Bankruptcy/Restructuring: Weil/K&E Chi/PW/STB/S&C/Milbank Forum

[Arbiter213]

Paul Weiss is not band 1 in restructuring (band 2 NY and nationwide). Not sure what the two posters above are looking at.

Why are people so bad at the internet?

http://www.chambers-associate.com/Law/FirmFeature/3642

[Anonymous User]

The specifics depend on where you start - junior work is a little different if its committee work v. debtor work v. creditor work v. M&A v. DIP work; its also different in a high leverage group compared to a low leverage group.

General principles (which frankly apply to any practice group): junior restructuring work, generally speaking, sucks, but IMO its a test of how reliable and careful you are. If you're asked to monitor a docket, don't miss anyting. If asked to do a notice or a first draft of a simple pleading, make sure you show thought in how you choose and update your precedent. Showing thought matters more than getting a right, in a sense. If you're running a document, turn comments with extreme care and make sure to get everything right. When you get a research assignment, be both thorough and concise; the art of it is to provide a short, clear response but to have it backed up with a lot of work that you can pull out when someone questions you. Be a good team player - restructuring will have all-hands moments with your whole team, for example prior to a first day hearing or a confirmation hearing in a case you're involved with - and you want to keep cool and be a steady hand senior folks can rely on at 1AM. If you're lucky enough to be in a firm that doesn't segregate restructuring folks on day one, try to get a couple of non-restructuring assignments so you can get a look-in on cap markets work and/or M&A work. Make yourself as well-rounded as possible.

Don't worry about impressing people. It's not necessary. Focus on not fucking up and being a good guy (or girl) to work with. Enough people will make mistakes that if you just play it conservative and don't make mistakes, you'll be on the right track. Mouth shut, eyes and ears open.

Have your secretary print the DBR for you every morning and read it - have a general idea of what's going on in other cases. Take cues on when to arrive to work from your team - don't be that dude showing up at 9:30 (which is normally perfectly fine) if the senior lawyers in your group are all in at 9AM. If its a small group, they'll notice you're there when they need you and you'll appear more responsive. Being perceived as responsive is good.

Start to learn the code, the lingo. It takes time to do this, but ultimately, if someone refs a key code provision by number - "when is the 503(b)(9) deadline?" - you should start getting to the point where you know what that means.

Do any of the restructuring associates have any advice on what a first year in a small restructuring group should do? I'd like to make a good first impression and avoid the typical newbie mistakes to the extent possible.

I also like that restructuring is a hybrid of corp/litigation and think that I'd be a good fit for doing corp and litigation. How do I develop both skill sets and express that interest to the firm?

Thanks, and sorry for the thread derail.

[2014]

Paul Weiss is not band 1 in restructuring (band 2 NY and nationwide). Not sure what the two posters above are looking at.

Why are people so bad at the internet?

http://www.chambers-associate.com/Law/FirmFeature/3642

To be fair:
http://www.chambersandpartners.com/usa/Editorial/253356 has them at band 2 nationwide, but even that chambers has them as band 1 NY so I can't completely defend the first quote haha.

[Old Gregg]

This is becoming a dumb argument.

[lawyerwannabe]

My bad. This site is so confusing.
http://www.chambersandpartners.com/USA/Editorial/43184

[jitsrenzo]

Thank you, that was quite helpful. Anyone else who wants to chime in or PM, please feel free.

The specifics depend on where you start - junior work is a little different if its committee work v. debtor work v. creditor work v. M&A v. DIP work; its also different in a high leverage group compared to a low leverage group.

General principles (which frankly apply to any practice group): junior restructuring work, generally speaking, sucks, but IMO its a test of how reliable and careful you are. If you're asked to monitor a docket, don't miss anyting. If asked to do a notice or a first draft of a simple pleading, make sure you show thought in how you choose and update your precedent. Showing thought matters more than getting a right, in a sense. If you're running a document, turn comments with extreme care and make sure to get everything right. When you get a research assignment, be both thorough and concise; the art of it is to provide a short, clear response but to have it backed up with a lot of work that you can pull out when someone questions you. Be a good team player - restructuring will have all-hands moments with your whole team, for example prior to a first day hearing or a confirmation hearing in a case you're involved with - and you want to keep cool and be a steady hand senior folks can rely on at 1AM. If you're lucky enough to be in a firm that doesn't segregate restructuring folks on day one, try to get a couple of non-restructuring assignments so you can get a look-in on cap markets work and/or M&A work. Make yourself as well-rounded as possible.

Don't worry about impressing people. It's not necessary. Focus on not fucking up and being a good guy (or girl) to work with. Enough people will make mistakes that if you just play it conservative and don't make mistakes, you'll be on the right track. Mouth shut, eyes and ears open.

Have your secretary print the DBR for you every morning and read it - have a general idea of what's going on in other cases. Take cues on when to arrive to work from your team - don't be that dude showing up at 9:30 (which is normally perfectly fine) if the senior lawyers in your group are all in at 9AM. If its a small group, they'll notice you're there when they need you and you'll appear more responsive. Being perceived as responsive is good.

Start to learn the code, the lingo. It takes time to do this, but ultimately, if someone refs a key code provision by number - "when is the 503(b)(9) deadline?" - you should start getting to the point where you know what that means.

[Arbiter213]

My bad. This site is so confusing.
http://www.chambersandpartners.com/USA/Editorial/43184

No idea how you found the old ones, but here you go:

http://www.chambersandpartners.com/USA/ ... 8#org_3642

This is becoming a dumb argument.

[Anonymous User]

The specifics depend on where you start - junior work is a little different if its committee work v. debtor work v. creditor work v. M&A v. DIP work; its also different in a high leverage group compared to a low leverage group.

General principles (which frankly apply to any practice group): junior restructuring work, generally speaking, sucks, but IMO its a test of how reliable and careful you are. If you're asked to monitor a docket, don't miss anyting. If asked to do a notice or a first draft of a simple pleading, make sure you show thought in how you choose and update your precedent. Showing thought matters more than getting a right, in a sense. If you're running a document, turn comments with extreme care and make sure to get everything right. When you get a research assignment, be both thorough and concise; the art of it is to provide a short, clear response but to have it backed up with a lot of work that you can pull out when someone questions you. Be a good team player - restructuring will have all-hands moments with your whole team, for example prior to a first day hearing or a confirmation hearing in a case you're involved with - and you want to keep cool and be a steady hand senior folks can rely on at 1AM. If you're lucky enough to be in a firm that doesn't segregate restructuring folks on day one, try to get a couple of non-restructuring assignments so you can get a look-in on cap markets work and/or M&A work. Make yourself as well-rounded as possible.

Don't worry about impressing people. It's not necessary. Focus on not fucking up and being a good guy (or girl) to work with. Enough people will make mistakes that if you just play it conservative and don't make mistakes, you'll be on the right track. Mouth shut, eyes and ears open.

Have your secretary print the DBR for you every morning and read it - have a general idea of what's going on in other cases. Take cues on when to arrive to work from your team - don't be that dude showing up at 9:30 (which is normally perfectly fine) if the senior lawyers in your group are all in at 9AM. If its a small group, they'll notice you're there when they need you and you'll appear more responsive. Being perceived as responsive is good.

Start to learn the code, the lingo. It takes time to do this, but ultimately, if someone refs a key code provision by number - "when is the 503(b)(9) deadline?" - you should start getting to the point where you know what that means.

[/quote]

At what point does a junior restructuring associate start to get more substantive assignments? 2 years? 3? Or whenever you prove yourself?

[Anonymous User]

Varies wildly based on firm culture and style. At a K&E/Weil/Skadden, it will be much longer than at a S&C/STB/Cleary type place. Big debtor work tends to be more leverage driven. But, of course, if you make it to the other side at, say, K&E (which is, IMO, the strongest of the big debtor firms right now, light years ahead of Weil and Skadden), then you have an army of minions at your disposal. The problem is that those big debtor restructuring groups are a bit like Thunderdome - even more so than a firm typically is.

At what point does a junior restructuring associate start to get more substantive assignments? 2 years? 3? Or whenever you prove yourself?

[Anonymous User]

Varies wildly based on firm culture and style. At a K&E/Weil/Skadden, it will be much longer than at a S&C/STB/Cleary type place. Big debtor work tends to be more leverage driven. But, of course, if you make it to the other side at, say, K&E (which is, IMO, the strongest of the big debtor firms right now, light years ahead of Weil and Skadden), then you have an army of minions at your disposal. The problem is that those big debtor restructuring groups are a bit like Thunderdome - even more so than a firm typically is.

At what point does a junior restructuring associate start to get more substantive assignments? 2 years? 3? Or whenever you prove yourself?

Slight caveat to this: juniors at K&E usually get the mid-market failed PE deals--so while you won't be doing substantive things on a huge debtor case until you're senior, you can do substantive work on smaller cases and there's a lot of them.

Source: heard from a K&E associate

[Anonymous User]

If you think that one of K&E's PE clients is letting them use a junior for substantive work on a portfolio company restructuring, then you deserve to go there and do claims objection work and lease diligence for 2 years. I've worked across K&E a few times, as has everyone else in the restructuring world, and the only time I've even heard a junior's voice is when the quote-unquote partner asked for a folder at a hearing. They have phenomenal deal flow, and i think it is entirely defensible to work there because of that, but it is not a place to go for substantive experience early on. You have to survive the gauntlet first.

Varies wildly based on firm culture and style. At a K&E/Weil/Skadden, it will be much longer than at a S&C/STB/Cleary type place. Big debtor work tends to be more leverage driven. But, of course, if you make it to the other side at, say, K&E (which is, IMO, the strongest of the big debtor firms right now, light years ahead of Weil and Skadden), then you have an army of minions at your disposal. The problem is that those big debtor restructuring groups are a bit like Thunderdome - even more so than a firm typically is.

At what point does a junior restructuring associate start to get more substantive assignments? 2 years? 3? Or whenever you prove yourself?

Slight caveat to this: juniors at K&E usually get the mid-market failed PE deals--so while you won't be doing substantive things on a huge debtor case until you're senior, you can do substantive work on smaller cases and there's a lot of them.

Source: heard from a K&E associate

[Anonymous User]

f you think that one of K&E's PE clients is letting them use a junior for substantive work

Yeah... our PE clients aren't really scouring the website and looking at the seniority of all attorneys on a matter (and if they do even see a glimpse of seniority, they'll see it at the end when they get the bill). They have a zillion better things to do.

[Anonymous User]

What big firms are still actively looking for bankruptcy/restructuring associates (vs. allowing summers to pick bankruptcy)? Or, put another way, what firms are growing their bankruptcy practice, if any?

[Anonymous User]

If you think that one of K&E's PE clients is letting them use a junior for substantive work on a portfolio company restructuring, then you deserve to go there and do claims objection work and lease diligence for 2 years. I've worked across K&E a few times, as has everyone else in the restructuring world, and the only time I've even heard a junior's voice is when the quote-unquote partner asked for a folder at a hearing. They have phenomenal deal flow, and i think it is entirely defensible to work there because of that, but it is not a place to go for substantive experience early on. You have to survive the gauntlet first.

This is objectively incorrect. I haven't been at K&E for a long time, but I know 2nd years who are routinely on the phone with the UST, other stakeholders, etc. Yeah, there is still the grunt work that you are going to have to do as a junior, but that is the case everywhere. Juniors are getting substantive work early though.

[Anonymous User]

What big firms are still actively looking for bankruptcy/restructuring associates (vs. allowing summers to pick bankruptcy)? Or, put another way, what firms are growing their bankruptcy practice, if any?

OP here. Offers at all of the above firms. Growing practices is different though. Weil/K&E specifically said they weren't growing and were happy with their current size. Firms like Debevoise, STB, S&C were all focused on growing.

[Anonymous User]

What big firms are still actively looking for bankruptcy/restructuring associates (vs. allowing summers to pick bankruptcy)? Or, put another way, what firms are growing their bankruptcy practice, if any?

OP here. Offers at all of the above firms. Growing practices is different though. Weil/K&E specifically said they weren't growing and were happy with their current size. Firms like Debevoise, STB, S&C were all focused on growing.

If you want to see what firms are "growing," look at firms actively recruiting partners in that group. Since partners are (usually) recruited to bring in business, odds are they'll need associates to work on the business they bring in (and generate the revenue the firm wanted in the first place).

And no firm will give you an honest answer about this. None of these firms will divulge that they're looking to poach partners. In fact, only maybe 5% of each firm's partnership even knows who their firm is looking to poach. Probably even less.

[Anonymous User]

OP here: Down to Kirkland and Weil. Am I purely picking based on city or is there a noticeable difference between the firms?

Weil seemed more friendly and less broish, but a little weird; while Kirkland seemed more normal but more competitive--so I guess culture is pretty even with a slight advantage to Kirkland...

[Anonymous User]

What big firms are still actively looking for bankruptcy/restructuring associates (vs. allowing summers to pick bankruptcy)? Or, put another way, what firms are growing their bankruptcy practice, if any?

OP here. Offers at all of the above firms. Growing practices is different though. Weil/K&E specifically said they weren't growing and were happy with their current size. Firms like Debevoise, STB, S&C were all focused on growing.

This isn't really your concern, since you'll be starting as a first year; and Weil and K&E still need junior associates for lower level work.

I'd vote for Weil--it's not just a debtor firm, lots of the creditor-side work just doesn't get publicity. Also, geography-wise, the vast majority of serious bankruptcy cases + precedent are in the Northeast.

[Anonymous User]

Also, geography-wise, the vast majority of serious bankruptcy cases + precedent are in the Northeast.

...and this influences the decision how? K&E has an NYC office and gets some pretty "serious bankruptcy cases" from the region (i.e., A&P), and the bankruptcy department as between Chicago and NYC are pretty integrated. At least it seems that way to me when I saw Chicago bankruptcy partners and associates in NYC every week.

Edit: and it shouldn't matter on the flipside either. Weil got American Airlines. Last I checked they're HQ'ed in Dallas.

[Anonymous User]

OP here: Down to Kirkland and Weil. Am I purely picking based on city or is there a noticeable difference between the firms?

Weil seemed more friendly and less broish, but a little weird; while Kirkland seemed more normal but more competitive--so I guess culture is pretty even with a slight advantage to Kirkland...

OP - I was in the same position as you and decided to pick K&E restructuring to summer in. I'm overall very happy with the decision and am going to do a little bit of cheerleading for the firm (so take it for what it is).

1) As someone previously mentioned, the NYC and Chicago offices work as one group/office for the most part. For example, two summer associates from Chicago flew to NYC to work on projects during the summer for a few days when they were needed there. The nice thing about this is that if you go to K&E Chicago, you'll get to fly to NYC ~1/month but get the COL advantages of Chicago on the same salary. Please do not discount the COL difference between NYC and Chicago, as it is immense.

2) Everyone I've worked with is definitely competitive and hardworking, but I felt like there wasn't a cutthroat mentality or unnecessary formality to the place. Everyone gets in, works their asses off, then goes home (and continues to work their asses off there). It just feels a little bit more "midwestern" than the haughtiness of NYC.

3) Despite what the naysayer above said, it really does seem like junior associates get substantive work early on in some of the middle market failed PE deals. It's the mega-restructurings where you have no chance of getting task ownership early on (which K&E has too, no doubt).

4) Kirkland's restructuring group seems to be in a pretty sweet spot in terms of size. The partners are very aggressive about pitching work and it seems like the group is extremely busy. Clearly I don't know the whole picture here or how to gauge it, but I definitely didn't see/feel any nervousness.

Again, you need to take my advice with a grain of salt given that I drank the kool aid, but I don't think you can go wrong with picking K&E even if it's for the COL adjustment alone.