serious NY presence.

Anonymous User
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:While odds are not great for biglaw compared to OCIs, don't give up. I'm just now hearing back from many of the MMs I sent out over the past few weeks, (3 interview requests this week alone) so if you started massmailing in september, its not over yet. There are also still some well regarded firms - into V20 - that had straight-up yield issues and are conducting interviews/accepting resumes through this week. mind, for these firms it is for just a few spots each that they failed to fill, and mostly outside of major markets, but still. The biglaw dream might not be as clearly within reach as it was during OCIs, but don't let anyone, tell you its over until it is actually over.

I will say that the DC market is probably not where you want to focus at this point for Biglaw, as the most recent interview I know of there was 2 weeks ago, and Vault is not the best metric outside of firms with a serious NY presence.


What markets would you recommend I target?

rad lulz
Posts: 9844
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:53 pm

Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby rad lulz » Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:05 am

Anonymous User wrote:Hi Rad,

OP again.

I really like your posts. Solid insight and advice.

In addition, aside from mass-mailing and networking, what else should I be doing?

My worry is that with my credentials, no firm, regardless of its ranking will give me even a second look through mass-mailing.

I go to a T20, top 1/3ish.

That's basically what you do

Find firms, repeat

Maybe check w CSO and see if they have something for you but they probably dont

Anonymous User
Posts: 273479
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:08 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:While odds are not great for biglaw compared to OCIs, don't give up. I'm just now hearing back from many of the MMs I sent out over the past few weeks, (3 interview requests this week alone) so if you started massmailing in september, its not over yet. There are also still some well regarded firms - into V20 - that had straight-up yield issues and are conducting interviews/accepting resumes through this week. mind, for these firms it is for just a few spots each that they failed to fill, and mostly outside of major markets, but still. The biglaw dream might not be as clearly within reach as it was during OCIs, but don't let anyone, tell you its over until it is actually over.

I will say that the DC market is probably not where you want to focus at this point for Biglaw, as the most recent interview I know of there was 2 weeks ago, and Vault is not the best metric outside of firms with a serious NY presence.


What markets would you recommend I target?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Un ... rban_areas

Start with that list. Cross off cities you've targeted already or you wouldn't want to live in, and prioritize them for later. Outside of NYC/DC/LA/Chi, they will want to know why that city. If you wouldn't actually be ok living there, you probably won't be able to convince them otherwise. Cities that have firms come to your school a lot are better - it means your school has a reputation there. Use NALP where applicable, as it speeds mass mailing. It is also helpful in reordering that list to avoid cities without as much legal work, but with some exceptions that roughly follows urban population, although places like charlotte and austin are better than mere population hubs like baltimore (Though hiring is still going on in baltimore, too!). You can also approach this by thinking about what sort of industry you would like to work with, and where that can be found. (Energy? Texas or Pennsylvania!) I had my reasons for that firm/city within the first three sentences, as they may not read past that.




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