S&C Questions

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Re: S&C Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Maybe it's because s&c offers socially awkward people who have high grades but can't get offers at peer firms. I say this as someone who has interviewed with these peer firms recently and so far has only an offer from s&c from those firms. As you said yourself, skadden offered fewer people at your school than s&c despite lower grade cutoffs.

My impression was that Skadden had a lot of socially awkward people as well (2/4 interviewers at CB). If you have the grades (top 15% at HYS), you will be getting an offer not only from S&C but also from most of its peer firms. S&C (though filled with law review nerds) isn't desperate for people with high grades. It offers less than a third of the people who met their grade cut-offs (HYS). I'm sure most of the other 2/3 did screeners with them as well.

last year s&c offered all but two of the people that accepted their callbacks from one of hys. their yield was ~30% at that same hys. also, you don't need 15% at any of hys to sweep the v5. median puts you in contention at all but possibly wachtell.

also, at one of hys, s&c offered over half of interviewers. you appear not to know what you're talking about.

At my HYS, S&C offered everyone who accepted a CB interview last year. They're obviously not screening for personality. In contrast, the other V5 firms reject at least 1/3 or so at the CB stage. In fact, the only guy I know at my school who would fail every test for personality was an SA at S&C this summer.

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Re: S&C Questions

Postby BFrankBYangC » Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:If you receive a CB after a screener received from mass-mailing, is the offer rate likely to be as high as it is for those who receive their CB's from screeners at OCI?


Why wouldn't it be? My impression is that S&C doesn't callback people they don't want to offer.

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Re: S&C Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:09 pm

[/quote]
At my HYS, S&C offered everyone who accepted a CB interview last year. They're obviously not screening for personality. In contrast, the other V5 firms reject at least 1/3 or so at the CB stage. In fact, the only guy I know at my school who would fail every test for personality was an SA at S&C this summer.[/quote]

Not surprised you're a student at HYS, given your impeccable logic. If you offer everyone accepting a CB, there is no way you could have screened for personality . . . at the screening interview.

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Re: S&C Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Not surprised you're a student at HYS, given your impeccable logic. If you offer everyone accepting a CB, there is no way you could have screened for personality . . . at the screening interview.


I'm not the anon you quoted, but I'm sure most would agree that it's difficult to screen for personality at the screening stage. You can weed out some bad apples, but some will make it through. At the callback stage, it's easier to screen for personality given that you've got six to eight attorneys judging the interviewee for multiple hours.

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Re: S&C Questions

Postby Old Gregg » Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:27 pm

BFrankBYangC wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If you receive a CB after a screener received from mass-mailing, is the offer rate likely to be as high as it is for those who receive their CB's from screeners at OCI?


Why wouldn't it be? My impression is that S&C doesn't callback people they don't want to offer.


Geez what on earth would lead you to that impression?

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Re: S&C Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
VulcanVulcanVulcan wrote: I've looked at the yield data for multiple of HYS and I've also noticed that Skadden NY gets absolutely crushed relative to the rest of V5. Any speculation as to why this is?


skadden is not particularly selective at hys, for one. they also have a collection of weird stereotypes like being annoyingly fratty, producing some truly shit associates on account of their lack of selectivity, and being a sweatshop. the sum of these is enough to put some people off. law firm choices at hys run the gamut tho. you cannot really put much stock into the choices of law students at hys. they face choices that law students from other schools consider unattainable, such as boutiques, those mythical secondary market biglaw with work-life balance etc.

if people keep focusing on this silly yield thing, all that is going to do is encourage law firms at that level to indulge in stupid yield-protect tactics like law schools do.


Why isn't Skadden selective at HYS? They give fewer offers than non-WLRK V5's.


selectivity as it relates to grades. their offers have nothing to do with grades. among the v5, the hys bottom guy's best shot at v5 is skadden. they select for other things, i am sure.

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Re: S&C Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Not surprised you're a student at HYS, given your impeccable logic. If you offer everyone accepting a CB, there is no way you could have screened for personality . . . at the screening interview.

I'm not the anon you quoted, but I'm sure most would agree that it's difficult to screen for personality at the screening stage. You can weed out some bad apples, but some will make it through. At the callback stage, it's easier to screen for personality given that you've got six to eight attorneys judging the interviewee for multiple hours.

I am the quoted anon, and S&C did not attempt any screening at the screeners. In my case, as soon as I sat down the partner asked for my transcript. He told me that with my grades I would get a lot of callback invitations, and that I should accept no more than 5. He then spent the rest of the interview explaining to me (in detail, with explanatory examples) why S&C was better than its peers. I heard similar stories from other people with S&C callbacks at my school.

While some other V10s also attempted a hard sell at the screener, they at least asked a few questions and/or chatted a bit with me first.

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Re: S&C Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:49 pm

BFrankBYangC wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If you receive a CB after a screener received from mass-mailing, is the offer rate likely to be as high as it is for those who receive their CB's from screeners at OCI?


Why wouldn't it be? My impression is that S&C doesn't callback people they don't want to offer.


I'm just being irrational and over-thinking things. I want an offer from S&C very, very badly.

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Re: S&C Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Not surprised you're a student at HYS, given your impeccable logic. If you offer everyone accepting a CB, there is no way you could have screened for personality . . . at the screening interview.

I'm not the anon you quoted, but I'm sure most would agree that it's difficult to screen for personality at the screening stage. You can weed out some bad apples, but some will make it through. At the callback stage, it's easier to screen for personality given that you've got six to eight attorneys judging the interviewee for multiple hours.

I am the quoted anon, and S&C did not attempt any screening at the screeners. In my case, as soon as I sat down the partner asked for my transcript. He told me that with my grades I would get a lot of callback invitations, and that I should accept no more than 5. He then spent the rest of the interview explaining to me (in detail, with explanatory examples) why S&C was better than its peers. I heard similar stories from other people with S&C callbacks at my school.

While some other V10s also attempted a hard sell at the screener, they at least asked a few questions and/or chatted a bit with me first.


From my experience at HLS, the screener for S&C was merely a transcript drop followed by token questions. Unless a person with 5H+ has autism and is thus unable to converse in an elementary manner, then that person would almost assuredly receive a CB, for which they would then be guaranteed an offer.

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Re: S&C Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:12 pm

My experience with S&C was apparently the same as everyone else's. My transcript was the first thing my interviewer looked at and then I was given a sales pitch for the duration of the interview. I received an offer during my callback as did everyone else I know. I also heard a funny (yet anecdotal) story about a person who is prone to social blunders saying something pretty outrageous during their S&C callback and still getting an offer. This person received no other V10 offers to my knowledge (despite apparently having S&C level grades).

Still a great firm. But I just think they really don't emphasize fit (or maybe they prefer a very heterogeneous culture). They also buy you lots of nice things (cookies, chocolates, etc.) during your courtship. I actually expect they will have a very high yield from my school this year, so their process definitely seems to work nicely.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: S&C Questions

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:22 pm

An earlier anon said there were 45-50 offers over the last two years at HLS. Is everybody with high grades just not bidding on S&C or what?

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Re: S&C Questions

Postby BFrankBYangC » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:26 am

Getting a screener from mass mail means they are interested. Callback confirms they want you. Enjoy S&C. I would be shocked if they don't offer you on the spot.

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Re: S&C Questions

Postby quakeroats » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:26 pm

Not sure if this has been posted here, but it's worth a read:

http://nymag.com/news/features/28515/

The case against S&C was eventually settled for an undisclosed amount.

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Re: S&C Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:54 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:An earlier anon said there were 45-50 offers over the last two years at HLS. Is everybody with high grades just not bidding on S&C or what?


probably meant 45-50 per year (which is actually the case). there is also a limited amount of interviewing slots (~100). students at hls probably work at the widest range of firms. i (and many others i know) chose other firms over v5's, v10's, or whatever etc. more harvard students end up outside new york than in it (even though new york has the most HLS students).

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Re: S&C Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:... you cannot really put much stock into the choices of law students at hys. they face choices that law students from other schools consider unattainable, such as boutiques, those mythical secondary market biglaw with work-life balance etc.


HYS here going to a secondary market that pays 160 with a COL less than half of NYC. Most of the people at my school are tragically barreling towards an excruciating existence at a place like S&C in NYC. I find that the K-JD crowd is particularly susceptible to lemming-hood - I imagine because they haven't got a clue what it means to work or why it is they are even in law school other than the pressure from tiger mom and tiger dad.

The people that "get it" are headed elsewhere. Why anyone with the ability to choose would go to NYC or even DC for that matter when places like San Diego, Denver and Austin are a real thing is absolutely beyond me. And if you think it is a "quality of work" issue, you're kidding yourself. A) The matters available in top tier secondary markets are essentially identical, particularly at satellite offices of major firms and B) That practice area you keep name dropping in your interviews? You don't actually know what that means.

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Re: S&C Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:... you cannot really put much stock into the choices of law students at hys. they face choices that law students from other schools consider unattainable, such as boutiques, those mythical secondary market biglaw with work-life balance etc.


HYS here going to a secondary market that pays 160 with a COL less than half of NYC. Most of the people at my school are tragically barreling towards an excruciating existence at a place like S&C in NYC. I find that the K-JD crowd is particularly susceptible to lemming-hood - I imagine because they haven't got a clue what it means to work or why it is they are even in law school other than the pressure from tiger mom and tiger dad.

The people that "get it" are headed elsewhere. Why anyone with the ability to choose would go to NYC or even DC for that matter when places like San Diego, Denver and Austin are a real thing is absolutely beyond me. And if you think it is a "quality of work" issue, you're kidding yourself. A) The matters available in top tier secondary markets are essentially identical, particularly at satellite offices of major firms and B) That practice area you keep name dropping in your interviews? You don't actually know what that means.


NY is not so bad if you're with an SO that also works at a law firm -- at least the COL issue becomes far less important. Hours might be more, but I suppose that's the price to pay to live in NY, which is definitely a magnet for young people who want to try living in such a place for a couple of years. Besides, it's always easier to lateral out of NY than to lateral into it.

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Re: S&C Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:... you cannot really put much stock into the choices of law students at hys. they face choices that law students from other schools consider unattainable, such as boutiques, those mythical secondary market biglaw with work-life balance etc.


HYS here going to a secondary market that pays 160 with a COL less than half of NYC. Most of the people at my school are tragically barreling towards an excruciating existence at a place like S&C in NYC. I find that the K-JD crowd is particularly susceptible to lemming-hood - I imagine because they haven't got a clue what it means to work or why it is they are even in law school other than the pressure from tiger mom and tiger dad.

The people that "get it" are headed elsewhere. Why anyone with the ability to choose would go to NYC or even DC for that matter when places like San Diego, Denver and Austin are a real thing is absolutely beyond me. And if you think it is a "quality of work" issue, you're kidding yourself. A) The matters available in top tier secondary markets are essentially identical, particularly at satellite offices of major firms and B) That practice area you keep name dropping in your interviews? You don't actually know what that means.


some people actually want to live in NYC and would consider living in SD, Denver or Austin to be tantamount to a hardship post. i agree with some of what you said but the latter part is ridiculous.

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Re: S&C Questions

Postby hephaestus » Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:... you cannot really put much stock into the choices of law students at hys. they face choices that law students from other schools consider unattainable, such as boutiques, those mythical secondary market biglaw with work-life balance etc.


HYS here going to a secondary market that pays 160 with a COL less than half of NYC. Most of the people at my school are tragically barreling towards an excruciating existence at a place like S&C in NYC. I find that the K-JD crowd is particularly susceptible to lemming-hood - I imagine because they haven't got a clue what it means to work or why it is they are even in law school other than the pressure from tiger mom and tiger dad.

The people that "get it" are headed elsewhere. Why anyone with the ability to choose would go to NYC or even DC for that matter when places like San Diego, Denver and Austin are a real thing is absolutely beyond me. And if you think it is a "quality of work" issue, you're kidding yourself. A) The matters available in top tier secondary markets are essentially identical, particularly at satellite offices of major firms and B) That practice area you keep name dropping in your interviews? You don't actually know what that means.

Or, you know, some people may actually like living in NYC despite the CoL drawbacks and choose it over secondary markets. Not everyone is doing it for the prestige.

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Re: S&C Questions

Postby thesealocust » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:02 pm

Also, a decade out of law school some of the lemmings at sweatshops in NYC are going to be partners at sweatshops in NYC slowly earning a slice of the corresponding insane PPP. Most (all?) will be burnt out shells of their former selves, but some will be rich and effectively tenured into their jobs as well... it's not all about 1st year salary and CoL.

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Re: S&C Questions

Postby wisdom » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:03 pm

This might be irrelevant at this point, but I noticed the OP asked -- and, so far as I can determine, no one answered -- a question regarding partnership compensation. This is actually a pretty big difference between the two firms. S&C is kill what you eat, so partners get paid based on the income they're bringing in, whereas DPW (like Cleary & Cravath) is on lockstep partnership compensation. This means the guy ten years senior will make more money regardless of whether you (junior partner, assuming you can even obtain that incredibly hard-to-get job) are the one racking up all the hours and managing the associates.

Which is not to say the S&C system is superior (although certainly the partners benefited by it must think so). DPW's system presumably fosters a more collegial and less cutthroat culture amongst the partnership, and when the amounts we're talking about are so high -- annual PPP of $2-3M for both places -- maybe it's not worth stressing over the extra $500k you should have made.

I'm not sure to what extent that should influence OP (or any potential summer/associate), given the near-impossibility of making partner, and the undesirability of the job of partner (Here's a factoid -- partners at S&C bill MORE hours than associates, not less, so it's not like you work your ass off for 8-10 years and then it's easy street), but that's the answer.

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Re: S&C Questions

Postby KaNa1986 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:40 pm

Also, a lot more cross-border deals are done in New York. If that interests you, New York is about the only option.
Last edited by KaNa1986 on Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: S&C Questions

Postby KaNa1986 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:41 pm

wisdom wrote:This might be irrelevant at this point, but I noticed the OP asked -- and, so far as I can determine, no one answered -- a question regarding partnership compensation. This is actually a pretty big difference between the two firms. S&C is kill what you eat, so partners get paid based on the income they're bringing in, whereas DPW (like Cleary & Cravath) is on lockstep partnership compensation. This means the guy ten years senior will make more money regardless of whether you (junior partner, assuming you can even obtain that incredibly hard-to-get job) are the one racking up all the hours and managing the associates.

Which is not to say the S&C system is superior (although certainly the partners benefited by it must think so). DPW's system presumably fosters a more collegial and less cutthroat culture amongst the partnership, and when the amounts we're talking about are so high -- annual PPP of $2-3M for both places -- maybe it's not worth stressing over the extra $500k you should have made.

I'm not sure to what extent that should influence OP (or any potential summer/associate), given the near-impossibility of making partner, and the undesirability of the job of partner (Here's a factoid -- partners at S&C bill MORE hours than associates, not less, so it's not like you work your ass off for 8-10 years and then it's easy street), but that's the answer.


$3,450,000 (S&C) v. $2,455,000 (DPW) is a big difference (of over 40%), especially considering that S&C's leverage ratio is a little lower than DPW's. That said, PPP shouldn't affect OP's decision because very few incoming associates make partner at either places.

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Re: S&C Questions

Postby quakeroats » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:51 pm

wisdom wrote:This might be irrelevant at this point, but I noticed the OP asked -- and, so far as I can determine, no one answered -- a question regarding partnership compensation. This is actually a pretty big difference between the two firms. S&C is kill what you eat, so partners get paid based on the income they're bringing in, whereas DPW (like Cleary & Cravath) is on lockstep partnership compensation. This means the guy ten years senior will make more money regardless of whether you (junior partner, assuming you can even obtain that incredibly hard-to-get job) are the one racking up all the hours and managing the associates.

Which is not to say the S&C system is superior (although certainly the partners benefited by it must think so). DPW's system presumably fosters a more collegial and less cutthroat culture amongst the partnership, and when the amounts we're talking about are so high -- annual PPP of $2-3M for both places -- maybe it's not worth stressing over the extra $500k you should have made.

I'm not sure to what extent that should influence OP (or any potential summer/associate), given the near-impossibility of making partner, and the undesirability of the job of partner (Here's a factoid -- partners at S&C bill MORE hours than associates, not less, so it's not like you work your ass off for 8-10 years and then it's easy street), but that's the answer.


That's one take, here's another:

“In battle if someone gets killed or wounded, you have to leave them behind. Lockstep in its purest form is similar – policed properly, it’s the toughest remuneration system on earth” – Partner, Linklaters

http://www.adamsmithesq.com/2012/12/lin ... ort-story/

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Re: S&C Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:10 pm

.

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Re: S&C Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:21 pm

S&C is NOT eat what you kill. It is also NOT straight lockstep.

All firms operate on a continuum. Some firms are straight lockstep. Some firms are closer to eat what you kill. S&C is NOT straight lockstep, but it is also not particularly close to EWYK. It is a mix of the two, sufficiently seniority-based so that every partner makes a shitton of money. That's not the case at firms that are more purely EWYK - for example, at Latham or W&C there are midcareer partners making mid six-figure salaries. THat was also the case at Dewey (as was revealed when it collapsed).

Now that's not to say that a straight lockstep system might be EVER BETTER than what S&C has, but its a far cry from the fight to the death atmosphere at a magic circle firm or a mid tier NY/Chicago factory. Everyone at S&C is getting fed, and being fed very, very well.

wisdom wrote:This might be irrelevant at this point, but I noticed the OP asked -- and, so far as I can determine, no one answered -- a question regarding partnership compensation. This is actually a pretty big difference between the two firms. S&C is kill what you eat, so partners get paid based on the income they're bringing in, whereas DPW (like Cleary & Cravath) is on lockstep partnership compensation. This means the guy ten years senior will make more money regardless of whether you (junior partner, assuming you can even obtain that incredibly hard-to-get job) are the one racking up all the hours and managing the associates.

Which is not to say the S&C system is superior (although certainly the partners benefited by it must think so). DPW's system presumably fosters a more collegial and less cutthroat culture amongst the partnership, and when the amounts we're talking about are so high -- annual PPP of $2-3M for both places -- maybe it's not worth stressing over the extra $500k you should have made.

I'm not sure to what extent that should influence OP (or any potential summer/associate), given the near-impossibility of making partner, and the undesirability of the job of partner (Here's a factoid -- partners at S&C bill MORE hours than associates, not less, so it's not like you work your ass off for 8-10 years and then it's easy street), but that's the answer.




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