Have an offer? Do the rest of us a favor...

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Anonymous User
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Have an offer? Do the rest of us a favor...

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:01 pm

If you have an offer, please do the rest of us who don't have one a favor: cancel callbacks and turn down offers from firms you know you aren't seriously entertaining. It feels nice to have options, but it feels exponentially worse for those of us who don't have any offers waiting around for a callback / offer from a firm that's simply waiting on you. The sooner you cancel / rescind, the sooner an opportunity goes to someone who could really (or even desparately) use the callback / offer before time runs out and all SA slots get filled.

Disclaimer: if you are even semi-serious about going to firm X, my message does not apply to you. It applies only to those who know for a certainty they aren't considering a firm, but still haven't gotten around to informing such said firm of their intentions, either because it feels nice to sit pretty or just haven't felt the urgency to.

Thank you.

rad lulz
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Re: Have an offer? Do the rest of us a favor...

Postby rad lulz » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:04 pm

Someone already made this thread

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IAFG
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Re: Have an offer? Do the rest of us a favor...

Postby IAFG » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:05 pm

1) don't cancel CBs

2) if you're this desperate, focus your attention on scaring up new interviews.

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Icculus
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Re: Have an offer? Do the rest of us a favor...

Postby Icculus » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:12 pm

IAFG wrote:1) don't cancel CBs

2) if you're this desperate, focus your attention on scaring up new interviews.


3) Most firms know their yields and it is unlikely that someone who cancels a CB or turns down an offer is going to result in an offer/CB for someone else. See #2.

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Re: Have an offer? Do the rest of us a favor...

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:20 pm

Icculus wrote:
IAFG wrote:1) don't cancel CBs

2) if you're this desperate, focus your attention on scaring up new interviews.


3) Most firms know their yields and it is unlikely that someone who cancels a CB or turns down an offer is going to result in an offer/CB for someone else. See #2.


RE: 3
In firms with smaller SA sizes (1-4), canceled CBs will very likely result in a CB for someone else not dinged but still waiting post OCI-screener.

RE: 2
Even if someone were focusing 100% of his/her attention on scaring up some new interviews, it would still help that person if those who are choosing between two firms to tell the 3rd or 4th firm that they aren't interested

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Re: Have an offer? Do the rest of us a favor...

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:44 pm

Firms estimate their yields, and they are frequently wrong. Canceling callbacks will often result in people being brought in. I have first hand experience with V50 and V100 firms telling me this when they tried to bring me in for callbacks in mid October.

Bottom line, take your time but don't collect offers. It always blows my mind when people do this.

horsehockey
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Re: Have an offer? Do the rest of us a favor...

Postby horsehockey » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:03 pm

Icculus wrote:
IAFG wrote:1) don't cancel CBs

2) if you're this desperate, focus your attention on scaring up new interviews.


3) Most firms know their yields and it is unlikely that someone who cancels a CB or turns down an offer is going to result in an offer/CB for someone else. See #2.


You're wrong. Don't post crap. See the responses to this thread and apologize for your error. I dare you to do the right thing.

truevines
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Re: Have an offer? Do the rest of us a favor...

Postby truevines » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:10 pm

horsehockey wrote:
Icculus wrote:
IAFG wrote:1) don't cancel CBs

2) if you're this desperate, focus your attention on scaring up new interviews.


3) Most firms know their yields and it is unlikely that someone who cancels a CB or turns down an offer is going to result in an offer/CB for someone else. See #2.


You're wrong. Don't post crap. See the responses to this thread and apologize for your error. I dare you to do the right thing.


Like the world owes you an offer and it's our fault that you haven't received any offer. Should have worked hard on your grades, WE, and interview skills, dood.

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Re: Have an offer? Do the rest of us a favor...

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Icculus wrote:
IAFG wrote:1) don't cancel CBs

2) if you're this desperate, focus your attention on scaring up new interviews.


3) Most firms know their yields and it is unlikely that someone who cancels a CB or turns down an offer is going to result in an offer/CB for someone else. See #2.


RE: 3
In firms with smaller SA sizes (1-4), canceled CBs will very likely result in a CB for someone else not dinged but still waiting post OCI-screener.

RE: 2
Even if someone were focusing 100% of his/her attention on scaring up some new interviews, it would still help that person if those who are choosing between two firms to tell the 3rd or 4th firm that they aren't interested


1 may violate NALP rules too, although only if you're in the unlikely situation of 5+ offers or have already accepted one.

Gorki
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Re: Have an offer? Do the rest of us a favor...

Postby Gorki » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:23 pm

truevines wrote:
horsehockey wrote:
Icculus wrote:
IAFG wrote:1) don't cancel CBs

2) if you're this desperate, focus your attention on scaring up new interviews.


3) Most firms know their yields and it is unlikely that someone who cancels a CB or turns down an offer is going to result in an offer/CB for someone else. See #2.


You're wrong. Don't post crap. See the responses to this thread and apologize for your error. I dare you to do the right thing.


Like the world owes you an offer and it's our fault that you haven't received any offer. Should have worked hard on your grades, WE, and interview skills, dood.

diaf

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Borhas
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Re: Have an offer? Do the rest of us a favor...

Postby Borhas » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:26 pm

truevines wrote:
horsehockey wrote:
Icculus wrote:
IAFG wrote:1) don't cancel CBs

2) if you're this desperate, focus your attention on scaring up new interviews.


3) Most firms know their yields and it is unlikely that someone who cancels a CB or turns down an offer is going to result in an offer/CB for someone else. See #2.


You're wrong. Don't post crap. See the responses to this thread and apologize for your error. I dare you to do the right thing.


Like the world owes you an offer and it's our fault that you haven't received any offer. Should have worked hard on your grades, WE, and interview skills, dood.


this post has been noted on your permanent record

aca0260
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Re: Have an offer? Do the rest of us a favor...

Postby aca0260 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:33 pm

truevines wrote:
horsehockey wrote:
Icculus wrote:
IAFG wrote:1) don't cancel CBs

2) if you're this desperate, focus your attention on scaring up new interviews.


3) Most firms know their yields and it is unlikely that someone who cancels a CB or turns down an offer is going to result in an offer/CB for someone else. See #2.


You're wrong. Don't post crap. See the responses to this thread and apologize for your error. I dare you to do the right thing.


Like the world owes you an offer and it's our fault that you haven't received any offer. Should have worked hard on your grades, WE, and interview skills, dood.


You're so tight bro.

KidStuddi
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Re: Have an offer? Do the rest of us a favor...

Postby KidStuddi » Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Firms estimate their yields, and they are frequently wrong. Canceling callbacks will often result in people being brought in. I have first hand experience with V50 and V100 firms telling me this when they tried to bring me in for callbacks in mid October.

Bottom line, take your time but don't collect offers. It always blows my mind when people do this.


It blows my mind that you think someone canceling their callback or turning down their offer 2 weeks earlier somehow means that the firm will bring in more / different people? Your own experience clearly indicates that if firms don't get enough people they'll continue recruiting well into October. Why then is there is any reason to rush other people's decisions if the firm will simply keep recruiting regardless?

Bottom line, take your time and explore all options thoroughly. Ruling out a firm before you've even attended a callback is baffling to me, unless you're doing it for geographic reasons.

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Re: Have an offer? Do the rest of us a favor...

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:40 pm

KidStuddi wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Firms estimate their yields, and they are frequently wrong. Canceling callbacks will often result in people being brought in. I have first hand experience with V50 and V100 firms telling me this when they tried to bring me in for callbacks in mid October.

Bottom line, take your time but don't collect offers. It always blows my mind when people do this.


It blows my mind that you think someone canceling their callback or turning down their offer 2 weeks earlier somehow means that the firm will bring in more / different people? Your own experience clearly indicates that if firms don't get enough people they'll continue recruiting well into October. Why then is there is any reason to rush other people's decisions if the firm will simply keep recruiting regardless?

Bottom line, take your time and explore all options thoroughly. Ruling out a firm before you've even attended a callback is baffling to me, unless you're doing it for geographic reasons.


I just got an offer for a market-paying firm and cancelled a CB at a firm that pays below market. I also would not accept an offer at the latter firm if I were to get one.

Not that I can change things now, but that justifies canceling a CB, amirite?

I realize OP didn't write his post in the most tactful way, but I do kinda see where s/he's coming from. Why sit on 5+ offers for multiple weeks?

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Icculus
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Re: Have an offer? Do the rest of us a favor...

Postby Icculus » Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:46 pm

First...

horsehockey wrote:
Icculus wrote:
IAFG wrote:1) don't cancel CBs

2) if you're this desperate, focus your attention on scaring up new interviews.


3) Most firms know their yields and it is unlikely that someone who cancels a CB or turns down an offer is going to result in an offer/CB for someone else. See #2.


You're wrong. Don't post crap. See the responses to this thread and apologize for your error. I dare you to do the right thing.


WTF? Why are you so angry one post guy? I stand by what I said, most firms handle their yields in a particular way and for the vast majority of people a cancelled CB or withdrawn offer isn't going to change things.

Second...

Anonymous User wrote:I realize OP didn't write his post in the most tactful way, but I do kinda see where s/he's coming from. Why sit on 5+ offers for multiple weeks?


Most people are not sitting on 5+ offers, most people get 1 or 2, maybe 3 offers they are choosing from. For people who have 5+ offers, yes, they should cancel ones they know they won't take. That doesn't mean people with several offers need to cancel CBs they have coming up. The firms I ended up liking most were not my top firms until I did my CBs and got to meet people and see the firms up close. I am sure this happens to many people, why not see what the firms are like? Again though, for that small group of students who have 5+ offers, collecting offers is a dick move and "violates" NALP rules, but I think people over estimate how many of those people exist.

Finally....

Anonymous User wrote:I just got an offer for a market-paying firm and cancelled a CB at a firm that pays below market. I also would not accept an offer at the latter firm if I were to get one.


Totally reasonable.

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Re: Have an offer? Do the rest of us a favor...

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:11 pm

As one of those 'dick' people who have more than 5 offers (temporarily) I just want to say that this is actually an agonizing decision. I don't know what kind of sadist just collects offers to hoard them, but I will say that I personally legitimately liked a lot of the firms, and specifically a lot of the people I've contacted and met with. It is difficult to choose one.

Please realize this is a serious career decision, and while yes, I grant that there are those who would be extremely grateful to have even one offer, I, and most others I think, did not 'elbow' my way to these offers, and I certainly feel this is a very critical decision that requires careful thinking.

Am I ever going to make a decision based on complete information? Absolutely not. But I will endeavor to find out as much as I can, within my given time limit, because I think doing otherwise is foolish.

Anyway, the NALP requires us to limit ourselves to choosing between 5, so I will narrow it down to 5, but just realize that I'm taking my time because it's a difficult decision, and I care about the consequences. I am certainly not doing it to spite those still seeking.

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Re: Have an offer? Do the rest of us a favor...

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:14 am

truevines wrote:
horsehockey wrote:
Icculus wrote:
IAFG wrote:1) don't cancel CBs

2) if you're this desperate, focus your attention on scaring up new interviews.


3) Most firms know their yields and it is unlikely that someone who cancels a CB or turns down an offer is going to result in an offer/CB for someone else. See #2.


You're wrong. Don't post crap. See the responses to this thread and apologize for your error. I dare you to do the right thing.


Like the world owes you an offer and it's our fault that you haven't received any offer. Should have worked hard on your grades, WE, and interview skills, dood.

Not sure if you're trolling, but some people have the grades and work experience and have improved their interviewing as much as they can. At a lot of these places interviewing is a boy's club, and some people have a dad/uncle/father in law who is a partner at a similarly ranked law firm giving them in's. Other people happened to have been genetically able to play a sport in college or have something else that jumps them ahead of the pack.

Suggesting that getting an offer is 100% in one's control as in top grades, amazing work experience and solid interviewing will always lead to an offer is false. There are many factors that will in no way influence one's success as a lawyer in practice that come into play.

If you know you will reject a firm, keeping it open is dick. I understand you must be happy where you work, but having 1 offer versus striking out is life changing whereas being unsure if you want to commute to neighborhood A vs neighborhood B is not.

gregfootball2001
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Re: Have an offer? Do the rest of us a favor...

Postby gregfootball2001 » Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:48 am

Anonymous User wrote:Not sure if you're trolling, but some people have the grades and work experience and have improved their interviewing as much as they can. At a lot of these places interviewing is a boy's club, and some people have a dad/uncle/father in law who is a partner at a similarly ranked law firm giving them in's. Other people happened to have been genetically able to play a sport in college or have something else that jumps them ahead of the pack.

Suggesting that getting an offer is 100% in one's control as in top grades, amazing work experience and solid interviewing will always lead to an offer is false. There are many factors that will in no way influence one's success as a lawyer in practice that come into play.

If you know you will reject a firm, keeping it open is dick. I understand you must be happy where you work, but having 1 offer versus striking out is life changing whereas being unsure if you want to commute to neighborhood A vs neighborhood B is not.


And yet it's remarkable - the top ten or fifteen people at my school all have offers, and many others do as well! I know, they're all (even the women) part of the boy's club. In fact, I have a sneaking suspicion that they were picked out from the beginning as those who would receive the top grades because of connections. /s

I can't speak to other markets, but in the one I've targeted, if you don't have an offer, you don't have one or more of grades/WE/good interviewing skills. Uncle Joe isn't coming into play for 95% of these people. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Also, not really sure why that post needed to be anonymous.

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Elston Gunn
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Re: Have an offer? Do the rest of us a favor...

Postby Elston Gunn » Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:03 am

gregfootball2001 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Not sure if you're trolling, but some people have the grades and work experience and have improved their interviewing as much as they can. At a lot of these places interviewing is a boy's club, and some people have a dad/uncle/father in law who is a partner at a similarly ranked law firm giving them in's. Other people happened to have been genetically able to play a sport in college or have something else that jumps them ahead of the pack.

Suggesting that getting an offer is 100% in one's control as in top grades, amazing work experience and solid interviewing will always lead to an offer is false. There are many factors that will in no way influence one's success as a lawyer in practice that come into play.

If you know you will reject a firm, keeping it open is dick. I understand you must be happy where you work, but having 1 offer versus striking out is life changing whereas being unsure if you want to commute to neighborhood A vs neighborhood B is not.


And yet it's remarkable - the top ten or fifteen people at my school all have offers, and many others do as well! I know, they're all (even the women) part of the boy's club. In fact, I have a sneaking suspicion that they were picked out from the beginning as those who would receive the top grades because of connections. /s

I can't speak to other markets, but in the one I've targeted, if you don't have an offer, you don't have one or more of grades/WE/good interviewing skills. Uncle Joe isn't coming into play for 95% of these people. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Also, not really sure why that post needed to be anonymous.

Yeah, dude, everyone without offers should've just been in the top ten or fifteen people in their school. Bros from my high school did it all the time.

Anonymous User
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Re: Have an offer? Do the rest of us a favor...

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:12 am

Anonymous User wrote:At a lot of these places interviewing is a boy's club, and some people have a dad/uncle/father in law who is a partner at a similarly ranked law firm giving them in's.


This is ridiculous. I'm not convinced it has that much of an impact in the first place, and I think that even if it did, a networking connection has more of an impact (which you can get from emailing random people at the firm and going to lunch). Networking shows that you have an early interest in the firm, and puts someone on your side. Anyone can do that..

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Re: Have an offer? Do the rest of us a favor...

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:15 am

I don't exactly agree with OP, but as someone who had a 1L SA (exit interview was very positive; firm is supposed to notify me any day about whether I have offer to return next summer, but hasn't yet), 4 callbacks, and still has 0 offers it is a very frustrating situation to be in.

I'm at a non-T14 but very reputable T1 school where I graded onto law review. I consider myself a pretty good interviewer. I'm mass mailing like crazy, and I have two interviews next week lined up. But I really didn't expect that the job search would be this hard given that I have top grades, went to very good school undergrad, etc. I guess I was somewhat naive.

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Re: Have an offer? Do the rest of us a favor...

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:06 am

I know the feeling of striking out... I struck out last year. Nevertheless, what OP is asking is probably not going to help you or helped me. Whether someone makes the decision on their offers now or later, will not affect how many people firms will hire. At most it will affect whether they will be a resume collect in late September, October or November.
If you are striking out now, rather than begging classmates to cancel CB's or reject offers, mass mail, mass mail, mass mail, mass mail...




did i mention MASS MAIL????????????

Gorki
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Re: Have an offer? Do the rest of us a favor...

Postby Gorki » Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:15 am

Think this thread is good enuff evidence for future 0Ls to stay the hell out of lawl. There are two big groups: jobless students who are insufferably depressing, people with jobs who are oblivious to their lucky position in life and insufferably arrogant. These groupings persist into practice. Buyers beware.

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Re: Have an offer? Do the rest of us a favor...

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:18 am

Gorki wrote:Think this thread is good enuff evidence for future 0Ls to stay the hell out of lawl. There are two big groups: jobless students who are insufferably depressing, people with jobs who are oblivious to their lucky position in life and insufferably arrogant. These groupings persist into practice. Buyers beware.


I love the people who tell me that as a 3L I should not work hard, assuming, I guess, that I have a job....

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Icculus
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Re: Have an offer? Do the rest of us a favor...

Postby Icculus » Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:53 am

Gorki wrote:Think this thread is good enuff evidence for future 0Ls to stay the hell out of lawl. There are two big groups: jobless students who are insufferably depressing, people with jobs who are oblivious to their lucky position in life and insufferably arrogant. These groupings persist into practice. Buyers beware.


I would point out many people I know with jobs realize how lucky we are. I went into OCI fully aware I could strike out. I started mass mailing in late July/early August before OCI started. I I know plenty of people who struck out who had decent grades/WE/ and were personable. For people here who claim that those without jobs are inferior in some way, fuck you. There is more luck that goes into it than you know. Even outside of law when I applied for jobs in my previous industry I would maybe get one interview for every 50-100 resumes I sent and even I ended up with one job offer that I took. I don't know why it is so hard for people to understand how hiring works. A lot of it, the majority, is stuff totally outside the applicants control.




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