Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

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Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:35 pm

So, I am hearing a lot of people from my school (T20) have struck out at OCI.

Some are now seriously considering dropping out to avoid more debt. One person has already dropped out, citing striking out of OCI as the main reason.

The OCS says how OCI is only one way for 2L summer employment. And how striking at OCI is not uncommon.

Are my classmates overreacting, or is OCS not telling us the truth?

rad lulz
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Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby rad lulz » Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So, I am hearing a lot of people from my school (T20) have struck out at OCI.

Some are now seriously considering dropping out to avoid more debt. One person has already dropped out, citing striking out of OCI as the main reason.

The OCS says how OCI is only one way for 2L summer employment. And how striking at OCI is not uncommon.

Are my classmates overreacting, or is OCS not telling us the truth?

I mean yeah there are other ways to get a 2L summer job but after OCI season is done, all the big firms are done for the year pretty much

So there's that

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goldeneye
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Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby goldeneye » Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:40 pm

Oci is by far the easiest way. Employers are coming to campus with the intention to hire students. Anything beyond that is much more difficult. Getting a job from mass mail is not impossible but the odds are reduced.

And oci tells you that because the school needs your tuition dollars, and partly because most hiring doesn't happen until youve passed the bar.

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Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:42 pm

^ Yeah, I'm definitely feeling the stress/anxiety.

Am I foolish in thinking that it's still possible to get a 2L law clerk/SA position by simply applying through Symplicity, and mass-mailing?

rad lulz
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Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby rad lulz » Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:^ Yeah, I'm definitely feeling the stress/anxiety.

Am I foolish in thinking that it's still possible to get a 2L law clerk/SA position by simply applying through Symplicity, and mass-mailing?

Ideally you should have been mass mailing back in late july

Large markets are beginning to be done around now or have a bunch of outstanding offers

Secondary markets you have ties to are probably still looking, probably midsize firms

But yeah a lot of the shit is done or basically done (ie class not filled but done w CBs)

edit: that doesnt mean you shouldnt mail because, i mean, what the hell else are you gonna do

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Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:49 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:^ Yeah, I'm definitely feeling the stress/anxiety.

Am I foolish in thinking that it's still possible to get a 2L law clerk/SA position by simply applying through Symplicity, and mass-mailing?

Ideally you should have been mass mailing back in late july

Large markets are beginning to be done around now or have a bunch of outstanding offers

Secondary markets you have ties to are probably still looking, probably midsize firms

But yeah a lot of the shit is done or basically done (ie class not filled but done w CBs)

edit: that doesnt mean you shouldnt mail because, i mean, what the hell else are you gonna do


I understand that the big-law ship for me, at least for 2L OCI, has sailed.

I have started to reach out to mid-size firms, and contacting alumni at those firms as well.

I've been mass-mailing each day for 2-3 hours.

Nothing has really turned up yet.

Some of my classmates have done nothing since OCI, and I've been hustling every day. But I am not getting positive net results, so it feels as if I have accomplished as much as my classmates who have done nothing.

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Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:49 pm

I have a friend who struck out but got off the waitlist at a big law firm in April. So you never know.

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Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:00 pm

I'm pretty sure that when OCS tells you it's not the only way to get a job, they mean any type of job and not big law. If you aren't looking for biglaw, then I'm sure you'll find something for the summer.

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Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm pretty sure that when OCS tells you it's not the only way to get a job, they mean any type of job and not big law. If you aren't looking for biglaw, then I'm sure you'll find something for the summer.


Ahhh.

I am actually very interested in joining a mid-size firm.

I understand that mid-size firms--for the most part at least--will not pay 6 figures out of law school.

But I am really just hoping for a decent paying gig, with good benefits. For my market, mid-size firms pay anywhere from $55,500 to $110,000.

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Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I have a friend who struck out but got off the waitlist at a big law firm in April. So you never know.



Big firms keep a waitlist until April? Why? It seems unlikely that too many people decline SA offers at that point.

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Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I have a friend who struck out but got off the waitlist at a big law firm in April. So you never know.



Big firms keep a waitlist until April? Why? It seems unlikely that too many people decline SA offers at that point.


I'm also curious about this.

So, it's basically improbable that a big law firm would open back up callbacks if a lot of their offers have been rejected? It's more likely that they just have a large enough waitlist, and they'll fill their summer class that way?

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Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:21 pm

I got an in-house gig in March/April. The money wasn't big law, but it was like $1k a week in a cool city.

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Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I got an in-house gig in March/April. The money wasn't big law, but it was like $1k a week in a cool city.


Does that job lead to a full-time offer after law school?

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Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:29 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm pretty sure that when OCS tells you it's not the only way to get a job, they mean any type of job and not big law. If you aren't looking for biglaw, then I'm sure you'll find something for the summer.


Ahhh.

I am actually very interested in joining a mid-size firm.

I understand that mid-size firms--for the most part at least--will not pay 6 figures out of law school.

But I am really just hoping for a decent paying gig, with good benefits. For my market, mid-size firms pay anywhere from $55,500 to $110,000.


Don't get your hopes up. I would say that most of these "midlaw" firms don't have summer programs at all, and if they do they probably hire 1-2 SA's maximum. You almost certainly won't land one of these positions coming out of a T20 without nearly perfect grades and rock-solid ties and even then it's no guarantee. I assume you've seen the infamous bimodal salary distribution chart? There is a reason that there is almost nothing between $160k and $40k. Realistically if you miss the biglaw boat at OCI your best bet at finding legal employment is some kind of doc review or shitlaw after you pass the bar. If you're not okay with that you should give some serious thought to dropping out now. I definitely would not recommend racking up tens of thousands of additional debt in hopes of landing a mythical midlaw SA because you will almost certainly lose that gamble.

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simpleAs
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Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby simpleAs » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:04 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm pretty sure that when OCS tells you it's not the only way to get a job, they mean any type of job and not big law. If you aren't looking for biglaw, then I'm sure you'll find something for the summer.


Ahhh.

I am actually very interested in joining a mid-size firm.

I understand that mid-size firms--for the most part at least--will not pay 6 figures out of law school.

But I am really just hoping for a decent paying gig, with good benefits. For my market, mid-size firms pay anywhere from $55,500 to $110,000.


Don't get your hopes up. I would say that most of these "midlaw" firms don't have summer programs at all, and if they do they probably hire 1-2 SA's maximum. You almost certainly won't land one of these positions coming out of a T20 without nearly perfect grades and rock-solid ties and even then it's no guarantee. I assume you've seen the infamous bimodal salary distribution chart? There is a reason that there is almost nothing between $160k and $40k. Realistically if you miss the biglaw boat at OCI your best bet at finding legal employment is some kind of doc review or shitlaw after you pass the bar. If you're not okay with that you should give some serious thought to dropping out now. I definitely would not recommend racking up tens of thousands of additional debt in hopes of landing a mythical midlaw SA because you will almost certainly lose that gamble.


Secondary biglaw paying somewhere from 80-145k definitely exists. For example, if you look at firms in a state like Ohio, there are regional firms (or satellite offices of national firms) with 100+ attorneys across Cleveland, Columbus, and Cincinnati. You can find these through the NALP directory, NLJ 350, and resume launchpad. Market pay starts around $90-100k and goes up to 145 with Jones Day.

Speaking from experience this cycle, a T20 student with strong ties and good grades will have a shot at mailing firms like this. You'll be competing with students from a few local schools and dealing with a smaller class size (2-10 SAs), but job outcome really isn't as clear cut as $40k vs. $160k if you look beyond NYC. It will be trickier if OP is from a major market; but in any case it would be worthwhile to send targeted mailings to any such firms you can find in places (first) where you have any communicable ties and (second) anywhere you would be willing to live. Because it is late in the game, I would recommend supplementing this with networking (contacting and meeting with any attorneys you know, or alums you can find) and expressing as much interest as possible (writing firm or at least geographic/practice area-specific cover letters or e-mail bodies; following up your resume sends with a phone call to recruiting).

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Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:35 am

simpleAs wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm pretty sure that when OCS tells you it's not the only way to get a job, they mean any type of job and not big law. If you aren't looking for biglaw, then I'm sure you'll find something for the summer.


Ahhh.

I am actually very interested in joining a mid-size firm.

I understand that mid-size firms--for the most part at least--will not pay 6 figures out of law school.

But I am really just hoping for a decent paying gig, with good benefits. For my market, mid-size firms pay anywhere from $55,500 to $110,000.


Don't get your hopes up. I would say that most of these "midlaw" firms don't have summer programs at all, and if they do they probably hire 1-2 SA's maximum. You almost certainly won't land one of these positions coming out of a T20 without nearly perfect grades and rock-solid ties and even then it's no guarantee. I assume you've seen the infamous bimodal salary distribution chart? There is a reason that there is almost nothing between $160k and $40k. Realistically if you miss the biglaw boat at OCI your best bet at finding legal employment is some kind of doc review or shitlaw after you pass the bar. If you're not okay with that you should give some serious thought to dropping out now. I definitely would not recommend racking up tens of thousands of additional debt in hopes of landing a mythical midlaw SA because you will almost certainly lose that gamble.


Secondary biglaw paying somewhere from 80-145k definitely exists. For example, if you look at firms in a state like Ohio, there are regional firms (or satellite offices of national firms) with 100+ attorneys across Cleveland, Columbus, and Cincinnati. You can find these through the NALP directory, NLJ 350, and resume launchpad. Market pay starts around $90-100k and goes up to 145 with Jones Day.

Speaking from experience this cycle, a T20 student with strong ties and good grades will have a shot at mailing firms like this. You'll be competing with students from a few local schools and dealing with a smaller class size (2-10 SAs), but job outcome really isn't as clear cut as $40k vs. $160k if you look beyond NYC. It will be trickier if OP is from a major market; but in any case it would be worthwhile to send targeted mailings to any such firms you can find in places (first) where you have any communicable ties and (second) anywhere you would be willing to live. Because it is late in the game, I would recommend supplementing this with networking (contacting and meeting with any attorneys you know, or alums you can find) and expressing as much interest as possible (writing firm or at least geographic/practice area-specific cover letters or e-mail bodies; following up your resume sends with a phone call to recruiting).


OP here.

I am noticing such a strong split on how to go about my job search. My OCS is portraying some ideal world out there where there are 2L law clerk/SA positions in my market that hire later in the cycle. Some posters on here are saying they do exist, but will entail a lot of hustling. And others are saying how they do exist, but are very hard to secure.

I am honestly struggling a bit on how to approach things from here.

At the very least though, I plan on continuing to mass-mail my secondary market (Minneapolis/St. Paul) and network my ass off until I land something.

Thank you all.

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Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:25 am

I wish I knew this a few months back, but my impression is that relying on career services for job advice is like relying on pre-law advisers for law school application advice. Just hustle on your own, and keep mass mailing. If you can get people at large firms to like you opportunities will open themselves up. There is an argument that mass mailing this late in the game is better than OCI because if you get a bite at a major firm you may bypass the screening stage, and just face one obstacle before getting an offer instead of two.

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Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby rad lulz » Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:34 am

Anonymous User wrote:I wish I knew this a few months back, but my impression is that relying on career services for job advice is like relying on pre-law advisers for law school application advice. Just hustle on your own, and keep mass mailing. If you can get people at large firms to like you opportunities will open themselves up. There is an argument that mass mailing this late in the game is better than OCI because if you get a bite at a major firm you may bypass the screening stage, and just face one obstacle before getting an offer instead of two.

Lol that's not a great argument

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Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:52 am

rad lulz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I wish I knew this a few months back, but my impression is that relying on career services for job advice is like relying on pre-law advisers for law school application advice. Just hustle on your own, and keep mass mailing. If you can get people at large firms to like you opportunities will open themselves up. There is an argument that mass mailing this late in the game is better than OCI because if you get a bite at a major firm you may bypass the screening stage, and just face one obstacle before getting an offer instead of two.

Lol that's not a great argument


OP here.

I'm slowly feeling the frustration of how OCS keeps on saying, "Oh, a ton of firms open up applications on Symplicity in Oct./Nov."

I don't know if I'm just being impatient or what.

But being that a ton of 2Ls at my T20 have not secured 2L summer employment, I have feeling that those later job postings will be inundated as well with applications.

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Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby mushybrain » Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:54 am

And how often does that even happen? The only bites I got while I was mass mailing were still screeners... I just had to go to their office for them instead of them coming to me like OCI.

rad lulz
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Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby rad lulz » Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:05 pm

mushybrain wrote:And how often does that even happen? The only bites I got while I was mass mailing were still screeners... I just had to go to their office for them instead of them coming to me like OCI.

Back in my day I got a lot of straight to CBs from mass mail. Like 3 of em. Then again, I mailed before OCI...

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Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:51 pm

rad lulz wrote:
mushybrain wrote:And how often does that even happen? The only bites I got while I was mass mailing were still screeners... I just had to go to their office for them instead of them coming to me like OCI.

Back in my day I got a lot of straight to CBs from mass mail. Like 3 of em. Then again, I mailed before OCI...


Hey Rad,

OP here.

I have been mass mailing firms, mainly mid-size firms, for the past few weeks. And I've started to set up lunches with partners.

A lot of them who have gotten back to me have stated that "at this time we're not currently looking to hire 2L law clerks."

How should I take that? Does that legitimately mean that they haven't started to look for 2L law clerks, or is that basically a "we're not hiring period, stop bothering us."

Anonymous User
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Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:52 pm

simpleAs wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm pretty sure that when OCS tells you it's not the only way to get a job, they mean any type of job and not big law. If you aren't looking for biglaw, then I'm sure you'll find something for the summer.


Ahhh.

I am actually very interested in joining a mid-size firm.

I understand that mid-size firms--for the most part at least--will not pay 6 figures out of law school.

But I am really just hoping for a decent paying gig, with good benefits. For my market, mid-size firms pay anywhere from $55,500 to $110,000.


Don't get your hopes up. I would say that most of these "midlaw" firms don't have summer programs at all, and if they do they probably hire 1-2 SA's maximum. You almost certainly won't land one of these positions coming out of a T20 without nearly perfect grades and rock-solid ties and even then it's no guarantee. I assume you've seen the infamous bimodal salary distribution chart? There is a reason that there is almost nothing between $160k and $40k. Realistically if you miss the biglaw boat at OCI your best bet at finding legal employment is some kind of doc review or shitlaw after you pass the bar. If you're not okay with that you should give some serious thought to dropping out now. I definitely would not recommend racking up tens of thousands of additional debt in hopes of landing a mythical midlaw SA because you will almost certainly lose that gamble.


Secondary biglaw paying somewhere from 80-145k definitely exists. For example, if you look at firms in a state like Ohio, there are regional firms (or satellite offices of national firms) with 100+ attorneys across Cleveland, Columbus, and Cincinnati. You can find these through the NALP directory, NLJ 350, and resume launchpad. Market pay starts around $90-100k and goes up to 145 with Jones Day.

Speaking from experience this cycle, a T20 student with strong ties and good grades will have a shot at mailing firms like this. You'll be competing with students from a few local schools and dealing with a smaller class size (2-10 SAs), but job outcome really isn't as clear cut as $40k vs. $160k if you look beyond NYC. It will be trickier if OP is from a major market; but in any case it would be worthwhile to send targeted mailings to any such firms you can find in places (first) where you have any communicable ties and (second) anywhere you would be willing to live. Because it is late in the game, I would recommend supplementing this with networking (contacting and meeting with any attorneys you know, or alums you can find) and expressing as much interest as possible (writing firm or at least geographic/practice area-specific cover letters or e-mail bodies; following up your resume sends with a phone call to recruiting).


Yes, these midlaw jobs exist. SCOTUS clerkships and Skadden fellowships also exist, but the OP isn't likely to get those, either. I'm a student at HYS. I know of people who struck out at OCI who mass mailed mid-sized firms in their home markets for months with no bites. These people are now deciding between shitlaw and non-legal careers. If tuition cannot be refunded at this point, sure, carpet bomb all the mid-sized firms in any market where you don't have ties. Or try to make up ties to markets where you have no ties. You have nothing to lose at this point. But know in advance that the chances of actually landing a SA (much less a permanent offer) at one of these firms is very low. And do not incur a single additional dollar of debt unless you are willing to take a shitlaw or doc review job after you pass the bar exam. If you're not, then drop out as soon as your next tuition payment is due.

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Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:04 pm

Yes, these midlaw jobs exist. SCOTUS clerkships and Skadden fellowships also exist, but the OP isn't likely to get those, either. I'm a student at HYS. I know of people who struck out at OCI who mass mailed mid-sized firms in their home markets for months with no bites. These people are now deciding between shitlaw and non-legal careers. If tuition cannot be refunded at this point, sure, carpet bomb all the mid-sized firms in any market where you don't have ties. Or try to make up ties to markets where you have no ties. You have nothing to lose at this point. But know in advance that the chances of actually landing a SA (much less a permanent offer) at one of these firms is very low. And do not incur a single additional dollar of debt unless you are willing to take a shitlaw or doc review job after you pass the bar exam. If you're not, then drop out as soon as your next tuition payment is due.[/quote]

So going by this logic, those who struck out at OCI, which I would say is the majority of my 2L class (85%+), will not find lucrative legal employment?

rad lulz
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Re: Striking out at OCI --> Chance of 2L Summer Employment

Postby rad lulz » Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
mushybrain wrote:And how often does that even happen? The only bites I got while I was mass mailing were still screeners... I just had to go to their office for them instead of them coming to me like OCI.

Back in my day I got a lot of straight to CBs from mass mail. Like 3 of em. Then again, I mailed before OCI...


Hey Rad,

OP here.

I have been mass mailing firms, mainly mid-size firms, for the past few weeks. And I've started to set up lunches with partners.

A lot of them who have gotten back to me have stated that "at this time we're not currently looking to hire 2L law clerks."

How should I take that? Does that legitimately mean that they haven't started to look for 2L law clerks, or is that basically a "we're not hiring period, stop bothering us."

Can't really say for sure. Sometimes those missile firms hire on the same timeline as the large firms. Those people are probably done or close to it. Sometime they hire later in the fall. Sometimes they hire in the spring. It's hard to say.




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