How Bad Is Cravath?

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:06 am

Cravath's associate satisfaction score is even worse than that of S&C (107 for S&C v. 90 for Cravath).

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:04 am

Anonymous User wrote:Cravath's associate satisfaction score is even worse than that of S&C (107 for S&C v. 90 for Cravath).


Cool, more random and unreliable data (and isn't that the old data?). The newest AmLaw MidLevel Associate Satisfaction survey actually has Cravath rising from 119th to 68th place. S&C dropping from 111 to 114th. DPW falling from 61 to 111. STB falling from 67 to 94th.

Point being, these metrics are all terrible and the data is virtually useless when choosing among these firms

rosenbiems
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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby rosenbiems » Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:No one should go to Cravath for corporate if they have other non-Skadden V5 options because of Cravath's hours and rotation system. If you want M&A, go to WLRK. If you want M&A/cap market/securities regulation, go to S&C. If you want a "nice"/"passive aggressive" work environment, go to Davis Polk.


Why do you except Skadden from the equation?

KidStuddi
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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby KidStuddi » Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:36 pm

rosenbiems wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:No one should go to Cravath for corporate if they have other non-Skadden V5 options because of Cravath's hours and rotation system. If you want M&A, go to WLRK. If you want M&A/cap market/securities regulation, go to S&C. If you want a "nice"/"passive aggressive" work environment, go to Davis Polk.


Why do you except Skadden from the equation?


It's pretty standard legal snob practice to consider Skadden overrated. Too big to be truly elite and all that jazz.
Law firm equivalent of saying "GeorgeTTTown" basically.

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:45 pm

KidStuddi wrote:
rosenbiems wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:No one should go to Cravath for corporate if they have other non-Skadden V5 options because of Cravath's hours and rotation system. If you want M&A, go to WLRK. If you want M&A/cap market/securities regulation, go to S&C. If you want a "nice"/"passive aggressive" work environment, go to Davis Polk.


Why do you except Skadden from the equation?


It's pretty standard legal snob practice to consider Skadden overrated. Too big to be truly elite and all that jazz.
Law firm equivalent of saying "GeorgeTTTown" basically.


Well that's not a very satisfying answer considering that it is associates rank Skadden #4 on Vault?

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thesealocust
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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby thesealocust » Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:50 pm

Skappen is too big to be the best at everything (but make no mistake, it's still good at everything it does do), so its reputation sits in this weird place where it's indisputably elite and cream of the crop for some things (go-to example: M&A out of its NYC office) but can't lay claim to being elite and basically everything it touches the way the other "top" firms can. One result is that it's noticeably less selective in hiring out of law school than the other firms with similar reputations amongst clients/the legal field, because law students are prestige whores.

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:03 pm

thesealocust wrote:Skappen is too big to be the best at everything (but make no mistake, it's still good at everything it does do), so its reputation sits in this weird place where it's indisputably elite and cream of the crop for some things (go-to example: M&A out of its NYC office) but can't lay claim to being elite and basically everything it touches the way the other "top" firms can. One result is that it's noticeably less selective in hiring out of law school than the other firms with similar reputations amongst clients/the legal field, because law students are prestige whores.


This. And, you see firms less than half the size of Skadden (i.e. Wachtell, S&C, Cravath, etc.) beating Skadden in the league tables in Skadden's strong areas (e.g. M&A, securities).

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby KidStuddi » Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
KidStuddi wrote:
rosenbiems wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:No one should go to Cravath for corporate if they have other non-Skadden V5 options because of Cravath's hours and rotation system. If you want M&A, go to WLRK. If you want M&A/cap market/securities regulation, go to S&C. If you want a "nice"/"passive aggressive" work environment, go to Davis Polk.


Why do you except Skadden from the equation?


It's pretty standard legal snob practice to consider Skadden overrated. Too big to be truly elite and all that jazz.
Law firm equivalent of saying "GeorgeTTTown" basically.


Well that's not a very satisfying answer considering that it is associates rank Skadden #4 on Vault?


Right, and Georgetown is obviously a fine law school. Still, the perception persists that it is overrated because its success has more to do with its size than the individual quality of the attorneys it produces. It's not a perfectly rational criticism, but it is not meritless either. Likewise, Skadden has a reputation of being too large to be consistently elite when compared to its V5 or even V10 peers.

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Old Gregg
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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby Old Gregg » Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:30 pm

Skadden is only "larger" because it has a lot more offices than its peers and staffs them. Shouldn't really be a knock against their "eliteness" that they chose to compete in other markets.

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thesealocust
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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby thesealocust » Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:13 pm

Also, without verifying research, I like to imagine Skadden's NYC office as the single largest collection of lawyers the planet has ever seen. Most big offices clock in around 600 lawyers tops, but I think Skadden's got almost a thousand chilling near Times Square.

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:49 pm

All these firms are excellent in most practice areas.

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:57 pm

Cravath is excellent firm; it really depends on fit.

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Cravath's associate satisfaction score is even worse than that of S&C (107 for S&C v. 90 for Cravath).


Cool, more random and unreliable data (and isn't that the old data?). The newest AmLaw MidLevel Associate Satisfaction survey actually has Cravath rising from 119th to 68th place. S&C dropping from 111 to 114th. DPW falling from 61 to 111. STB falling from 67 to 94th.

Point being, these metrics are all terrible and the data is virtually useless when choosing among these firms


Is there a place to see this data without paying $400 for a subscription?

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smaug_
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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby smaug_ » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Is there a place to see this data without paying $400 for a subscription?


Your office of career services should have a subscription.

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby horseradish » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:29 pm

thesealocust wrote:Also, without verifying research, I like to imagine Skadden's NYC office as the single largest collection of lawyers the planet has ever seen. Most big offices clock in around 600 lawyers tops, but I think Skadden's got almost a thousand chilling near Times Square.


Looks like their NY Office has 665

http://www.chambers-associate.com/Law/FirmFeature/3656

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Old Gregg
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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby Old Gregg » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:48 pm

horseradish wrote:
thesealocust wrote:Also, without verifying research, I like to imagine Skadden's NYC office as the single largest collection of lawyers the planet has ever seen. Most big offices clock in around 600 lawyers tops, but I think Skadden's got almost a thousand chilling near Times Square.


Looks like their NY Office has 665

http://www.chambers-associate.com/Law/FirmFeature/3656


I was going to point that out, but decided against posting that based on the bolded above.

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby thesealocust » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:58 pm

Huh. Could have sworn it was materially more than the other NYC firms a few years ago; like 800. I either remembered wrong or it's shrunk a little (possibly both).

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:55 pm

thesealocust wrote:Huh. Could have sworn it was materially more than the other NYC firms a few years ago; like 800. I either remembered wrong or it's shrunk a little (possibly both).


Is Chambers accurate?

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby thesealocust » Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:57 pm

Should be. NALP publishes similar data which is what I remember looking at.

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby Old Gregg » Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:12 pm

thesealocust wrote:Should be. NALP publishes similar data which is what I remember looking at.


NALP shows numbers in the same ballpark.

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:21 am

Don't know about the op. Some of you guys are acting like you got the Cravath SA, but are hesitating at the offer...LOL

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby justinp » Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:59 am

Anonymous User wrote:Don't know about the op. Some of you guys are acting like you got the Cravath SA, but are hesitating at the offer...LOL


I know plenty of people who got Cravath summer offers and turned them down. It's a great (like really great) firm, but it's not like its an obviously correct choice for everyone.

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:01 pm

thesealocust wrote:Skappen is too big to be the best at everything (but make no mistake, it's still good at everything it does do), so its reputation sits in this weird place where it's indisputably elite and cream of the crop for some things (go-to example: M&A out of its NYC office) but can't lay claim to being elite and basically everything it touches the way the other "top" firms can. One result is that it's noticeably less selective in hiring out of law school than the other firms with similar reputations amongst clients/the legal field, because law students are prestige whores.


I'm unsure why you think Skadden NY is less selective than its peers. At my T10, its median GPA offer is consistent with its Vault rank and its peers.

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thesealocust
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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby thesealocust » Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm unsure why you think Skadden NY is less selective than its peers.


Because I have several years worth of hiring data from several top schools 8)

At a ~random top school~ I'm looking at from a ~random year,~ Skadden's average GPA was ~3.5 while S&C, Cravath, DPW and Wachtell were all at least 3.65.

It's not a huge difference, but it's a difference. I'm sure it varies from school to school and year to year, but I've seen enough numbers to stand by the fact that Skadden NYC isn't as selective as the other V5ish firms it often competes with for students.

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Re: How Bad Is Cravath?

Postby Old Gregg » Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:16 pm

Skadden's selectivity is along the lines of Weil, Latham, Kirkland and Paul Weiss.




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