10 callbacks, 8 done and 8 rejections...

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Anonymous User
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10 callbacks, 8 done and 8 rejections...

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:23 pm

In a strange situation. Got 10 callbacks from 20 screeners, have been rejected by 8 of those callbacks. Luckily (?) the two that I have left, I haven't actually done the callbacks yet. I have treated my callbacks exactly the same as I treated my screeners - being personable, memorable, funny, etc. This was to make up for my not so great grades, secondary journal, no moot court or any honors of any kind. Apparently it worked in getting callbacks, but I suppose my credentials just weren't strong enough to get an offer.

Well it's all nice and dandy I know the problem, but where do I go from here? How do I turn the callbacks I have left into offers? Should I just look to improving my grades and trying at 3L OCI?

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hichvichwoh
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Re: 10 callbacks, 8 done and 8 rejections...

Postby hichvichwoh » Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:38 pm

Did you put the extra effort into firm-specific research? Doing callbacks "exactly the same" as screeners is not the correct strategy. They expect more at the callback stage.

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bk1
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Re: 10 callbacks, 8 done and 8 rejections...

Postby bk1 » Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:41 pm

You're wrong. You don't know the problem. Sure it could be the fact that your grades are mediocre and your resume is lacking, but that isn't guaranteed and heck it isn't necessarily the most likely reason.

You can't change your resume/grades right now. Gunning for 3L OCI is a similarly pointless exercise. There are 2 main things you can do right now:

1. Keep mass mailing to try and get more interviews.
2. Verify that your interviewing isn't actually tanking you. Do some mock interviews if you haven't done some already or have a neutral 3rd party evaluate your interviewing abilities.

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Re: 10 callbacks, 8 done and 8 rejections...

Postby thesealocust » Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:44 pm

Talk to your career services immediately. They should be able to get on the phone with recruiting departments at firms that have dinged you and try to sort things out.

This happens more often than you would expect, and it's usually not a single glaring fault so much as it is a total package that doesn't quite go all the way and gets unlucky. Having watched a bunch of hiring seasons, it tends to be the case that it happens to be people with strong grades but otherwise meh resumes and personalities that are either underwhelming or for some particular reason not inviting of an offer (maybe you've got a resume that shouts Alaska Law and are interviewing exclusively with Parisian firms?). Without you telling us more, making a beeline for career services is the best bet.

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Re: 10 callbacks, 8 done and 8 rejections...

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:03 pm

bk1 wrote:You're wrong. You don't know the problem. Sure it could be the fact that your grades are mediocre and your resume is lacking, but that isn't guaranteed and heck it isn't necessarily the most likely reason.

You can't change your resume/grades right now. Gunning for 3L OCI is a similarly pointless exercise. There are 2 main things you can do right now:

1. Keep mass mailing to try and get more interviews.
2. Verify that your interviewing isn't actually tanking you. Do some mock interviews if you haven't done some already or have a neutral 3rd party evaluate your interviewing abilities.


I did mock interviews recently and career services told me I interview fine. Been mass mailing but no luck.

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Re: 10 callbacks, 8 done and 8 rejections...

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:20 pm

what school?

VyingDestiny
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Re: 10 callbacks, 8 done and 8 rejections...

Postby VyingDestiny » Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:33 pm

Perhaps this is obvious, but if your credentials are mediocre, being likable and personable is not enough. People need to really take to you, and that means you need to structure your conversations in a way that you identify and magnify your intangibles. I obviously don't know your resume, but if you can find a way to highlight traits such as leadership, initiative, time-management, or attention to detail, I think you might be able to edge the scale in the other direction.

In my experience, it is a common misconception that a good personality will make up for deficiencies elsewhere. I think you are better off thinking of a good personality as being a necessary but not sufficient condition. You have strengths. Your goal should be to market them, rather than to make your interviewer 'forget' your deficiencies.

Best of luck to you, I really hope those two callbacks work out in your favor.

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Re: 10 callbacks, 8 done and 8 rejections...

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:59 pm

OP here.

Anonymous User wrote:what school?


CCN.

VyingDestiny wrote:Perhaps this is obvious, but if your credentials are mediocre, being likable and personable is not enough. People need to really take to you, and that means you need to structure your conversations in a way that you identify and magnify your intangibles. I obviously don't know your resume, but if you can find a way to highlight traits such as leadership, initiative, time-management, or attention to detail, I think you might be able to edge the scale in the other direction.

In my experience, it is a common misconception that a good personality will make up for deficiencies elsewhere. I think you are better off thinking of a good personality as being a necessary but not sufficient condition. You have strengths. Your goal should be to market them, rather than to make your interviewer 'forget' your deficiencies.

Best of luck to you, I really hope those two callbacks work out in your favor.


I didn't think of it like that - this is very helpful. Thank you!!

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Re: 10 callbacks, 8 done and 8 rejections...

Postby Redamon1 » Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:28 pm

VyingDestiny wrote:Perhaps this is obvious, but if your credentials are mediocre, being likable and personable is not enough. People need to really take to you, and that means you need to structure your conversations in a way that you identify and magnify your intangibles. I obviously don't know your resume, but if you can find a way to highlight traits such as leadership, initiative, time-management, or attention to detail, I think you might be able to edge the scale in the other direction.

In my experience, it is a common misconception that a good personality will make up for deficiencies elsewhere. I think you are better off thinking of a good personality as being a necessary but not sufficient condition. You have strengths. Your goal should be to market them, rather than to make your interviewer 'forget' your deficiencies.

Best of luck to you, I really hope those two callbacks work out in your favor.


Well said. This is the approach I took. I had prepared a list of strengths that I was ready to inject into each conversation, spontaneously or in response to a question. For each strength I wanted to highlight (e.g. leadership, team player, business development), I told specific EXAMPLES from past experience rather than just saying "I have good leadership skills." As another poster said, also be sure to tailor your spiel to each firm. For example, emphasize your interest in the practice areas that office is known for (assuming of course you are interested in it). Be prepared to use as a springboard something you noticed on your interviewer's bio.

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Re: 10 callbacks, 8 done and 8 rejections...

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:36 pm

Also, make sure you have a good spiel for why you want to be in city X, particularly if it doesn't appear somewhere on your resume. This is less true for NY, but still not entirely untrue. Mentioning that you are interviewing exclusively in city X (or a high %) may help. Explaining your decision-making process - which will almost certainly involve multiple factors - may also help.

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Re: 10 callbacks, 8 done and 8 rejections...

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Also, make sure you have a good spiel for why you want to be in city X, particularly if it doesn't appear somewhere on your resume. This is less true for NY, but still not entirely untrue. Mentioning that you are interviewing exclusively in city X (or a high %) may help. Explaining your decision-making process - which will almost certainly involve multiple factors - may also help.


I've had a lot of firms turn me down because they don't believe I want NYC (strong New England ties, but immediate family (and friends) in NYC). It seems that they don't believe immediate family, friends, liking the city, wanting the work that is strongest in NYC, and the firm aren't enough reasons. I think ties matter in NYC more than is commonly stated.

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Re: 10 callbacks, 8 done and 8 rejections...

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Also, make sure you have a good spiel for why you want to be in city X, particularly if it doesn't appear somewhere on your resume. This is less true for NY, but still not entirely untrue. Mentioning that you are interviewing exclusively in city X (or a high %) may help. Explaining your decision-making process - which will almost certainly involve multiple factors - may also help.


I've had a lot of firms turn me down because they don't believe I want NYC (strong New England ties, but immediate family (and friends) in NYC). It seems that they don't believe immediate family, friends, liking the city, wanting the work that is strongest in NYC, and the firm aren't enough reasons. I think ties matter in NYC more than is commonly stated.


I was shut out of NYC. I have a ~3.9 GPA and transferred from a T50 to the middle of the T14, so perhaps my 1L school or my interviewing was the issue, but I was constantly asked why I wanted to be in NYC and my explanation of both loving the city and wanting to become involved in the type of work done primarily in NYC never seemed to be enough.

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Re: 10 callbacks, 8 done and 8 rejections...

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Also, make sure you have a good spiel for why you want to be in city X, particularly if it doesn't appear somewhere on your resume. This is less true for NY, but still not entirely untrue. Mentioning that you are interviewing exclusively in city X (or a high %) may help. Explaining your decision-making process - which will almost certainly involve multiple factors - may also help.

I've had a lot of firms turn me down because they don't believe I want NYC (strong New England ties, but immediate family (and friends) in NYC). It seems that they don't believe immediate family, friends, liking the city, wanting the work that is strongest in NYC, and the firm aren't enough reasons. I think ties matter in NYC more than is commonly stated.

It's interesting that you know why firms turned you down.

I've had the exact opposite experience. I have moderate ties to a secondary market, and no ties at all to NY. I visited a few times, but not for more than a couple of days. Despite that, I got more CBs and offers in NY than in the secondary market. Occasionally an interviewer would ask me "why New York?" or "are you interviewing in other cities?" but they didn't seem to care much about my answer. Basically all I told them was that I loved NY and bid on the secondary market to be safe.

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Re: 10 callbacks, 8 done and 8 rejections...

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:13 pm

I got offers at almost every NYC firm I interviewed with despite setting foot in the city for the first time the summer before OCI. I had literally no answer to "why NYC" except "lol sounds cool lol" and many others who wound up here could say the same. No friends, no family, no background in NYC-specific industries. Nada.

Ties matter less in NYC. Bidding without ties will go worse in Iowa. But it's not like everyone who interviews in NYC gets a job here, and it's not like as a candidate you can ever know why you were rejected (and honestly there often isn't even a real, specific reason for a ding - a firm may like 10 of the 30 candidates it interviewed but only have room for 5).

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Re: 10 callbacks, 8 done and 8 rejections...

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Also, make sure you have a good spiel for why you want to be in city X, particularly if it doesn't appear somewhere on your resume. This is less true for NY, but still not entirely untrue. Mentioning that you are interviewing exclusively in city X (or a high %) may help. Explaining your decision-making process - which will almost certainly involve multiple factors - may also help.

I've had a lot of firms turn me down because they don't believe I want NYC (strong New England ties, but immediate family (and friends) in NYC). It seems that they don't believe immediate family, friends, liking the city, wanting the work that is strongest in NYC, and the firm aren't enough reasons. I think ties matter in NYC more than is commonly stated.

It's interesting that you know why firms turned you down.

I've had the exact opposite experience. I have moderate ties to a secondary market, and no ties at all to NY. I visited a few times, but not for more than a couple of days. Despite that, I got more CBs and offers in NY than in the secondary market. Occasionally an interviewer would ask me "why New York?" or "are you interviewing in other cities?" but they didn't seem to care much about my answer. Basically all I told them was that I loved NY and bid on the secondary market to be safe.


True, I don't know the exact reason for every firm. However, I've had an interviewer tell me directly in a follow up email (I sent a thank you email and he replied wishing me the best and saying he didn't think I really wanted NYC) and through career services. I've also spoken with recruiters and alumni from NYC firms who looked at my resume and I spoke with and explained my reasons to and they told me their thoughts (basically that it was a tough sell for most firms). I think perhaps it is more because of the Massachusetts - New York thing that I'm questioned more, so it'd probably be better if my strong ties were to a different market.

I'm sure there were also firms who just didn't like my resume/credentials. I just also know there were some who dinged me in at least large part due to not believing I'd go to NYC.

My point was that while ties seem to typically matter less in NYC, they may mean something, especially depending on where your ties are. (and I'm sure plenty of people from MA make it to NYC, I'm just clearly not going to be one of them)

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Re: 10 callbacks, 8 done and 8 rejections...

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote: However, I've had an interviewer tell me directly in a follow up email (I sent a thank you email and he replied wishing me the best and saying he didn't think I really wanted NYC)


Shit, I got a response to a thank you email saying 'I wish you success in the rest of the process' and was trying not to read too much into it but based on your experience I think it might be a bad sign.

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Re: 10 callbacks, 8 done and 8 rejections...

Postby rad lulz » Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:28 pm

.ate
Last edited by rad lulz on Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 10 callbacks, 8 done and 8 rejections...

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: However, I've had an interviewer tell me directly in a follow up email (I sent a thank you email and he replied wishing me the best and saying he didn't think I really wanted NYC)


Shit, I got a response to a thank you email saying 'I wish you success in the rest of the process' and was trying not to read too much into it but based on your experience I think it might be a bad sign.


I received a response saying the same thing. I really liked that firm, too. =[

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Re: 10 callbacks, 8 done and 8 rejections...

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: However, I've had an interviewer tell me directly in a follow up email (I sent a thank you email and he replied wishing me the best and saying he didn't think I really wanted NYC)


Shit, I got a response to a thank you email saying 'I wish you success in the rest of the process' and was trying not to read too much into it but based on your experience I think it might be a bad sign.


I'm the quoted OP. I think that the "I wish you success" response is probably boilerplate to avoid leading someone to think they definitely do or do not have an offer. They also might not know if you'll be getting an offer. I wouldn't read into it much. With the email I mentioned, it was pretty obvious in the interview as well.

I think it's also best to go with the idea that you don't know until you know, so try not to overanalyze and assume either way. (I know, easier said than done.)

Best of luck!




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