OCI Kvetching Time!

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Anonymous User
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OCI Kvetching Time!

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:02 am

Now OCI is over, I think it's time for kvetching about how our law schools mess things up.

I'll start with Yale's FIP:
- FAR too few firms, even in major markets. Want to work at Akin Gump? Don't go to Yale.
- No resume drops for firms that aren't interviewing (aside from for other offices of firms with hospitality suites)
- Terrible coverage of markets other than NY and DC. Of the top 50 firms by headcount in LA, just 9 showed up (and 15 of the top 100). Want to work at Skadden, MoFo, Sheppard Mullin, or Sidley in LA? Go to Harvard. NorCal is a little better, but Texas, Philly, and the Midwest (aside from Chicago) are also awful. The Southeast is almost non-existent. IIRC, precisely two firms were interviewing for the entire state of Florida, and one was a tiny Boies office. CDO, if you're reading this, please at least arrange resume drops for markets that have poor FIP coverage. There's also almost no advice about mass mailing for people whose target cities have almost no firms at FIP.

While I'm fortunate to have avoided striking out, everything was made far more stressful by FIP's poor coverage, which meant that I was playing around with a dangerously low number of CBs. Would things have been easier if I'd interviewed with NY firms? Yes. But I don't want to be in New York. Do most people ultimately get a SA offer somewhere? Yes, but for too many people, the only option is to start your career in NY and only move to where you really want to be later. We're currently in a situation where the law of small numbers means that even relatively good candidates (and my poor interviewing skills put me outside this group) risk having to go to a second-choice city because they have so few chances in their target markets.

jd20132013
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Re: OCI Kvetching Time!

Postby jd20132013 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:05 am

:roll:

Is this a privilege satire?

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: OCI Kvetching Time!

Postby Tiago Splitter » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:08 am


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Danger Zone
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Re: OCI Kvetching Time!

Postby Danger Zone » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:11 am

WHATEVER WILL YOU DO WITH YOUR MEASLY YALE DEGREE OP

ETA: oh and I see you have an offer as well. Kindly end yourself. TYIA.


Anonymous User wrote:Now OCI is over, I think it's time for kvetching about how our law schools mess things up.

I'll start with Yale's FIP:
- FAR too few firms, even in major markets. Want to work at Akin Gump? Don't go to Yale.
- No resume drops for firms that aren't interviewing (aside from for other offices of firms with hospitality suites)
- Terrible coverage of markets other than NY and DC. Of the top 50 firms by headcount in LA, just 9 showed up (and 15 of the top 100). Want to work at Skadden, MoFo, Sheppard Mullin, or Sidley in LA? Go to Harvard. NorCal is a little better, but Texas, Philly, and the Midwest (aside from Chicago) are also awful. The Southeast is almost non-existent. IIRC, precisely two firms were interviewing for the entire state of Florida, and one was a tiny Boies office. CDO, if you're reading this, please at least arrange resume drops for markets that have poor FIP coverage. There's also almost no advice about mass mailing for people whose target cities have almost no firms at FIP.

While I'm fortunate to have avoided striking out, everything was made far more stressful by FIP's poor coverage, which meant that I was playing around with a dangerously low number of CBs. Would things have been easier if I'd interviewed with NY firms? Yes. But I don't want to be in New York. Do most people ultimately get a SA offer somewhere? Yes, but for too many people, the only option is to start your career in NY and only move to where you really want to be later. We're currently in a situation where the law of small numbers means that even relatively good candidates (and my poor interviewing skills put me outside this group) risk having to go to a second-choice city because they have so few chances in their target markets.

Anonymous User
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Re: OCI Kvetching Time!

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:18 am

OP here. Look, I realize that there are far worse problems than getting paid $160k pa in a city you'd prefer not to be in. I know that people who strike out from Yale are, ceteris paribus, in a better situation than people who strike out at some other places. It's the fact that CDO doesn't seem to care about the terrible non-NY/DC coverage that really gets me - that there's zero advice, that CDO doesn't seem to do simple things that reduce the chances of people striking out or having to settle for a second-choice city. #FirstWorldProblems, maybe, but that doesn't mean it's not a problem at all, or that it isn't relevant information for people who may be choosing between Yale and another school that has better coverage of their target market.

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LeDique
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Re: OCI Kvetching Time!

Postby LeDique » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:24 am

HOW DO I GET A JOB THAT ISN'T HANDED TO ME ON A SILVER PLATTER?!

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Old Gregg
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Re: OCI Kvetching Time!

Postby Old Gregg » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:28 am

which meant that I was playing around with a dangerously low number of CBs.


Probably wasn't Yale that put you in that situation...

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Re: OCI Kvetching Time!

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:30 am

LeDique wrote:HOW DO I GET A JOB THAT ISN'T HANDED TO ME ON A SILVER PLATTER?!


OP again. I don't mind hustling, and I did mass-mail (without success) until a FIP firm gave me an offer - it's just that CDO is making things harder than they could be.

Anonymous User
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Re: OCI Kvetching Time!

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:30 am

Anonymous User wrote:- Terrible coverage of markets other than NY and DC. Of the top 50 firms by headcount in LA, just 9 showed up (and 15 of the top 100). Want to work at Skadden, MoFo, Sheppard Mullin, or Sidley in LA? Go to Harvard. NorCal is a little better, but Texas, Philly, and the Midwest (aside from Chicago) are also awful. The Southeast is almost non-existent. IIRC, precisely two firms were interviewing for the entire state of Florida, and one was a tiny Boies office. CDO, if you're reading this, please at least arrange resume drops for markets that have poor FIP coverage. There's also almost no advice about mass mailing for people whose target cities have almost no firms at FIP.

I'm with you, OP. Perhaps Chicago coverage wasn't awful, but the Chicago offices of Kirkland & Ellis (#1 in Chicago) and Mayer Brown (#4 in Chicago) were both missing - even though they interviewed for other cities. The problem, of course, is that these firms believe - quite reasonably - that they have a very low chance of getting a Yale Student. Kirkland & Ellis Chicago, for example, came to FIP until this year, but the last time they got a Yale student was 2010, despite making at least 4-5 offers each year.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: OCI Kvetching Time!

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:33 am

Fresh Prince wrote:
which meant that I was playing around with a dangerously low number of CBs.


Probably wasn't Yale that put you in that situation...


Yes, I'm not great in interviews. But I don't think my % was bad for my target market, it's just that there weren't many firms in my target market, and some of the ones that did come were tiny satellite offices that have 1 SA a year but were on the same schedule as the main office.

Anonymous User
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Re: OCI Kvetching Time!

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:35 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:- Terrible coverage of markets other than NY and DC. Of the top 50 firms by headcount in LA, just 9 showed up (and 15 of the top 100). Want to work at Skadden, MoFo, Sheppard Mullin, or Sidley in LA? Go to Harvard. NorCal is a little better, but Texas, Philly, and the Midwest (aside from Chicago) are also awful. The Southeast is almost non-existent. IIRC, precisely two firms were interviewing for the entire state of Florida, and one was a tiny Boies office. CDO, if you're reading this, please at least arrange resume drops for markets that have poor FIP coverage. There's also almost no advice about mass mailing for people whose target cities have almost no firms at FIP.

I'm with you, OP. Perhaps Chicago coverage wasn't awful, but the Chicago offices of Kirkland & Ellis (#1 in Chicago) and Mayer Brown (#4 in Chicago) were both missing - even though they interviewed for other cities. The problem, of course, is that these firms believe - quite reasonably - that they have a very low chance of getting a Yale Student. Kirkland & Ellis Chicago, for example, came to FIP until this year, but the last time they got a Yale student was 2010, despite making at least 4-5 offers each year.


Right, which is why CDO needs to organize resume drops and/or tell people about job fairs where there will be enough people to justify big firms showing up.

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Re: OCI Kvetching Time!

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:42 am

Anonymous User wrote:Right, which is why CDO needs to organize resume drops and/or tell people about job fairs where there will be enough people to justify big firms showing up.

Resume drops sound like a good idea, but are there really job fairs that most students could attend? I thought they were all targeted at certain specific groups - LGBT students, students with strong science backgrounds, students of color, etc.

Also, would be interested to know if students at schools which use resume drops think they are more effective than mass mailing.

NYstate
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Re: OCI Kvetching Time!

Postby NYstate » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:44 am

You're mad because you had to write some emails and because you didn't have every market represented at OCI? Did it occur to you that firms don't want to waste time and money chasing students who never accept their offers? At Harvard, the huge class size means they are more likely to get return on their participation in OCI.

I don't understand what you are whining about or why you are whining about it.

Anonymous User
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Re: OCI Kvetching Time!

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:49 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:- Terrible coverage of markets other than NY and DC. Of the top 50 firms by headcount in LA, just 9 showed up (and 15 of the top 100). Want to work at Skadden, MoFo, Sheppard Mullin, or Sidley in LA? Go to Harvard. NorCal is a little better, but Texas, Philly, and the Midwest (aside from Chicago) are also awful. The Southeast is almost non-existent. IIRC, precisely two firms were interviewing for the entire state of Florida, and one was a tiny Boies office. CDO, if you're reading this, please at least arrange resume drops for markets that have poor FIP coverage. There's also almost no advice about mass mailing for people whose target cities have almost no firms at FIP.

I'm with you, OP. Perhaps Chicago coverage wasn't awful, but the Chicago offices of Kirkland & Ellis (#1 in Chicago) and Mayer Brown (#4 in Chicago) were both missing - even though they interviewed for other cities. The problem, of course, is that these firms believe - quite reasonably - that they have a very low chance of getting a Yale Student. Kirkland & Ellis Chicago, for example, came to FIP until this year, but the last time they got a Yale student was 2010, despite making at least 4-5 offers each year.


Well, I actually remember that Milbank my year straight-up said that they were "refusing to consider" anyone from YLS without at least one H. I felt like a colossal douche for doing so, but I actually made an attempt to explain to the partner why they would have been better off not coming to Yale at all (then again, really, Milbank?). I really don't understand the rationales of particular firms. Kirkland & Ellis Chicago would seem to be the type of firm that would actually be the top choice for some people at Yale.

rad lulz
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Re: OCI Kvetching Time!

Postby rad lulz » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:53 am

Anonymous User wrote:Now OCI is over, I think it's time for kvetching about how our law schools mess things up.

I'll start with Yale's FIP:
- FAR too few firms, even in major markets. Want to work at Akin Gump? Don't go to Yale.
- No resume drops for firms that aren't interviewing (aside from for other offices of firms with hospitality suites)
- Terrible coverage of markets other than NY and DC. Of the top 50 firms by headcount in LA, just 9 showed up (and 15 of the top 100). Want to work at Skadden, MoFo, Sheppard Mullin, or Sidley in LA? Go to Harvard. NorCal is a little better, but Texas, Philly, and the Midwest (aside from Chicago) are also awful. The Southeast is almost non-existent. IIRC, precisely two firms were interviewing for the entire state of Florida, and one was a tiny Boies office. CDO, if you're reading this, please at least arrange resume drops for markets that have poor FIP coverage. There's also almost no advice about mass mailing for people whose target cities have almost no firms at FIP.

While I'm fortunate to have avoided striking out, everything was made far more stressful by FIP's poor coverage, which meant that I was playing around with a dangerously low number of CBs. Would things have been easier if I'd interviewed with NY firms? Yes. But I don't want to be in New York. Do most people ultimately get a SA offer somewhere? Yes, but for too many people, the only option is to start your career in NY and only move to where you really want to be later. We're currently in a situation where the law of small numbers means that even relatively good candidates (and my poor interviewing skills put me outside this group) risk having to go to a second-choice city because they have so few chances in their target markets.

lel

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Old Gregg
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Re: OCI Kvetching Time!

Postby Old Gregg » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:55 am

I felt like a colossal douche for doing so, but I actually made an attempt to explain to the partner why they would have been better off not coming to Yale at all


This is the best line in the thread. My god you're insufferable.

Stinson
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Re: OCI Kvetching Time!

Postby Stinson » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:01 am

Tag so that next time a H v. Y thread comes up I can link this thread and ask those starry-eyed 0L's whether they want to spend three years with OP.

NYstate
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Re: OCI Kvetching Time!

Postby NYstate » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:03 am

Maybe the Yale CDO believes that Yale students have enough initiative to contact firms on their own without extensive hand holding? Maybe they think you can determine how to email without their assistance?

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shumpshump
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Re: OCI Kvetching Time!

Postby shumpshump » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:05 am

Anonymous User wrote:OP here. Look, I realize that there are far worse problems than getting paid $160k pa in a city you'd prefer not to be in. I know that people who strike out from Yale are, ceteris paribus, in a better situation than people who strike out at some other places. It's the fact that CDO doesn't seem to care about the terrible non-NY/DC coverage that really gets me - that there's zero advice, that CDO doesn't seem to do simple things that reduce the chances of people striking out or having to settle for a second-choice city. #FirstWorldProblems, maybe, but that doesn't mean it's not a problem at all, or that it isn't relevant information for people who may be choosing between Yale and another school that has better coverage of their target market.


just lol

Anonymous User
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Re: OCI Kvetching Time!

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:07 am

Fresh Prince wrote:
I felt like a colossal douche for doing so, but I actually made an attempt to explain to the partner why they would have been better off not coming to Yale at all

This is the best line in the thread. My god you're insufferable.

I don't think this is the OP. The anon quoted here implies he/she did FIP in some prior year, whereas OP did it this year.

Also, I'm glad the anon quoted above didn't succeed. I'm a YLS student sitting on an offer from Milbank and seriously considering it. If you're interested in project finance, they're a good choice -- they might quite reasonably be your top choice if you're interested in certain geographic regions or specific kinds of project finance.

That said, they haven't got a YLS student for at least the last three years, and I imagine anon's point is that, if they're only going to be attractive to a small group of YLS students, they can't afford to be too picky.

NYstate
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Re: OCI Kvetching Time!

Postby NYstate » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:19 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
I felt like a colossal douche for doing so, but I actually made an attempt to explain to the partner why they would have been better off not coming to Yale at all

This is the best line in the thread. My god you're insufferable.

I don't think this is the OP. The anon quoted here implies he/she did FIP in some prior year, whereas OP did it this year.

Also, I'm glad the anon quoted above didn't succeed. I'm a YLS student sitting on an offer from Milbank and seriously considering it. If you're interested in project finance, they're a good choice -- they might quite reasonably be your top choice if you're interested in certain geographic regions or specific kinds of project finance.

That said, they haven't got a YLS student for at least the last three years, and I imagine anon's point is that, if they're only going to be attractive to a small group of YLS students, they can't afford to be too picky.


Maybe, if they care about getting Yale students in general. Sounds like they have a different standard created to make some sort of equivalent GPA cutoff.

Loved the attitude of the other poster that implied Milbank isn't prestigious enough to have standards for Yale students.

swoozie
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Re: OCI Kvetching Time!

Postby swoozie » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:23 am

Anonymous User wrote:#FirstWorldProblems

Yale has like 200 students per class, right? Out of 40k graduating students a year? This isn't even first world problems, this is like #top1%problems (even threw in some extra % points since I don't necessarily think every kid at yale > kids at other schools ;)).

Anonymous User
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Re: OCI Kvetching Time!

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:26 am

NYstate wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
I felt like a colossal douche for doing so, but I actually made an attempt to explain to the partner why they would have been better off not coming to Yale at all

This is the best line in the thread. My god you're insufferable.

I don't think this is the OP. The anon quoted here implies he/she did FIP in some prior year, whereas OP did it this year.

Also, I'm glad the anon quoted above didn't succeed. I'm a YLS student sitting on an offer from Milbank and seriously considering it. If you're interested in project finance, they're a good choice -- they might quite reasonably be your top choice if you're interested in certain geographic regions or specific kinds of project finance.

That said, they haven't got a YLS student for at least the last three years, and I imagine anon's point is that, if they're only going to be attractive to a small group of YLS students, they can't afford to be too picky.


Maybe, if they care about getting Yale students in general. Sounds like they have a different standard created to make some sort of equivalent GPA cutoff.

Loved the attitude of the other poster that implied Milbank isn't prestigious enough to have standards for Yale students.


I'm the above quoted anon: I didn't mean to imply that there was anything wrong with Milbank, and if Milbank wants to have "standards" for YLS students, then more power to them. But the fact is that they haven't had any acceptances from YLS in several years. They've wasted a sizeable amount of time and money recruiting people who were essentially using them as a backup. If they had opened up their standards, it is entirely likely they would have gotten some acceptances. The main problem with this argument of standards is just that the YLS grading system is incredibly arbitrary, and even V5s have accepted multiple people with all Ps. Why would more "prestigious" firms feel less inclined to create a standard around grades?

yankees12
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Re: OCI Kvetching Time!

Postby yankees12 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:27 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Also, would be interested to know if students at schools which use resume drops think they are more effective than mass mailing.

My T20 school has a bunch of resume collects in addition to normal OCI and I think they're pretty useless. I had significantly better luck through mass mailing on my own. Even grades were irrelevant - I think they just expend so much time and money on the schools they visit that it isn't worth it for them to also screen all of these extra resumes. Maybe you'd have better luck from YLS, but if they already don't visit for FIP, then they probably figure YLS students aren't interested

Anonymous User
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Re: OCI Kvetching Time!

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:33 am

Op, I seriously hope this thread has shown you that your complaints are ridiculous. You have an offer. Be happy and stop complaining like a cry baby.




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