Split Summer: pros and cons

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Split Summer: pros and cons

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:13 pm

I am thinking to split between V5 NYC and a TX firm. V5 -offer rate is 100%, TX firm - 85-95%. I would take a TX firm right away, but 85% offer rate makes me nervous. Any thoughts? pros and cons? I remember reading that it could hurt my chances. What is the best way to arrange a split summer with the least damage to my chances?

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Re: Split Summer: pros and cons

Postby rad lulz » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:18 pm

I wouldn't recommend splitting unless it's the norm in the market honestly. It's too risky to piss someone off at one firm that doesn't usually split, making you look like you're not committed. Furthermore, if you screw up an assignment (and you may, despite your best efforts), it's a lot harder to come back. Maybe you'll be saved by going V5, because those firms like to do 100% offers every year almost without fail, but I'd really be cautious.

Only exception being if that TX firm was your 1L firm and they only want you to come back for 2 weeks or whatever.

And for the record I'd take the V5. 100% bro. Texas ain't goin anywhere.

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Re: Split Summer: pros and cons

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:24 pm

I love TX and will probably end up there, but if I were in your shoes, I would just go to the V5. 100% is 100%.

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Re: Split Summer: pros and cons

Postby badaboom61 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:26 pm

Unless you can arrange the split so that you work the entire length of the V5's program and then go to the TX firm, I would take the V5. Guaranteed employment --> lateral to Texas in a few years is a much better option than 85% chance at employment in TX.

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Re: Split Summer: pros and cons

Postby bk1 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:28 pm

badaboom61 wrote:Unless you can arrange the split so that you work the entire length of the V5's program and then go to the TX firm, I would take the V5. Guaranteed employment --> lateral to Texas in a few years is a much better option than 85% chance at employment in TX.

+1

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Re: Split Summer: pros and cons

Postby 2014 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:29 pm

The problem is that if the V5 is looking to cold offer anyone due to overhiring, your odds of being that person are not 1/120 or however big the class size is, they are much higher because you are the person who is pick one of less committed, less memorable, the easiest target, etc. Ultimately I think it probably would work out, but given how important it is to get a job offer, I personally would be risk averse and go for the full thing.

Do you have another Texas option instead of the V5? I think your chances would be better working at two firms that are used to splitting and would thus have no reason to be offended by your split.

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Re: Split Summer: pros and cons

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:15 pm

Honestly, if they'll let you I wouldn't worry about it. I know that's not the super risk-averse law student thing to say, but they aren't going to say "sure, split" and then turn around and no-offer you for it. The only scenario where it hurts you is if they're waffling anyhow. So just go do good hard work and be pleasant and sociable. It probably won't be an issue.

I think the amount it might hurt you is very small, and the very good odds of getting an offer in a market you'd rather be in arent something to discount. Working in NY isn't equivalent to working in TX, and TX is a far better gig money and (usually) hours wise if you like living there.

Is it taking on a little risk? Yes, but again-- a little. Huge upside though. I'd say do it in a heartbeat.

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Re: Split Summer: pros and cons

Postby rad lulz » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:but they aren't going to say "sure, split" and then turn around and no-offer you for it.

I have heard this rationale given for a no-offer to at least 2 people

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Re: Split Summer: pros and cons

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I am thinking to split between V5 NYC and a TX firm. V5 -offer rate is 100%, TX firm - 85-95%. I would take a TX firm right away, but 85% offer rate makes me nervous. Any thoughts? pros and cons? I remember reading that it could hurt my chances. What is the best way to arrange a split summer with the least damage to my chances?


I know a lot of people are saying they would no doubt take the V5, but I disagree. If you want to end up in Texas, start there. No point in losing out on money, contacts with partners and other associates, etc. Yeah, you could probably lateral to Texas later, but right now you likely have your choice of firms. It also gives you a summer to make sure you like it.

In full disclosure, I had 2 V5 offers, and I chose to go only Texas. Very happy with my decision. If you dont think you want to end up in Texas, go V5, if you know you want to end up in NY you are crazy not to just start there, unless you really want to experience NY. If you are smart enough to get a V5, go to TX work hard, you wont get no offered.

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Re: Split Summer: pros and cons

Postby rad lulz » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I am thinking to split between V5 NYC and a TX firm. V5 -offer rate is 100%, TX firm - 85-95%. I would take a TX firm right away, but 85% offer rate makes me nervous. Any thoughts? pros and cons? I remember reading that it could hurt my chances. What is the best way to arrange a split summer with the least damage to my chances?


I know a lot of people are saying they would no doubt take the V5, but I disagree. If you want to end up in Texas, start there. No point in losing out on money, contacts with partners and other associates, etc. Yeah, you could probably lateral to Texas later, but right now you likely have your choice of firms. It also gives you a summer to make sure you like it.

In full disclosure, I had 2 V5 offers, and I chose to go only Texas. Very happy with my decision. If you dont think you want to end up in Texas, go V5, if you know you want to end up in NY you are crazy not to just start there, unless you really want to experience NY. If you are smart enough to get a V5, go to TX work hard, you wont get no offered.

Some of these no offer rates at certain TX firms in recent years have been like 65% (Baker Botts a couple years ago?). I seriously doubt 35% of the people just weren't working hard enough.

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Re: Split Summer: pros and cons

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:26 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I am thinking to split between V5 NYC and a TX firm. V5 -offer rate is 100%, TX firm - 85-95%. I would take a TX firm right away, but 85% offer rate makes me nervous. Any thoughts? pros and cons? I remember reading that it could hurt my chances. What is the best way to arrange a split summer with the least damage to my chances?


I know a lot of people are saying they would no doubt take the V5, but I disagree. If you want to end up in Texas, start there. No point in losing out on money, contacts with partners and other associates, etc. Yeah, you could probably lateral to Texas later, but right now you likely have your choice of firms. It also gives you a summer to make sure you like it.

In full disclosure, I had 2 V5 offers, and I chose to go only Texas. Very happy with my decision. If you dont think you want to end up in Texas, go V5, if you know you want to end up in NY you are crazy not to just start there, unless you really want to experience NY. If you are smart enough to get a V5, go to TX work hard, you wont get no offered.

Some of these no offer rates at certain TX firms in recent years have been like 65% (Baker Botts a couple years ago?). I seriously doubt 35% of the people just weren't working hard enough.


This. I know people who got no offered, and it wasn't a question of them being smart enough or hard working enough. You took a chance where you had an 80-85% chance of succeeding, and you won. Had you been on the losing end, your advice might be a little different.

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Re: Split Summer: pros and cons

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:39 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I am thinking to split between V5 NYC and a TX firm. V5 -offer rate is 100%, TX firm - 85-95%. I would take a TX firm right away, but 85% offer rate makes me nervous. Any thoughts? pros and cons? I remember reading that it could hurt my chances. What is the best way to arrange a split summer with the least damage to my chances?


I know a lot of people are saying they would no doubt take the V5, but I disagree. If you want to end up in Texas, start there. No point in losing out on money, contacts with partners and other associates, etc. Yeah, you could probably lateral to Texas later, but right now you likely have your choice of firms. It also gives you a summer to make sure you like it.

In full disclosure, I had 2 V5 offers, and I chose to go only Texas. Very happy with my decision. If you dont think you want to end up in Texas, go V5, if you know you want to end up in NY you are crazy not to just start there, unless you really want to experience NY. If you are smart enough to get a V5, go to TX work hard, you wont get no offered.

Some of these no offer rates at certain TX firms in recent years have been like 65% (Baker Botts a couple years ago?). I seriously doubt 35% of the people just weren't working hard enough.


No. Yes during the crash the offer rates were in the 70-80% range (not a no offer of 65%). I am also assuming that OP means one of the Big 3/AK, BG, Latham. Now you can expect the offer rate to be about 95% I have worked at Texas firms, it is really yours to lose when you go in. Sometimes the no offers are purely grade based when someone from UofH has their grades drop hard. If you are at a T14, you dont have to worry about this as long as you stay above median. I was at 2 firms last summer. 1 had 100% and the other was well over 95%

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Re: Split Summer: pros and cons

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:49 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:but they aren't going to say "sure, split" and then turn around and no-offer you for it.

I have heard this rationale given for a no-offer to at least 2 people


That's a completely useless factoid without context as to whether those firms were otherwise 100% offer rates, whether there were other factors militating toward a no-offer (which let's be honest your acquaintances probably wouldn't bring up), etc. And are we talking two people you know personally, or two people you read about on TLS? Sample sizes are important here. Again, there's some risk you're adding, as I stated above. But thinking only about risk is kind of dumb, especially if the OP would substantially prefer to be in Texas for personal reasons (on top of the pretty huge tax/COL differential).

Anonymous User wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I am thinking to split between V5 NYC and a TX firm. V5 -offer rate is 100%, TX firm - 85-95%. I would take a TX firm right away, but 85% offer rate makes me nervous. Any thoughts? pros and cons? I remember reading that it could hurt my chances. What is the best way to arrange a split summer with the least damage to my chances?


I know a lot of people are saying they would no doubt take the V5, but I disagree. If you want to end up in Texas, start there. No point in losing out on money, contacts with partners and other associates, etc. Yeah, you could probably lateral to Texas later, but right now you likely have your choice of firms. It also gives you a summer to make sure you like it.

In full disclosure, I had 2 V5 offers, and I chose to go only Texas. Very happy with my decision. If you dont think you want to end up in Texas, go V5, if you know you want to end up in NY you are crazy not to just start there, unless you really want to experience NY. If you are smart enough to get a V5, go to TX work hard, you wont get no offered.

Some of these no offer rates at certain TX firms in recent years have been like 65% (Baker Botts a couple years ago?). I seriously doubt 35% of the people just weren't working hard enough.


No. Yes during the crash the offer rates were in the 70-80% range (not a no offer of 65%). I am also assuming that OP means one of the Big 3/AK, BG, Latham. Now you can expect the offer rate to be about 95% I have worked at Texas firms, it is really yours to lose when you go in. Sometimes the no offers are purely grade based when someone from UofH has their grades drop hard. If you are at a T14, you dont have to worry about this as long as you stay above median. I was at 2 firms last summer. 1 had 100% and the other was well over 95%


BB last year was in the mid-80s if NALP is accurate, but several of the others are somewhat higher. And for whatever it's worth I know of at least a few no-offers that are due literally exactly to the bolded in the quote above.

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Re: Split Summer: pros and cons

Postby rad lulz » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I am thinking to split between V5 NYC and a TX firm. V5 -offer rate is 100%, TX firm - 85-95%. I would take a TX firm right away, but 85% offer rate makes me nervous. Any thoughts? pros and cons? I remember reading that it could hurt my chances. What is the best way to arrange a split summer with the least damage to my chances?


I know a lot of people are saying they would no doubt take the V5, but I disagree. If you want to end up in Texas, start there. No point in losing out on money, contacts with partners and other associates, etc. Yeah, you could probably lateral to Texas later, but right now you likely have your choice of firms. It also gives you a summer to make sure you like it.

In full disclosure, I had 2 V5 offers, and I chose to go only Texas. Very happy with my decision. If you dont think you want to end up in Texas, go V5, if you know you want to end up in NY you are crazy not to just start there, unless you really want to experience NY. If you are smart enough to get a V5, go to TX work hard, you wont get no offered.

Some of these no offer rates at certain TX firms in recent years have been like 65% (Baker Botts a couple years ago?). I seriously doubt 35% of the people just weren't working hard enough.


No. Yes during the crash the offer rates were in the 70-80% range (not a no offer of 65%). I am also assuming that OP means one of the Big 3/AK, BG, Latham. Now you can expect the offer rate to be about 95% I have worked at Texas firms, it is really yours to lose when you go in. Sometimes the no offers are purely grade based when someone from UofH has their grades drop hard. If you are at a T14, you dont have to worry about this as long as you stay above median. I was at 2 firms last summer. 1 had 100% and the other was well over 95%

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=202196#p6446516

My number was off, but 80% (or 85% in OPs case) is more than enough to raise eyebrows

I know a couple very capable people who got no-offered in TX from at least one of their halves and one person who got no-offered from both (not Houston kids)

Every firm tells you it's yours to lose when you go in. Statistics in this case suggest that's not true. 100% is 100%. I wouldn't fuck around with your 2L summer

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Re: Split Summer: pros and cons

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:59 pm

OP I was in your shoes last year. I had an offer for a 2nd half firm in TX and from a V10 in NY. Ultimately, I chose not to split and just spend the whole summer w/ the NY firm. I was somewhat afraid of being no offered and I also was fairly sure I'd prefer to begin my career in NY than in TX. I don't regret my decision at all, but I think my fears of being no offered due to splitting were pretty baseless.

I really don't think that a V5 is going to no offer you for splitting. I was surprised by the number of people at my V10 that split. Probably around 10 ppl, and there's no way they all got no/cold offered.

My advice to you would be to split. See what life is like at these 2 firms and decide where you would rather start. This is a big decision and you're lucky to have the opportunity to experience 2 very different firms/markets/lifestyles. Good luck

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Re: Split Summer: pros and cons

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:36 am

As a graduate looking for a job, there is absolutely no way I would hurt my chances at a firm with a 100% offer rate. Go there, enjoy it for a couple of years, and then explore lateral options to Texas or wherever you want to be. Exit options from a V5 should be pretty good.

Gambling with a no offer in this situation is foolish.

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Re: Split Summer: pros and cons

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:55 am

I think the risk aversion, while not uncommon among law students, may be overstated.

Speaking from the other side, people from top 25 schools who did not receive an offer either had severe social interaction issues (usually more than one instance and usually noted by multiple people) or had work product that fell substantially below expectations (again, usually noted by multiple practice groups). That being said, a priori, it is obviously safer to take 100% shot at employment vs. an 85% shot at employment because you never know whether you will be the one whose work product is considered particularly bad or if you will annoy the wrong person.

Living in NY and Texas is not really comparable (at least in my opinion). I chose to work in Texas and not in NYC because the prospect of working full time and living NYC did not appeal to me on balance when compared with living and working in Texas - so from that perspective, not sure that it's a fair comparison to make. 100% offer rate vs 85% offer rate is a consideration, but the magnitude changes depending on whether you are indifferent to working in NYC vs Texas or whether you have a strong preference to work in Texas instead.

Also, based solely on anecdotal evidence, while it is certainly possible to lateral to Texas out of NYC, it is by no means a surefire thing. It depends on practice group needs, personality fit, etc. It also (again, only based on anecdotal evidence) not helpful for partnership chances, particularly the longer you wait to lateral. Partnership prospects are largely relationship based (who is going to go to bat for you), and the less time you have to cultivate those relationships, the more difficult the process. It's by no means impossible, and prospects are still likely much better than they would be at a V5, but it is a consideration if you know you want to end up in Texas eventually.

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Re: Split Summer: pros and cons

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:25 pm

OP here. Thanks, everybody. I am not sure now that split summer is such a good idea after all. I am only wondering if there is any info on what schools those TX no-offers come from? Would coming from a TX school help? Or HYS SAs have better chances? Does it make any difference at all?

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Re: Split Summer: pros and cons

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:03 am

Anonymous User wrote:OP here. Thanks, everybody. I am not sure now that split summer is such a good idea after all. I am only wondering if there is any info on what schools those TX no-offers come from? Would coming from a TX school help? Or HYS SAs have better chances? Does it make any difference at all?


Being from a T14/UT is definitely beneficial. Seriously, most no offers are lower ranked schools having big grade drops. I know people are saying be careful, but if you are socially personable, and have good grades from a top school (which you do since you got V5) then you have nothing to worry about...as long as you dont do anything stupid this summer.

Also, you can split two Texas firms. This will not hurt your chances at an offer at all. Being in NYC for the split could possibly hurt if they think you dont want TX.

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Re: Split Summer: pros and cons

Postby rad lulz » Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:06 am

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Last edited by rad lulz on Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Split Summer: pros and cons

Postby bk1 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:52 am

Anonymous User wrote:Being from a T14/UT is definitely beneficial. Seriously, most no offers are lower ranked schools having big grade drops.

I highly doubt you have any idea the reason for the majority of no offers. My intuition is that your reason doesn't come anywhere close to being the majority of no offers but I'm talking out of my ass just as much as you are.

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Re: Split Summer: pros and cons

Postby badaboom61 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:06 am

bk1 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Being from a T14/UT is definitely beneficial. Seriously, most no offers are lower ranked schools having big grade drops.

I highly doubt you have any idea the reason for the majority of no offers. My intuition is that your reason doesn't come anywhere close to being the majority of no offers but I'm talking out of my ass just as much as you are.


Since we're talking through largely useless anecdotal knowledge, I'll chirp in that I knew a guy with consistently decent grades from CCN who had no work product / social issues, but he wasn't from Texas, and the limited number offers that year went to local people and people who went to the same law schools as the partners.

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Re: Split Summer: pros and cons

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:43 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here. Thanks, everybody. I am not sure now that split summer is such a good idea after all. I am only wondering if there is any info on what schools those TX no-offers come from? Would coming from a TX school help? Or HYS SAs have better chances? Does it make any difference at all?


Being from a T14/UT is definitely beneficial. Seriously, most no offers are lower ranked schools having big grade drops. I know people are saying be careful, but if you are socially personable, and have good grades from a top school (which you do since you got V5) then you have nothing to worry about...as long as you dont do anything stupid this summer.

Also, you can split two Texas firms. This will not hurt your chances at an offer at all. Being in NYC for the split could possibly hurt if they think you dont want TX.


I'm at MVP and someone in the know at my school told me a couple of our students were no-offered by a TX firm in past summers.

Edit: And it wasn't because they were super awkward or had bad performance reviews.

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Re: Split Summer: pros and cons

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:13 am

OP here again. I am at HYS. I have a decent job experience in TX. But though I have lived in TX for the last 5 years, I am not a local boy. I speak with an accent. Not a strong one, but enough to raise eyebrows every now and then. I am not overly “socially personable” and can be a bit socially clumsy (not obnoxious), but still able to create decent job relations when people get to know me enough. I don’t have any ties to NYC. My family is here. I love TX. Money is twice as good. I would prefer to stay in TX. Any thoughts?

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Re: Split Summer: pros and cons

Postby rad lulz » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:17 am

Anonymous User wrote:OP here again. I am at HYS. I have a decent job experience in TX. But though I have lived in TX for the last 5 years, I am not a local boy. I speak with an accent. Not a strong one, but enough to raise brows every now and then. I am not overly “socially personable” and can be a bit socially clumsy (not obnoxious), but still able to create decent job relations when people get to know me enough. I don’t have any ties to NYC. My family is here. I love TX. Money is twice as good. I would prefer to stay in TX. Any thoughts?

I'd feel more comfortable if you were splitting w another TX firm

I do know of one person who did get the double no offer though. Probably very uncommon.

But of it means that much to you




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