How Bad Is Cravath?

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bowser
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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby bowser » Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:24 pm

thesealocust wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm unsure why you think Skadden NY is less selective than its peers.


Because I have several years worth of hiring data from several top schools 8)

At a ~random top school~ I'm looking at from a ~random year,~ Skadden's average GPA was ~3.5 while S&C, Cravath, DPW and Wachtell were all at least 3.65.

It's not a huge difference, but it's a difference. I'm sure it varies from school to school and year to year, but I've seen enough numbers to stand by the fact that Skadden NYC isn't as selective as the other V5ish firms it often competes with for students.



Really? I go to CCN so probably it's a little different, but I don't think the average GPA for those places is that high. If I had to guess it'd be more like 3.55.

EDIT: Wachtell is probably that high. I don't think DPW and Cravath are.

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:23 pm

Bumping this. I am considering the firm and want to know if it is really more intense than its peers in the V10-20.

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:08 am

Also faced with this decision. I really do not want to go but obviously the prestige is hard to resist. Is there any truth to the fact that they provide the best training? It seems like partners really do take an interest in junior development but that might be the kool aid talking. Is the fact that I'll become really good at 2 or 3 areas of law before exiting worth working here?

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anyriotgirl
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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby anyriotgirl » Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:14 am

thesealocust wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:I'm not going to complain, but when people wonder about the decline of the legal industry and how come there is still so much hiring at the top and not as many layoffs, a big chunk of money saved by firms is the steep decline in total compensation for associates.


1st year salary is obviously still generous objectively, but it's telling that it hasn't budged since I took the LSAT. Of course, I think $5 footlongs at subway were a thing then and are now a thing again (WHILE SUPPLIES LAST THIS SEPTEMBER YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST) so inflation bla bla bla.

...maybe end of QE = NY TO 190?


lol

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thesealocust
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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby thesealocust » Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:16 am

[insert rant about how subway finally fazed out $5 footlongs even for ham subs: here]

lawman84
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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby lawman84 » Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:17 am

Anonymous User wrote:Also faced with this decision. I really do not want to go but obviously the prestige is hard to resist. Is there any truth to the fact that they provide the best training? It seems like partners really do take an interest in junior development but that might be the kool aid talking. Is the fact that I'll become really good at 2 or 3 areas of law before exiting worth working here?


If you don't want to go, why would you? It's your life.

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:20 am

lawman84 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Also faced with this decision. I really do not want to go but obviously the prestige is hard to resist. Is there any truth to the fact that they provide the best training? It seems like partners really do take an interest in junior development but that might be the kool aid talking. Is the fact that I'll become really good at 2 or 3 areas of law before exiting worth working here?


If you don't want to go, why would you? It's your life.


I have loans so I have accepted that I must work in biglaw. I've also heard that there isn't much of a difference between top firms in terms of hours and I enjoyed the people I met at Cravath. I do get the impression that the hours at Cravath might be slightly worse since a) you work with a limited number of partners and b) everyone who goes has a type A personality. I am just wondering if the training that I receive at Cravath will make going in-house easier/quicker.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:25 am

lawman84 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Also faced with this decision. I really do not want to go but obviously the prestige is hard to resist. Is there any truth to the fact that they provide the best training? It seems like partners really do take an interest in junior development but that might be the kool aid talking. Is the fact that I'll become really good at 2 or 3 areas of law before exiting worth working here?


If you don't want to go, why would you? It's your life.

It sounds like "really don't want to go" means he'd take DPW or Cleary or whatever instead. If that's the case, go to Cravath if you think it works for you. If it's Cravath because of the prestige instead of Sidley Chicago even though you want to end up in Chicago well then obviously Cravath makes no sense.

In any case, calm your balls with the really good at 2 or 3 areas of law stuff. You'll either rotate or be a generalist at all of Cravath's peers for the first few years, just like at Cravath. Beyond that, there's no telling where you'll be.

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:35 am

Tiago Splitter wrote:
lawman84 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Also faced with this decision. I really do not want to go but obviously the prestige is hard to resist. Is there any truth to the fact that they provide the best training? It seems like partners really do take an interest in junior development but that might be the kool aid talking. Is the fact that I'll become really good at 2 or 3 areas of law before exiting worth working here?


If you don't want to go, why would you? It's your life.

It sounds like "really don't want to go" means he'd take DPW or Cleary or whatever instead. If that's the case, go to Cravath if you think it works for you. If it's Cravath because of the prestige instead of Sidley Chicago even though you want to end up in Chicago well then obviously Cravath makes no sense.

In any case, calm your balls with the really good at 2 or 3 areas of law stuff. You'll either rotate or be a generalist at all of Cravath's peers for the first few years, just like at Cravath. Beyond that, there's no telling where you'll be.


Doesn't Cravath have a constant-rotation system that is different from other firms?

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:36 am

Anonymous User wrote:
lawman84 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Also faced with this decision. I really do not want to go but obviously the prestige is hard to resist. Is there any truth to the fact that they provide the best training? It seems like partners really do take an interest in junior development but that might be the kool aid talking. Is the fact that I'll become really good at 2 or 3 areas of law before exiting worth working here?

If you don't want to go, why would you? It's your life.

I have loans so I have accepted that I must work in biglaw. I've also heard that there isn't much of a difference between top firms in terms of hours and I enjoyed the people I met at Cravath. I do get the impression that the hours at Cravath might be slightly worse since a) you work with a limited number of partners and b) everyone who goes has a type A personality. I am just wondering if the training that I receive at Cravath will make going in-house easier/quicker.

I don't think Cravath will make going in-house easier or quicker compared to its peers (e.g. S&C/Skadden/DPW/STB). Obviously the continuous rotation system is pretty unique but otherwise these NYC firms are not all that much different. If you liked the vibe there, then by all means go there since you will get some of the best training, work and opportunities around. But if you didn't like it and have other similar options, then don't. If prestige is the tiebreaker, then I don't see why not (again, things like people/rotation should be the more important considerations).

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:38 am

Anonymous User wrote:Doesn't Cravath have a constant-rotation system that is different from other firms?

they do but after 2.5 years you'll have done two rotations. It'll take 3.5 years to get through the third. Given the standard turnover I wouldn't expect to be there beyond that. Like I said at any of Cravath's peers the early years will be pretty similar, at least for corporate.

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby NoLongerALurker » Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:30 am

I struggled for some time deciding between Cravath and Skadden. Ultimately chose Skadden. Don't regret it. But Cravath would have been fine. Just decide if you want the rotation system or not and go from there.

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:31 am

DPW is two 6 month rotations, fwiw.

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:45 am

I might be a little crazy, but why don't people ever consider just going to a well-regarded and financially stable firm like a Milbank or Wilkie? I'm not saying that there aren't people that work crazy hours at these firms as well, but from my experiences, it's not nearly as expected of you as these other "top" firms, such as Cravath. I assume it's because while everyone working at these types of firms is still smart enough to do any type of legal work, they just aren't the uber-gunners that are infatuated with prestige.

The jobs literally pay the same amount of $$$, and most good exit options are based more on the type of work you've done and your ability to have positive client interactions while doing that work. (And there are more people that have clerked on the Supreme Court than have been F100 GC's, and it's probably easier to become a V5 partner than a F500 GC, so please leave those scenarios out.)

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.

Postby Anomynous » Fri Sep 04, 2015 2:00 am

.
Last edited by Anomynous on Sun Oct 18, 2015 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby heythatslife » Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:44 am

Anonymous User wrote:I might be a little crazy, but why don't people ever consider just going to a well-regarded and financially stable firm like a Milbank or Wilkie? I'm not saying that there aren't people that work crazy hours at these firms as well, but from my experiences, it's not nearly as expected of you as these other "top" firms, such as Cravath. I assume it's because while everyone working at these types of firms is still smart enough to do any type of legal work, they just aren't the uber-gunners that are infatuated with prestige.

The jobs literally pay the same amount of $$$, and most good exit options are based more on the type of work you've done and your ability to have positive client interactions while doing that work. (And there are more people that have clerked on the Supreme Court than have been F100 GC's, and it's probably easier to become a V5 partner than a F500 GC, so please leave those scenarios out.)


Because PREFTIGE. A surprising (or unsurprising) number of law students are, in your words, "uber-gunners that are infatuated with prestige."

I've had conversations with multiple people that ran something like this recently:
"I didn't really like the vibe I got from X firm, but I don't know, I think I might end up there."
"But if you didn't like it, why would you go?"
"It's the highest-ranked among the offers I have..."
And we're talking about choosing between a V5 and a V10, or a V10 and a V20.

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:29 am

heythatslife wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I might be a little crazy, but why don't people ever consider just going to a well-regarded and financially stable firm like a Milbank or Wilkie? I'm not saying that there aren't people that work crazy hours at these firms as well, but from my experiences, it's not nearly as expected of you as these other "top" firms, such as Cravath. I assume it's because while everyone working at these types of firms is still smart enough to do any type of legal work, they just aren't the uber-gunners that are infatuated with prestige.

The jobs literally pay the same amount of $$$, and most good exit options are based more on the type of work you've done and your ability to have positive client interactions while doing that work. (And there are more people that have clerked on the Supreme Court than have been F100 GC's, and it's probably easier to become a V5 partner than a F500 GC, so please leave those scenarios out.)


Because PREFTIGE. A surprising (or unsurprising) number of law students are, in your words, "uber-gunners that are infatuated with prestige."

I've had conversations with multiple people that ran something like this recently:
"I didn't really like the vibe I got from X firm, but I don't know, I think I might end up there."
"But if you didn't like it, why would you go?"
"It's the highest-ranked among the offers I have..."
And we're talking about choosing between a V5 and a V10, or a V10 and a V20.


People need to stop thinking of vault as a ranking. Or any one V10 (like Cravath) as different from any others.

If you don't like the feel of a place from your recruiting exposure, you won't like working there and you should go to another equally regarded firm (of which there are many). If you do like a place and its people, you probably still won't like working there, but you have a slightly higher shot at career success and happiness.

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:30 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
lawman84 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Also faced with this decision. I really do not want to go but obviously the prestige is hard to resist. Is there any truth to the fact that they provide the best training? It seems like partners really do take an interest in junior development but that might be the kool aid talking. Is the fact that I'll become really good at 2 or 3 areas of law before exiting worth working here?

If you don't want to go, why would you? It's your life.

I have loans so I have accepted that I must work in biglaw. I've also heard that there isn't much of a difference between top firms in terms of hours and I enjoyed the people I met at Cravath. I do get the impression that the hours at Cravath might be slightly worse since a) you work with a limited number of partners and b) everyone who goes has a type A personality. I am just wondering if the training that I receive at Cravath will make going in-house easier/quicker.

I don't think Cravath will make going in-house easier or quicker compared to its peers (e.g. S&C/Skadden/DPW/STB). Obviously the continuous rotation system is pretty unique but otherwise these NYC firms are not all that much different. If you liked the vibe there, then by all means go there since you will get some of the best training, work and opportunities around. But if you didn't like it and have other similar options, then don't. If prestige is the tiebreaker, then I don't see why not (again, things like people/rotation should be the more important considerations).


This. All these firms offer the same type of 'prestige', which again, should be a lesser consideration than many others.
Last edited by jbagelboy on Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:31 am

Cravath is a phenomenal firm but it takes a very particular sort of person to go there. You have to really love the idea of being a generalist and constantly being exposed to new practice areas. If you want to exit your firm as a 5th year with fives years experience in M&A or in securities, Cravath is not the firm for you--because if you exit Cravath as a fifth year, you will have maybe 2 years of M&A, 2 years of banking and one year of securities under your belt.

Cravath's rotation system is also very much Russian roulette--you may want to try out M&A, but get stuck doing only finance. Or you might get stuck with partners you hate. In most other firms, you have a lot of say in what work you do and with whom you work. If there's someone you hate, most firms won't force you to work with that person. Cravath will.

Also, I believe Skadden's NY office is now the third or fourth biggest NY law office. Paul, Weiss is the biggest now, and I want to say maybe DPW is second?

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby UnicornHunter » Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:35 am

heythatslife wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I might be a little crazy, but why don't people ever consider just going to a well-regarded and financially stable firm like a Milbank or Wilkie? I'm not saying that there aren't people that work crazy hours at these firms as well, but from my experiences, it's not nearly as expected of you as these other "top" firms, such as Cravath. I assume it's because while everyone working at these types of firms is still smart enough to do any type of legal work, they just aren't the uber-gunners that are infatuated with prestige.

The jobs literally pay the same amount of $$$, and most good exit options are based more on the type of work you've done and your ability to have positive client interactions while doing that work. (And there are more people that have clerked on the Supreme Court than have been F100 GC's, and it's probably easier to become a V5 partner than a F500 GC, so please leave those scenarios out.)


Because PREFTIGE. A surprising (or unsurprising) number of law students are, in your words, "uber-gunners that are infatuated with prestige."

I've had conversations with multiple people that ran something like this recently:
"I didn't really like the vibe I got from X firm, but I don't know, I think I might end up there."
"But if you didn't like it, why would you go?"
"It's the highest-ranked among the offers I have..."
And we're talking about choosing between a V5 and a V10, or a V10 and a V20.


I might be way off base here, but it seems like with lit its not that crazy to be concerned with prestige given that your exit options are going to be more limited and won't necessarily be to a client. Like yeah, what type of work you end up doing and how yoj do it will ultimately matter more, but you can't really control for those things during OCI.

That being said trying to isolate the prestige differences between firms like Skadden and Cravath is probably a waste.

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby SLS_AMG » Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:08 am

heythatslife wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I might be a little crazy, but why don't people ever consider just going to a well-regarded and financially stable firm like a Milbank or Wilkie? I'm not saying that there aren't people that work crazy hours at these firms as well, but from my experiences, it's not nearly as expected of you as these other "top" firms, such as Cravath. I assume it's because while everyone working at these types of firms is still smart enough to do any type of legal work, they just aren't the uber-gunners that are infatuated with prestige.

The jobs literally pay the same amount of $$$, and most good exit options are based more on the type of work you've done and your ability to have positive client interactions while doing that work. (And there are more people that have clerked on the Supreme Court than have been F100 GC's, and it's probably easier to become a V5 partner than a F500 GC, so please leave those scenarios out.)


Because PREFTIGE. A surprising (or unsurprising) number of law students are, in your words, "uber-gunners that are infatuated with prestige."

I've had conversations with multiple people that ran something like this recently:
"I didn't really like the vibe I got from X firm, but I don't know, I think I might end up there."
"But if you didn't like it, why would you go?"
"It's the highest-ranked among the offers I have..."
And we're talking about choosing between a V5 and a V10, or a V10 and a V20.


I've seen the same and it's just absurd. Do some of these people crowd source their opinions so they can always do the most prestigious thing? I guess once you choose Cravath you should also try and find out what the most prestigious neighborhood is for you to live in (West Village) and which gym is most prestigious (Equinox). And don't be caught dead at Trader Joe's, since it is much less prestigious than Whole Foods. And on those very rare occasions when Cravath lets you take a vacation, make sure you book your flight from JFK, because it's much more prestigious than Newark-Liberty.

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby Winter is Coming » Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:20 am

If you talking strictly grade medians and cut-offs, Skadden is definitely less selective at Cornell than other V5-10 firms. With that said, their GPA range is huge and they give out a comparatively low amount of callbacks (with then a really high callback to offer ratio). This year they only did something like 20 screeners, 7 callbacks, 6 offers. Compare to DPW which did 60 and at least double digit callbacks and offers (but with a higher GPA median).

Skadden is less selective grade-wise, but they are really looking for a certain type of person (so in that sense it may be more selective with intangibles). Tons of people with great grades don't get callbacks and they'll invite median people back to the office. It's like the reverse S&C.

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby lonerider » Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:22 am

SLS_AMG wrote:I've seen the same and it's just absurd. Do some of these people crowd source their opinions so they can always do the most prestigious thing? I guess once you choose Cravath you should also try and find out what the most prestigious neighborhood is for you to live in (West Village) and which gym is most prestigious (Equinox). And don't be caught dead at Trader Joe's, since it is much less prestigious than Whole Foods. And on those very rare occasions when Cravath lets you take a vacation, make sure you book your flight from JFK, because it's much more prestigious than Newark-Liberty.


You've just humiliated yourself by showing how little you understand grocery store prestige.

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:50 am

Anonymous User wrote:I might be a little crazy, but why don't people ever consider just going to a well-regarded and financially stable firm like a Milbank or Wilkie? I'm not saying that there aren't people that work crazy hours at these firms as well, but from my experiences, it's not nearly as expected of you as these other "top" firms, such as Cravath. I assume it's because while everyone working at these types of firms is still smart enough to do any type of legal work, they just aren't the uber-gunners that are infatuated with prestige.

The jobs literally pay the same amount of $$$, and most good exit options are based more on the type of work you've done and your ability to have positive client interactions while doing that work. (And there are more people that have clerked on the Supreme Court than have been F100 GC's, and it's probably easier to become a V5 partner than a F500 GC, so please leave those scenarios out.)


I chose Cravath over other V10s and Milbank (which had been my top choice going in to OCI) because I liked the people there most and felt the most comfortable there. No one ever believes me though.

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:00 pm

^^^I felt the same way. I keep hoping I'll find another firm that I click with the people as much as I did at cravath. But as someone who hates having to seek out work and is really introverted and would prefer to have someone else just run my life, I don't know if that is going to happen...




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