V10 offer with median grades, here to help however I can

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beattheodds
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V10 offer with median grades, here to help however I can

Postby beattheodds » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:28 pm

So I'm definitely no OCI whiz, but I ended up at a firm with a GPA cutoff that was considerably higher than mine. I've been freaking out about jobs since day 1 of 1L, and I totally empathize with those of you who are frustrated and still looking. This whole process sucks, but I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have. A little about myself:

Lower T-14 (anywhere from UVA to Gtown)
Median-ish grades
Secondary journal
No moot court/mock trial
Non-URM
No technical degree
Went straight through

If anyone has any questions (screeners, callbacks, wtv.) feel free to respond or PM me.
Last edited by beattheodds on Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: V-10 offer, median grades. Here to help however I can

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:43 pm

Are you tall and hot?

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AntipodeanPhil
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Re: V-10 offer, median grades. Here to help however I can

Postby AntipodeanPhil » Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Are you tall and hot?

+ 1

I think we need to see a photo before this goes any further.

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wiz
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Re: V10 offer with median grades, here to help however I can

Postby wiz » Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:31 pm

What do you think made you stand out from other candidates? How did you prepare for callbacks?

And:

Anonymous User wrote:Are you tall and hot?

badaboom61
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Re: V10 offer with median grades, here to help however I can

Postby badaboom61 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:45 pm

Congrats on the offer, but I'm not sure this is that unusual. Some V10 firms, notably Kirkland (NY) and Latham, are not actually that grade selective relatively speaking. I'm sure you're a very good interviewer, but I doubt you'll be the only person at your firm this summer that is median K-JD at a lower T14.

mr.hands
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Re: V10 offer with median grades, here to help however I can

Postby mr.hands » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:14 am

badaboom61 wrote:Congrats on the offer, but I'm not sure this is that unusual. Some V10 firms, notably Kirkland (NY) and Latham, are not actually that grade selective relatively speaking. I'm sure you're a very good interviewer, but I doubt you'll be the only person at your firm this summer that is median K-JD at a lower T14.


I agree. Not uncommon, actually (especially w/ Kirkland and Ellis)

Also, just as a note, URM status is MUCH broader in legal employment than law school admission. Just because someone doesn't get a boost for admission doesn't mean they won't in employment.

beattheodds
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Re: V10 offer with median grades, here to help however I can

Postby beattheodds » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:09 am

Meh, 5'11. Unless you're hot, then yes I am a 6'4 former D1 middle linebacker :mrgreen:

Unless we're using a 1930s Third Reich metric, pretty sure I didn't get anything as far as URM status.

And like I said, don't claim to be an OCI whiz. I'm sure crazier things have happened, but from speaking with fellow students in my GPA range and seeing the students that this firm has given out offers to in the past what happened to me was definitely not common.

Not trying to play God, I suffered disappointments like everyone else. But I beat a lot of people's expectations (fellow students, career advisor, my own) and if anyone has any questions I'd be happy to answer them.

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Re: V10 offer with median grades, here to help however I can

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:12 am

beattheodds wrote:Meh, 5'11. Unless you're hot, then yes I am a 6'4 former D1 middle linebacker :mrgreen:

Unless we're using a 1930s Third Reich metric, pretty sure I didn't get anything as far as URM status.

And like I said, don't claim to be an OCI whiz. I'm sure crazier things have happened, but from speaking with fellow students in my GPA range and seeing the students that this firm has given out offers to in the past what happened to me was definitely not common.

Not trying to play God, I suffered disappointments like everyone else. But I beat a lot of people's expectations (fellow students, career advisor, my own) and if anyone has any questions I'd be happy to answer them.


Have you seen anyone around median grade at non-HYSCCN get V5 or maybe even WLRK/S&C/CSM? What's the upper limit for a non-URM candidate with those stats?

beattheodds
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Re: V10 offer with median grades, here to help however I can

Postby beattheodds » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:33 am

I've heard of DPW callbacks, and I know Skadden has given offers to around 3.4 (though I don't know if it was URM or not). Again, there's a lot of factors to weigh (ties to an area, technical degree, etc.)

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thelawyler
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Re: V10 offer with median grades, here to help however I can

Postby thelawyler » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:28 pm

Given that most people are already mostly through their interview season, a thread like this would be more useful in about 9 months for next year.

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Re: V10 offer with median grades, here to help however I can

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:04 pm

1. you haven't told us or laid out what you felt brought you success. What is your sense of your x factors?

2. if it's your ability to interview, can you give general and callback tips? What is your style on screeners and callbacks? Are you conversational, do you get personal with interviewers, do you sell yourself and how? How much prep do you do for each interview? How much research into the firm? Did you network outside of the interview process?

helfer snooterbagon
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Re: V10 offer with median grades, here to help however I can

Postby helfer snooterbagon » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:24 pm

What information could you provide? People who post about having great stats and not getting offers cannot provide much advice about how to avoid encountering a similar predicament, what could you tell me that would help me? Glad that it worked out, but this is similar to the bunch of threads that will come out at the end of the semester/end of the year with people posting how they did well in law school.

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Re: V10 offer with median grades, here to help however I can

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:14 pm

3.2X, MVP K-JD. 28 Screeners total, 7 callbacks offered, 5 callbacks accepted, 4 offers (1 V40, 1 V50, 2 V100).

Hustled throughout the summer with alumni from various firms, great interviewer. Speaking to alumni helped to answer why this firm, I think that a good answer to that can go a long way. +1 If the alumni you speak to says they will contact the recruiter to say good things about you.

Sometimes, you also have to take charge of the interview. If you are an okay interviewer, take charge and sell yourself. These are the skills I have, this is how it would be valuable to a firm like yours.

Try to show that you have an idea of what you're doing in your life. When I say that, I mean hey I'm interested in transactional work. I took X courses last semester and I really liked that, i'm taking this next semester. Take an interest in that persons work. My best interviews were the ones were we talked about complex areas of law that I had researched or taken a class on. (Make sure that what you're advocating is something the firm does obviously...).

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Re: V10 offer with median grades, here to help however I can

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Have you seen anyone around median grade at non-HYSCCN get V5 or maybe even WLRK/S&C/CSM? What's the upper limit for a non-URM candidate with those stats?


Different anon: I know people with top thirdish grades who have landed V5 NYC offers from T10 schools.

The selectivity profiles at these firms is all very different, mind you. It's not easy to get a job at each, but the difficulty comes in different forms/at different stages.

WLRK is a small firm and obviously popular, so it's obscenely selective. Cravath is very grade picky from schools "lower" on the totem pole but will take (almost) anyone with a pulse and a T6 JD. They're also one of the only firms to ask for undergrad grades, but it's hard to say how much they actually matter. Skadden recruiting... they might not even require a JD. Insert jokes at Skadden's expense here. S&C recruits from a relatively wide range of schools considering its eliteness, but has stringent grade standards from all of them and has an extremely high (near 100%) CB -> offer ratio. DPW isn't nearly as grade snobbish but is very fit snobbish, recruits from a smaller batch of 'top' schools, and historically has a lower CB -> offer ratio than its peer firms.

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Re: V10 offer with median grades, here to help however I can

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Have you seen anyone around median grade at non-HYSCCN get V5 or maybe even WLRK/S&C/CSM? What's the upper limit for a non-URM candidate with those stats?


Different anon: I know people with top thirdish grades who have landed V5 NYC offers from T10 schools.

The selectivity profiles at these firms is all very different, mind you. It's not easy to get a job at each, but the difficulty comes in different forms/at different stages.

WLRK is a small firm and obviously popular, so it's obscenely selective. Cravath is very grade picky from schools "lower" on the totem pole but will take (almost) anyone with a pulse and a T6 JD. They're also one of the only firms to ask for undergrad grades, but it's hard to say how much they actually matter. Skadden recruiting... they might not even require a JD. Insert jokes at Skadden's expense here. S&C recruits from a relatively wide range of schools considering its eliteness, but has stringent grade standards from all of them and has an extremely high (near 100%) CB -> offer ratio. DPW isn't nearly as grade snobbish but is very fit snobbish, recruits from a smaller batch of 'top' schools, and historically has a lower CB -> offer ratio than its peer firms.


Some of this is categorically not true. I go to a CCN. Pretty much 80-90% of the people that got offers to V5's from my school are in the top third of the class. For example, at Cravath, 97% of the offers given were for people in the top 3rd. Simply having a T6 JD is not enoughh

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Re: V10 offer with median grades, here to help however I can

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Have you seen anyone around median grade at non-HYSCCN get V5 or maybe even WLRK/S&C/CSM? What's the upper limit for a non-URM candidate with those stats?


Different anon: I know people with top thirdish grades who have landed V5 NYC offers from T10 schools.

The selectivity profiles at these firms is all very different, mind you. It's not easy to get a job at each, but the difficulty comes in different forms/at different stages.

WLRK is a small firm and obviously popular, so it's obscenely selective. Cravath is very grade picky from schools "lower" on the totem pole but will take (almost) anyone with a pulse and a T6 JD. They're also one of the only firms to ask for undergrad grades, but it's hard to say how much they actually matter. Skadden recruiting... they might not even require a JD. Insert jokes at Skadden's expense here. S&C recruits from a relatively wide range of schools considering its eliteness, but has stringent grade standards from all of them and has an extremely high (near 100%) CB -> offer ratio. DPW isn't nearly as grade snobbish but is very fit snobbish, recruits from a smaller batch of 'top' schools, and historically has a lower CB -> offer ratio than its peer firms.


Some of this is categorically not true. I go to a CCN. Pretty much 80-90% of the people that got offers to V5's from my school are in the top third of the class. For example, at Cravath, 97% of the offers given were for people in the top 3rd. Simply having a T6 JD is not enoughh


Believe it or not, that's what I meant. In some recent years Cravath was taking people in the top 5%ish at some T10s and not recruiting at even all of the top ~20 or so schools but top third(ish) at CCN was enough to be taken seriously; the point is that looking into the top third is really not that selective all things considered.

I hope you'll forgive my hyperbole :lol:

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Re: V10 offer with median grades, here to help however I can

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:03 pm

Slightly above median (CCN) and had an offer at S&C.

There are ways to be the exception.

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Re: V10 offer with median grades, here to help however I can

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Some of this is categorically not true. I go to a CCN. Pretty much 80-90% of the people that got offers to V5's from my school are in the top third of the class. For example, at Cravath, 97% of the offers given were for people in the top 3rd. Simply having a T6 JD is not enoughh


Believe it or not, that's what I meant. In some recent years Cravath was taking people in the top 5%ish at some T10s and not recruiting at even all of the top ~20 or so schools but top third(ish) at CCN was enough to be taken seriously; the point is that looking into the top third is really not that selective all things considered.

I hope you'll forgive my hyperbole :lol:

Huh? This doesn't make sense.

Also, I would point out that, even at Yale, both Cravath and Skadden NY make offers to less than 50% of the students that do screening interviews with them (even accounting for the fact that some students decline CB invitations). Since grades are little better than useless at Yale, they're obviously doing a fair amount of personality screening.

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Re: V10 offer with median grades, here to help however I can

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Have you seen anyone around median grade at non-HYSCCN get V5 or maybe even WLRK/S&C/CSM? What's the upper limit for a non-URM candidate with those stats?


Different anon: I know people with top thirdish grades who have landed V5 NYC offers from T10 schools.

The selectivity profiles at these firms is all very different, mind you. It's not easy to get a job at each, but the difficulty comes in different forms/at different stages.

WLRK is a small firm and obviously popular, so it's obscenely selective. Cravath is very grade picky from schools "lower" on the totem pole but will take (almost) anyone with a pulse and a T6 JD. They're also one of the only firms to ask for undergrad grades, but it's hard to say how much they actually matter. Skadden recruiting... they might not even require a JD. Insert jokes at Skadden's expense here. S&C recruits from a relatively wide range of schools considering its eliteness, but has stringent grade standards from all of them and has an extremely high (near 100%) CB -> offer ratio. DPW isn't nearly as grade snobbish but is very fit snobbish, recruits from a smaller batch of 'top' schools, and historically has a lower CB -> offer ratio than its peer firms.


Some of this is categorically not true. I go to a CCN. Pretty much 80-90% of the people that got offers to V5's from my school are in the top third of the class. For example, at Cravath, 97% of the offers given were for people in the top 3rd. Simply having a T6 JD is not enoughh


Believe it or not, that's what I meant. In some recent years Cravath was taking people in the top 5%ish at some T10s and not recruiting at even all of the top ~20 or so schools but top third(ish) at CCN was enough to be taken seriously; the point is that looking into the top third is really not that selective all things considered.

I hope you'll forgive my hyperbole :lol:


CCN as well - 85% of our Cravath offers last year went to people who were top 25%. They also take a big Fordham contingent each year. Each firm is different.

That said, most of my core group of friends ended up with V5 offers (and it seems like everyone has at least one v10). It seems to be a bit of a numbers game - you're only going to end up at one firm, whether you get offers at 1 or 10 of the v10.

Other things to remember include: the summer classes at these places are huge, and there are so many good students.

Top third is and isn't hard - your competition is serious at t6 schools and lots of shit can happen in your life that you can't control.

Is making LR at a t6 harder than

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: V10 offer with median grades, here to help however I can

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:In some recent years Cravath was taking people in the top 5%ish at some T10s and not recruiting at even all of the top ~20 or so schools but top third(ish) at CCN was enough to be taken seriously; the point is that looking into the top third is really not that selective all things considered.

I hope you'll forgive my hyperbole :lol:

OTOH Cravath was hiring twice as many summers as recently as 2008.

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Old Gregg
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Re: V10 offer with median grades, here to help however I can

Postby Old Gregg » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:59 pm

Does OP's lack of follow up prove that he/she has a massive rack?

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Danger Zone
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Re: V10 offer with median grades, here to help however I can

Postby Danger Zone » Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:04 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:Does OP's lack of follow up prove that he/she has a massive rack?

...

Image

KidStuddi
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Re: V10 offer with median grades, here to help however I can

Postby KidStuddi » Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:03 am

mr.hands wrote:
badaboom61 wrote:Congrats on the offer, but I'm not sure this is that unusual. Some V10 firms, notably Kirkland (NY) and Latham, are not actually that grade selective relatively speaking. I'm sure you're a very good interviewer, but I doubt you'll be the only person at your firm this summer that is median K-JD at a lower T14.


I agree. Not uncommon, actually (especially w/ Kirkland and Ellis)

Also, just as a note, URM status is MUCH broader in legal employment than law school admission. Just because someone doesn't get a boost for admission doesn't mean they won't in employment.


Uh. What are you basing this on exactly? Have you actually looked at BigLaw firms? They're not exactly bursting at the seams with minorities. I'd argue that being an URM matters far less in legal hiring than it does in the admissions process.

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Re: V10 offer with median grades, here to help however I can

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:11 am

"Median" does not mean the same thing at every school. Firms have grade cutoffs independent of respective GPA curves. Firms will have different cutoffs at different schools, but they correspond far more to the relative selectivity/prestigiousness of that school than to that school's respective GPA curve. For example, the curves at M, V and P are all slightly different, IIRC. With M's being the lowest and I think P's being the highest (correct me if I'm wrong). But I know for a fact that at least 4 V-20's off the top of my head have the same exact grade cutoff for those three schools.

For example at my one of MVP I know that Weil had a soft 3.3 cutoff this year. At M i'm pretty sure that is above median by a decent amount. At V and P i'm pretty sure that is AT or below median.

Therefore a "close to median student" at Penn is going to have a lot better mileage than a "close to median student" at Michigan, because the firms aren't adjusting their grade cutoffs. So saying "i'm at median, I did well, you can too" doesn't help.

beattheodds
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Re: V10 offer with median grades, here to help however I can

Postby beattheodds » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:43 am

Anonymous User wrote:"Median" does not mean the same thing at every school. Firms have grade cutoffs independent of respective GPA curves. Firms will have different cutoffs at different schools, but they correspond far more to the relative selectivity/prestigiousness of that school than to that school's respective GPA curve. For example, the curves at M, V and P are all slightly different, IIRC. With M's being the lowest and I think P's being the highest (correct me if I'm wrong). But I know for a fact that at least 4 V-20's off the top of my head have the same exact grade cutoff for those three schools.

For example at my one of MVP I know that Weil had a soft 3.3 cutoff this year. At M i'm pretty sure that is above median by a decent amount. At V and P i'm pretty sure that is AT or below median.

Therefore a "close to median student" at Penn is going to have a lot better mileage than a "close to median student" at Michigan, because the firms aren't adjusting their grade cutoffs. So saying "i'm at median, I did well, you can too" doesn't help.



OP here. Sorry, this thread was dead for a little while, I didn't realize it started back up. You're right, being at median may not necessarily mean the same thing at every lower T-14, but it definitely doesn't make you safe, and I'm pretty sure that there are median students at every such school who have struck out. And I would contest the "lot better mileage" statement: P (and other private schools in general) definitely place better when it comes to firms than M (and other public schools) but the difference isn't so significant that a partner would look at two students from each school and chuck M's resume into the trash.

Also, I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure 3.3 is the median at every T14 that has grades.




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