3Ls starting firm jobs fall 2014

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RELIC
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby RELIC » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:20 pm

Honestly, I did not start this thread to have a debate about what makes someone successful in law school or in finding employment.

I just want to have a place where 3Ls with jobs can talk about things concerning their future employment and living situations without feeling guilty.

Everyone who doesn't want to do that can kindly GTFO.

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lawhopeful10
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby lawhopeful10 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:24 pm

I think a stronger argument is to say law school is like gambling at a casino. You are aware of the risk before playing however when you win there is nothing to say you shouldn't be happy at your success. In this analogy working hard might simply mean knowing how to give yourself the best odds. However we all know even giving yourself the best odds you can still lose but you know that walking in the door. This doesn't mean you shouldn't emphasize however with those that aren't as lucky as you. I'm just a 1L but this is basically how I am viewing my legal education so I can stay realistic about my future outcomes.

Anyway I think we have seen plenty of scenarios and if you just take a look in the vale you can see plenty of people who worked hard and it hasn't yet worked out for them. Hopefully it will.

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bk1
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby bk1 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:31 pm

RELIC wrote:I just want to have a place where 3Ls with jobs can talk about things concerning their future employment and living situations without feeling guilty.

There is a place for that. It's called talking to your friends and not flaunting things on the internet.

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bk1
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby bk1 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:34 pm

skw wrote:My firm (big law 2' market) offers a $10k advance and will reimburse bar prep and exam fees, but does not prepay any prep or exam fees. Since they are basically offering a no interest loan against future earnings, I am passing on the $10k, but because I'm 16 years out of undergrad and married, my situation differs from most of those considering the offer. If I were on my own/younger/needed it, I would really appreciate the option of taking prepayment on salary to get me through graduation-start date.

I agree the title may upset some in the "everyone gets a trophy" generation, but I guess reality is sometimes tough to accept. I am honestly a little in awe of the whole "never discuss your achievements" culture of LS. It just baffles me. It is NOT the lottery. Everyone I know who has post grad employment earned it by working their ass off. Grading is not random. Jobs are not random. Those who did their pre LS homework and did the necessary hard work in LS are now enjoying the fruits of that labor. Yes, there is an outlier here or there who worked hard and just didn't have good results, but from my observations, my classmates were all on par with each other intellectually and those of us who worked hardest were rewarded.

If only all those no offered c/o 2010ers would have just worked harder, they would have gotten jobs!

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haus
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby haus » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:38 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Funny, as one of the oldest posters here who's worked in the "real" world for a long time, I firmly believe that what job you get (if you get one at all) is frequently determined by factors over which you have no control.

I am also among the older posters (hint I picked up my drivers license in the 80s), and I have been fortunate to have a reasonable amount of success. Although I have worked hard, I fully agree with you that factors outside of my control have had, and likely will continue to have, a large impact on my career/life.

Stinson
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby Stinson » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:53 pm

If only those lazy 2007 matriculants had "done their homework" and predicted the global economic collapse that would happen to coincide with their OCI, they would be enjoying the fruits of their labor as we speak. Typical millenials.

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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:58 pm

bk1 wrote:There is a place for that. It's called talking to your friends and not flaunting things on the internet.


Sadly, most of my friends do not have jobs yet. I know it sounds ungrateful to complain about the size of your stipend or the fact that it is an advance instead of a true bonus when many people are unemployed, but the fact is that we have not won the lottery. We still have to plan and budget for the present and future. I can't have those conversations with my friends, so it is nice to share some experience here.

To those who are still looking for jobs, most of you are where you are because of a number of factors (including many outside of your control) and a small minority of you may be where you are because of your own poor choices. Even if those of us with jobs were "smarter" or "better" at law school than others, that is still something that was decided by things outside our personal control. Some of us do sympathize with those of you with no jobs, but that does not mean we need to hide under a bush somewhere and pretend we don't have any concerns.

I have tried to respect the Vale thread by not posting any douchey remarks. In return, if you do not like the title of this thread or the content therein perhaps you could consider not reading it.

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bk1
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby bk1 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Sadly, most of my friends do not have jobs yet. I know it sounds ungrateful to complain about the size of your stipend or the fact that it is an advance instead of a true bonus when many people are unemployed, but the fact is that we have not won the lottery. We still have to plan and budget for the present and future. I can't have those conversations with my friends, so it is nice to share some experience here.

Why do you need to have that conversation at all? It isn't complex stuff to plan/budget for the future.

Hint: there's a reason that this thread is inherently douchier than the new associate thread. In fact it really wouldn't be that douchey at all to talk about the things listed in OP by themselves (bar trips, 3L laziness, etc... well maybe the bar trip part), but because this thread is all about flaunting that "I HAZ A JERB" y'all come off as douches.

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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby OneMoreLawHopeful » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:10 pm

bk1 wrote:
RELIC wrote:I just want to have a place where 3Ls with jobs can talk about things concerning their future employment and living situations without feeling guilty.

There is a place for that. It's called talking to your friends and not flaunting things on the internet.


I'm sorry, but this is WAY off the mark, and I'm finding this entire discussion about the thread title frustrating.

I try VERY hard never to talk about post-grad employment at school because I don't want to be a douche to anyone who cannot find a job.

This means not discussion things like how Barbri is going to be covered (do I pay and then submit receipts? do firms prefer to use the Barbri-provided forms? will the firm look at me funny if I don't go with Barbi?), when and what my stipend will look like, how much contact I should have with attorneys at the firm over this coming year, whether or not it's a good idea to take them up on their offer of part time work during the school year, etc.

I have close friends who I can discuss this with in private, but it's always going to be a small sample size, and I'll never get as good a picture of "how it works" as I can get over TLS.

I've already tried to contribute to this kind of discussion up-thread by posting about taxes and barbri, and I suspect there's more than enough room for that kind of constructive, positive discussion on these topics that incoming associates really do care about, without worrying that the thread will be a non-stop brag of "I got a job! I got a job!"



I'm really sorry about the market, and I know it's really tough for people right now. That's why I want this thread, so I can discuss these things without upsetting the people I personally know, and get access to more datapoints than just "my closest friends who have shared their employment status with me."


It seems really disingenuous to claim that there are no benefits to this kind of discussion. Forcibly change the title of the thread if you have to, but don't shit up a good idea just because the person who titled the thread was tone-deaf about the subject matter.

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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:14 pm

bk1 wrote:Why do you need to have that conversation at all? It isn't complex stuff to plan/budget for the future.


Why do you need a thread to whine about not having a job? It isn't complex stuff to send off a few resumes a day and make some networking calls.

Seriously, if you want the best advice to find a job, get off TLS and spend the extra time thinking up new strategies. Most of all, don't waste your time in a thread that is going to hurt your self-esteem.

Pokemon
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby Pokemon » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:16 pm

There are tons of threads where people ask advice about which top firm they should accept.
There can be threads, and there are, where people can ask about stipends, how to plan for the future... etc... etc...
We had a summer associate anxiety thread, we can have a new associate anxiety thread or something along those lines.
But the anti-vale is just in such a poor taste...

Ps: case in point... the new associate banter has not gotten any negative attention.

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presh
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby presh » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:18 pm

Good God, just change the fucking title to "3Ls Planning for Working Life" or something.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to discuss these things, but calling it the anti-Vale is douchey, and I say that as someone with no dog in this fight.

Also, your OP seems overly specific to people going into BigLaw so maybe that should be in your title - 3Ls with BigLaw Jobs. Done.

Now get off my lawn.

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Lwoods
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby Lwoods » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:21 pm

presh wrote:Good God, just change the fucking title to "3Ls Planning for Working Life" or something.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to discuss these things, but calling it the anti-Vale is douchey, and I say that as someone with no dog in this fight.

Also, your OP seems overly specific to people going into BigLaw so maybe that should be in your title - 3Ls with BigLaw Jobs. Done.

Now get off my lawn.


:lol:

::slow clap::

fanlinxun
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby fanlinxun » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:21 pm

My my, another good thread destroyed by childish whining. I guess we need a new thread so we don't have to read all the ridiculous bickering. One point for the vale and zero for the anti-vale.

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bk1
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby bk1 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:27 pm

OneMoreLawHopeful wrote:I'm sorry, but this is WAY off the mark, and I'm finding this entire discussion about the thread title frustrating.

I try VERY hard never to talk about post-grad employment at school because I don't want to be a douche to anyone who cannot find a job.

This means not discussion things like how Barbri is going to be covered (do I pay and then submit receipts? do firms prefer to use the Barbri-provided forms? will the firm look at me funny if I don't go with Barbi?), when and what my stipend will look like, how much contact I should have with attorneys at the firm over this coming year, whether or not it's a good idea to take them up on their offer of part time work during the school year, etc.

I have close friends who I can discuss this with in private, but it's always going to be a small sample size, and I'll never get as good a picture of "how it works" as I can get over TLS.

I've already tried to contribute to this kind of discussion up-thread by posting about taxes and barbri, and I suspect there's more than enough room for that kind of constructive, positive discussion on these topics that incoming associates really do care about, without worrying that the thread will be a non-stop brag of "I got a job! I got a job!"

I'm really sorry about the market, and I know it's really tough for people right now. That's why I want this thread, so I can discuss these things without upsetting the people I personally know, and get access to more datapoints than just "my closest friends who have shared their employment status with me."

It seems really disingenuous to claim that there are no benefits to this kind of discussion. Forcibly change the title of the thread if you have to, but don't shit up a good idea just because the person who titled the thread was tone-deaf about the subject matter.

This perfectly exemplifies the problem. The first problem is that you struggle to avoid talking about employment. Is it really that hard to avoid that subject? The fact that you seemingly want to always talk about (or maybe worse yet, can't help yourself from talking about) employment should be a red flag to you.

But more pertinent to this thread, the questions you raise aren't real issues. Nobody should have to consult others about the inane questions you just asked. All of them can be summed up in 4 simple words: ask your fucking firm. It really is that simple. The questions that people with jobs invariably ask are primarily stupid and pointless. They are faux-helpless questions that essentially let them talk about something that makes them happy (read: employment). If you have an actual serious question that isn't stupid (like this thread that isn't the worst in the world) then make a thread to ask it, but the fact that some people think they need an entire thread just for their stupid questions is ridiculous.

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20160810
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby 20160810 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:28 pm

skw wrote:My firm (big law 2' market) offers a $10k advance and will reimburse bar prep and exam fees, but does not prepay any prep or exam fees. Since they are basically offering a no interest loan against future earnings, I am passing on the $10k, but because I'm 16 years out of undergrad and married, my situation differs from most of those considering the offer. If I were on my own/younger/needed it, I would really appreciate the option of taking prepayment on salary to get me through graduation-start date.

I agree the title may upset some in the "everyone gets a trophy" generation, but I guess reality is sometimes tough to accept. I am honestly a little in awe of the whole "never discuss your achievements" culture of LS. It just baffles me. It is NOT the lottery. Everyone I know who has post grad employment earned it by working their ass off. Grading is not random. Jobs are not random. Those who did their pre LS homework and did the necessary hard work in LS are now enjoying the fruits of that labor. Yes, there is an outlier here or there who worked hard and just didn't have good results, but from my observations, my classmates were all on par with each other intellectually and those of us who worked hardest were rewarded.

Getting no offered because you had great grades and summered at a firm that imploded is pretty random tho. Stop sucking your own cock.

fanlinxun
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby fanlinxun » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:33 pm

bk1 wrote:Nobody should have to consult others about the inane questions you just asked. All of them can be summed up in 4 simple words: ask your fucking firm. It really is that simple.


Sure, we could ask the firm, but HR is incredibly busy with OCIs and callbacks now, and there are many more 3Ls entering than there are people to answer questions. I am a couple weeks away from starting my job and I feel bad asking any more questions of my HR contact at the firm than I already have. It is nice to have a place where you can just post a quick question and be done with it.

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RELIC
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby RELIC » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:35 pm

bk1 wrote:This perfectly exemplifies the problem. The first problem is that you struggle to avoid talking about employment. Is it really that hard to avoid that subject? The fact that you seemingly want to always talk about (or maybe worse yet, can't help yourself from talking about) employment should be a red flag to you.

But more pertinent to this thread, the questions you raise aren't real issues. Nobody should have to consult others about the inane questions you just asked. All of them can be summed up in 4 simple words: ask your fucking firm. It really is that simple. The questions that people with jobs invariably ask are primarily stupid and pointless. They are faux-helpless questions that essentially let them talk about something that makes them happy (read: employment). If you have an actual serious question that isn't stupid (like this thread that isn't the worst in the world) then make a thread to ask it, but the fact that some people think they need an entire thread just for their stupid questions is ridiculous.

Seriously? I don't go into the vale thread and call out everyone for asking stupid questions that they could find the answer to in other places.

What is the deal here? Why all the hate?

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OneMoreLawHopeful
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby OneMoreLawHopeful » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:35 pm

bk1 wrote:This perfectly exemplifies the problem. The first problem is that you struggle to avoid talking about employment. Is it really that hard to avoid that subject? The fact that you seemingly want to always talk about (or maybe worse yet, can't help yourself from talking about) employment should be a red flag to you.

But more pertinent to this thread, the questions you raise aren't real issues. Nobody should have to consult others about the inane questions you just asked. All of them can be summed up in 4 simple words: ask your fucking firm. It really is that simple. The questions that people with jobs invariably ask are primarily stupid and pointless. They are faux-helpless questions that essentially let them talk about something that makes them happy (read: employment). If you have an actual serious question that isn't stupid (like this thread that isn't the worst in the world) then make a thread to ask it, but the fact that some people think they need an entire thread just for their stupid questions is ridiculous.


There is just so much projection here it's ridiculous.

Places where you are wrong:

1) I don't "struggle" to avoid talking about employment. I don't talk about employment 99.9% of the time, and it's not a struggle. Period.

2) It's not hard to avoid that subject. I actually avoid it the overwhelming majority of the time. See point 1.

3) I don't "seemingly always want to talk about it," this is you projecting. See points 1 and 2.

4) I have asked my firm, on some of those questions they said "We haven't decided yet," so I would like to know what comparable firms did in past years in order to calibrate my own expectations. There is nothing "helpless" about it, I'm just curious. Any suggestion that I'm just trying to find excuses to talk about employment is yet more projection on your part (see 1, 2, and 3).

5) I'm looking to share a broad base of information with others, in the hopes that they will share some with me. There are obvious benefits to this above and beyond any available from asking discrete questions. Claims to the contrary are silly.

If you look at the first post I made in this thread, you see I was trying to be helpful, as was at least one other poster (admittedly RELIC and at least one Anon have NOT been helpful), and that I didn't even talk about employment, bragging or otherwise.

Please stop playing armchair psychiatrist and ascribing to me motivations that I just don't have.

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bk1
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby bk1 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:36 pm

fanlinxun wrote:Sure, we could ask the firm, but HR is incredibly busy with OCIs and callbacks now, and there are many more 3Ls entering than there are people to answer questions. I am a couple weeks away from starting my job and I feel bad asking any more questions of my HR contact at the firm than I already have. It is nice to have a place where you can just post a quick question and be done with it.

Alternatively, you could just wait a month for when fall recruiting is over (or mostly over).

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20160810
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby 20160810 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:38 pm

My firm paid for my move and it took me 4 hours to find an apartment. None of this shit is terribly hard.

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bk1
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby bk1 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:39 pm

OneMoreLawHopeful wrote:1) I don't "struggle" to avoid talking about employment. I don't talk about employment 99.9% of the time, and it's not a struggle. Period.

OneMoreLawHopeful wrote:I try VERY hard never to talk about post-grad employment at school

I would call having to try very hard "struggling," but sure, semantics.

fanlinxun
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby fanlinxun » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:42 pm

bk1 wrote:Alternatively, you could just wait a month for when fall recruiting is over (or mostly over).


I thought about responding that I will have started work by that point, but seriously, you've got to be kidding me. If you don't like this thread find one that you don't find offensive.

fanlinxun
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby fanlinxun » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:44 pm

SBL wrote:My firm paid for my move and it took me 4 hours to find an apartment. None of this shit is terribly hard.


Neither is waiting for an offer or ding, or figuring out whether to write a thank you note. I have actually never asked a question on TLS, but I don't see why the questions in this thread are any worse than ones in other threads.

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bk1
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby bk1 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:45 pm

fanlinxun wrote:I thought about responding that I will have started work by that point, but seriously, you've got to be kidding me. If you don't like this thread find one that you don't find offensive.

I was talking about bar prep stuff. If you start in a month, what is there that you urgently need to ask now that you can't figure out for yourself?




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