1L SA- No Offer, No Luck with OCI

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Re: 1L SA- No Offer, No Luck with OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm the poster who has a 1L SA that was known from the start not to turn into an offer. I'm worried that firms just assume that I was no-offered. I try to bring it up as much as possible, "they don't hire their 1L SAs and tell us to go elsewhere" but at this point I'm thinking maybe firms just think thats an excuse or a cover for a cold offer. Who would have thought that having a 1L SA would come to bite me in the ass.


I am continuously baffled at how law firms operate.

I'm assuming I simply am not in those recruiting meetings, and I do not know what to value in a candidate.

But you'd think that a 2L with 1L SA experience received: (1) great training, (2) formal writing experience and (3) excellent feedback on how to improve written/analytical skills.

A candidate with the above three to me seem much more attractive than a 2L without any of that experience.

Are new law firms basically assuming that the no-offered 1L cannot improve, and cannot sharpen his/her skills? That's a terrible and unfair assumption to make.

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Re: 1L SA- No Offer, No Luck with OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm the poster who has a 1L SA that was known from the start not to turn into an offer. I'm worried that firms just assume that I was no-offered. I try to bring it up as much as possible, "they don't hire their 1L SAs and tell us to go elsewhere" but at this point I'm thinking maybe firms just think thats an excuse or a cover for a cold offer. Who would have thought that having a 1L SA would come to bite me in the ass.


I am continuously baffled at how law firms operate.

I'm assuming I simply am not in those recruiting meetings, and I do not know what to value in a candidate.

But you'd think that a 2L with 1L SA experience received: (1) great training, (2) formal writing experience and (3) excellent feedback on how to improve written/analytical skills.

A candidate with the above three to me seem much more attractive than a 2L without any of that experience.

Are new law firms basically assuming that the no-offered 1L cannot improve, and cannot sharpen his/her skills? That's a terrible and unfair assumption to make.


I'm the original quote. My grades aren't bad, not great, but above median at a T10. 3+ years WE and a 1L SA. I've been struggling while K-JD's with slightly better grades than me are getting multiple offers. Experience counts for barely anything in my experience.

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Re: 1L SA- No Offer, No Luck with OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm the poster who has a 1L SA that was known from the start not to turn into an offer. I'm worried that firms just assume that I was no-offered. I try to bring it up as much as possible, "they don't hire their 1L SAs and tell us to go elsewhere" but at this point I'm thinking maybe firms just think thats an excuse or a cover for a cold offer. Who would have thought that having a 1L SA would come to bite me in the ass.


I am continuously baffled at how law firms operate.

I'm assuming I simply am not in those recruiting meetings, and I do not know what to value in a candidate.

But you'd think that a 2L with 1L SA experience received: (1) great training, (2) formal writing experience and (3) excellent feedback on how to improve written/analytical skills.

A candidate with the above three to me seem much more attractive than a 2L without any of that experience.

Are new law firms basically assuming that the no-offered 1L cannot improve, and cannot sharpen his/her skills? That's a terrible and unfair assumption to make.


I'm the original quote. My grades aren't bad, not great, but above median at a T10. 3+ years WE and a 1L SA. I've been struggling while K-JD's with slightly better grades than me are getting multiple offers. Experience counts for barely anything in my experience.


OP here.

Welp. You're at a T10, with decent grades. And you didn't receive a return offer because your firm simply does not give 1L return offers and you're running into walls.

This does not look very good for me.

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Re: 1L SA- No Offer, No Luck with OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:20 pm

One of the worst things so far about being no-offered is now listening to all of my 2L classmates strutting around talking about how "tired" they are because they have a ton of callbacks. And today I heard a conversation between three 2Ls who are trying to figure out a way to leverage their offers so they can get extra perks.

I am here struggling, constantly feeling anxious, feeling like a complete failure because I got no-offered, and here are these people strutting and not fully appreciating the amazing position they are in.

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Re: 1L SA- No Offer, No Luck with OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So getting no-offered as a 1L basically dooms your search for a 2L SA position?


I was no offered as a 1L for ambiguous "fit" reasons. Few firms asked about it during OCI and callbacks, and when they did I was able to honestly claim that I wasn't going back because I was no longer interested in that market. Only one CB asked me outright if I got an offer.

I ended up getting an offer from a NY V20, so you definitely aren't doomed. That said, I got dinged from several V10s that classmates with less W/E and equivalent or slightly worse grades got offers from. I'm a good interviewer and my CBs at those firms went well. I definitely have to wonder if they called my 1L firm to ask if I got an offer, and if that played a factor.

rad lulz
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Re: 1L SA- No Offer, No Luck with OCI

Postby rad lulz » Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:One of the worst things so far about being no-offered is now listening to all of my 2L classmates strutting around talking about how "tired" they are because they have a ton of callbacks. And today I heard a conversation between three 2Ls who are trying to figure out a way to leverage their offers so they can get extra perks.

I am here struggling, constantly feeling anxious, feeling like a complete failure because I got no-offered, and here are these people strutting and not fully appreciating the amazing position they are in.

Law students are the worst

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Re: 1L SA- No Offer, No Luck with OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:15 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:One of the worst things so far about being no-offered is now listening to all of my 2L classmates strutting around talking about how "tired" they are because they have a ton of callbacks. And today I heard a conversation between three 2Ls who are trying to figure out a way to leverage their offers so they can get extra perks.

I am here struggling, constantly feeling anxious, feeling like a complete failure because I got no-offered, and here are these people strutting and not fully appreciating the amazing position they are in.

Law students are the worst


I won't lie, I went into the bathroom, and was on the verge of tears. I managed to calm myself down.

But I felt an odd combination of frustration, anger, sadness and hopelessness.

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Re: 1L SA- No Offer, No Luck with OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:One of the worst things so far about being no-offered is now listening to all of my 2L classmates strutting around talking about how "tired" they are because they have a ton of callbacks. And today I heard a conversation between three 2Ls who are trying to figure out a way to leverage their offers so they can get extra perks.

I am here struggling, constantly feeling anxious, feeling like a complete failure because I got no-offered, and here are these people strutting and not fully appreciating the amazing position they are in.


I wasn't no-offered (didn't have a 1L SA), but I feel the same when I hear those conversations. I feel like many people (at least where I am) are nice and at least say they recognize they lucked out (because it's work and luck), but there are some (usually loud) people who just don't get that they are in amazing positions that a lot of others aren't in and wish we were.

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Re: 1L SA- No Offer, No Luck with OCI

Postby KidStuddi » Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:05 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm the poster who has a 1L SA that was known from the start not to turn into an offer. I'm worried that firms just assume that I was no-offered. I try to bring it up as much as possible, "they don't hire their 1L SAs and tell us to go elsewhere" but at this point I'm thinking maybe firms just think thats an excuse or a cover for a cold offer. Who would have thought that having a 1L SA would come to bite me in the ass.


I am continuously baffled at how law firms operate.

I'm assuming I simply am not in those recruiting meetings, and I do not know what to value in a candidate.

But you'd think that a 2L with 1L SA experience received: (1) great training, (2) formal writing experience and (3) excellent feedback on how to improve written/analytical skills.

A candidate with the above three to me seem much more attractive than a 2L without any of that experience.

Are new law firms basically assuming that the no-offered 1L cannot improve, and cannot sharpen his/her skills? That's a terrible and unfair assumption to make.


The flaw in your reasoning is that you assume that "training and experience" is relevant for entry-level hiring. I don't know where you got the idea that firms are hiring SA's based on these factors, but they aren't. If BigLaw hiring was concerned with training and experience, 3Ls, recent graduates, and laterals would be favored in hiring and this is objectively not the case. While previous work experience is often talked about as a desired characteristic, it's for professionalism / non-substantive reasons, not because the candidate has learned something about performing the actual day-to-day tasks of a junior associate. Firms are looking for moldable talent. This is also why there is an unstated understanding that older candidates are heavily disfavored.

A previous no-offer raises a red flag because, unless the firm doesn't bring you back for financial reasons, the firm is telling you and the world that you couldn't be molded to fit the firm's expectations over that 8-12 weeks. Whether it is an inability to improve work product to meet expectations or adapt your personality to meet expectations, it's the implasticity that presents the problem for the firms. They don't care if you know anything coming in the door, they just want you to be capable of learning what they want you to know and how they want you to act. If you couldn't do that somewhere else, why would a new firm assume you could do it with them?

Obviously it sucks that people who get no-offered might not get a second chance, but in a world where the majority of law students will never even get a first shot at BigLaw, I don't know why it's so hard for you to understand why firms operate this way.

Anonymous User
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Re: 1L SA- No Offer, No Luck with OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:58 am

this thread is problematic.

work experience is a HUGE plus in my experience (lower T14) and coming from personal experience, getting no-offered is not the end. i got three offers even after being no-offered from my 1L SA. it's all in your confidence, interview preparation, and ability to massage the no-offer. if you can swing the question right away, they don't get bogged down in why and don't even care to ask the question, so it's yours to characterize.

pm if you want details.

Anonymous User
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Re: 1L SA- No Offer, No Luck with OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:this thread is problematic.

work experience is a HUGE plus in my experience (lower T14) and coming from personal experience, getting no-offered is not the end. i got three offers even after being no-offered from my 1L SA. it's all in your confidence, interview preparation, and ability to massage the no-offer. if you can swing the question right away, they don't get bogged down in why and don't even care to ask the question, so it's yours to characterize.

pm if you want details.


Any advice you can give to this thread will be much appreciated.

Can you give us a brief rundown on how you approached the 1L SA no-offer when interviewing with new firms?

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bk1
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Re: 1L SA- No Offer, No Luck with OCI

Postby bk1 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:this thread is problematic.

work experience is a HUGE plus in my experience (lower T14) and coming from personal experience, getting no-offered is not the end. i got three offers even after being no-offered from my 1L SA. it's all in your confidence, interview preparation, and ability to massage the no-offer. if you can swing the question right away, they don't get bogged down in why and don't even care to ask the question, so it's yours to characterize.

pm if you want details.

Just fyi, people who post anonymously can't be PMed.

Anonymous User
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Re: 1L SA- No Offer, No Luck with OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:42 pm

nvm

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Re: 1L SA- No Offer, No Luck with OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:49 am

I cannot seem to find 1L SA return offer rates.

I had just assumed it was as high as 2L offer rates.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: 1L SA- No Offer, No Luck with OCI

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:57 am

Anonymous User wrote:I cannot seem to find 1L SA return offer rates.

I had just assumed it was as high as 2L offer rates.

Totally anecdotal, but I was under the impression it was much lower. A lot of 1L SAs don't seem to be intended to turn into permanent jobs.

NYstate
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Re: 1L SA- No Offer, No Luck with OCI

Postby NYstate » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:29 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I cannot seem to find 1L SA return offer rates.

I had just assumed it was as high as 2L offer rates.

Totally anecdotal, but I was under the impression it was much lower. A lot of 1L SAs don't seem to be intended to turn into permanent jobs.


Agreed. I thought the 1L SA was just a job. We don't have 1L SAs, most firms don't outside of a diversity program. I'm confused about why the 1L SA is such a big deal unless no one will give you a reference.

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Re: 1L SA- No Offer, No Luck with OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:36 am

In my experience talking to people who have had 1L SAs at traditional large law firms, most of them do seem give offers to return for 2L summer but won't consider you for a full time offer until after 2L summer. It is often easier to overcome a 1L no offer because firms are less likely to ask whether the person got an offer and many 1L SAs never intend to return to their 1L firm anyways which gives them an excuse for not going back there during 2L summer since returning to that firm isn't necessarily expected. But for 2Ls firms are more likely to ask whether a 2L got an offer and it is expected that most 2Ls will go back to their 2L firms post graduation.

Now this might be different outside of the major west/east coast markets that I am familiar with. They might do things differently in the South/TX.




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