3Ls starting firm jobs fall 2014

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RELIC
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3Ls starting firm jobs fall 2014

Postby RELIC » Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:10 pm

I think we need a place where we can talk about things that concern 3Ls with offers without fear of offending someone currently searching for a job.

So this is the place to discuss: Bar Trips, Summer Stipends, Future Benefits, Job Related Moving, Post Offer De-Motivation, etc.

Go.

(Moved this to the legal employment forum at the request of the mods. Feel free to post anonymously.)
Last edited by RELIC on Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ragelion
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby ragelion » Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:16 pm

Why don't you start?

Anonymous User
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:16 pm

I'll bite. Does anyone know what typical stipends are? My firm hasn't told us yet, and I'm wondering whether I should rent an apartment for the summer or live with the 'rents.

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kwais
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby kwais » Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:18 pm

For those who go to school in the same city as their future employer, how much contact do you intend to have? Practice group outings? Holiday parties?

Anonymous User
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'll bite. Does anyone know what typical stipends are? My firm hasn't told us yet, and I'm wondering whether I should rent an apartment for the summer or live with the 'rents.

My firm does summer stipends between 8k-12k depending on the market. I would ask the HR person or recruiter for the exact amount. However, make sure you understand whether it is a stipend or a draw on future earnings.

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OneMoreLawHopeful
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby OneMoreLawHopeful » Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:02 pm

PROTIP for bros with jobs:

Get your firm to pay for Barbri in 2013 if possible, don't wait until 2014.

This is for tax purposes, and can be pretty substantial, as explained here:

In all likelihood, your 2014 income will be much larger than your 2013 income:
Assume an October 1 start date, a $3100 weekly salary, and an $8k stipend, total income in 2014 is between $45200 and $48300, depending upon how your firm times payments (an October 1 start date could count as either 12 or 13 weeks worked in 2014, depending upon accounting).

By contrast, if all you did was an SA, your 2013 income is closer to 10 x $3100 = $31000. This means the $5000 Barbri charge in 2013 will put you at $36000, or just BELOW the next tax bracket (which begins at $36250). The jump between these two brackets is huge: <$36250 is taxed at 15%, >$36250 is taxed at 25% and up. You can save considerable money if you make sure you get taxed on the Barbri payment in 2013, as the $5k will be taxed at a higher rate (based on your higher overall income) in 2014.

But there's an even bigger issue. Your firm is required to withhold tax from any check they send you at a rate commensurate with the annualized income based upon the size of the check (which is why bros making $31000/year as a summer associate have taxes withheld as though they are making $160k/year). The payment to Barbri (which is taxed!) will be deducted from the first check they send you in 2014, which is usually your stipend.

So, if the firm pays for Barbri in 2014, an $8k stipend will have taxes on $13k removed from it ($8k for the stipend and $5k for the Barbri payment). To illustrate this, let's simplify and pretend that your total withholding will be 35%. If Barbri is paid in 2014, then when you get the stipend, the firm is required to withhold 35% of $13k, which is $4550. So your cash-in-hand from the stipend becomes $8000 - $4550 = $3450.

By contrast, if Barbri is paid in 2013, then the taxes on Barbri are settled in 2013. Your $8k stipend in 2014 is still tax-withheld at 35% (because of the stupid way withholding works), but because 35% of $8000 is only $2800, your cash-in-hand is $8000 - $2800 = $5200.

Since you probably won't have income during the summer, and may want to take a bar-trip, the difference between getting $5200 cash and $3450 cash is fairly substantial (though you will get some of it back in 2015 when you file for a refund, cash the summer you take the bar is probably more helpful then cash while you're already working as an associate).

How do I know all this?

Simple: I saw a LOT of friends who graduated last year get burned on taxes in the spring semester of their 3L year.

Hope this helps!

adonai
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby adonai » Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:07 pm

Might want to add the little tag of no advice to 0/1/2Ls to the thread title before you get bombarded with questions asking how you ended up not getting no offered.

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IAFG
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby IAFG » Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:15 pm

adonai wrote:Might want to add the little tag of no advice to 0/1/2Ls to the thread title before you get bombarded with questions asking how you ended up not getting no offered.

You're right, this thread DOES have some potential for lols as a spoof thread.

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Druid
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby Druid » Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:43 pm

Seriously bad taste in title choice.

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RELIC
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby RELIC » Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:45 pm

OneMoreLawHopeful wrote:PROTIP for bros with jobs:

Get your firm to pay for Barbri in 2013 if possible, don't wait until 2014.

Wow. That is good advice.

Has anyone heard of firms willing to pay for Barbri ahead of time?

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BullShitWithBravado
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby BullShitWithBravado » Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:53 pm

Druid wrote:Seriously bad taste in title choice.


Agreed.

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bruinfan10
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby bruinfan10 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:56 pm

BullShitWithBravado wrote:
Druid wrote:Seriously bad taste in title choice.


Agreed.

+1

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Holly Golightly
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby Holly Golightly » Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:59 pm

BullShitWithBravado wrote:
Druid wrote:Seriously bad taste in title choice.


Agreed.

Nah bros, it's because he's clearly BETTER and SMARTER and WORKED HARDER than anyone who isn't employed. Duh.

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RELIC
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby RELIC » Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:10 pm

BullShitWithBravado wrote:
Druid wrote:Seriously bad taste in title choice.


Agreed.

I will change the thread title if someone can think of a better one but I just thought "anti-vale" would attract attention. But I guess it is the wrong kind of attention.

Anonymous User
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:56 pm

1) I know some firms give the option for part-time withholding or whatever it's called for summers (so federal tax rate is based on what you actually earn at the end of the year). Do any firms do this for 1st years for the stub year (since I imagine most people don't earn much if anything before they start in the fall)?
2) Firms "deduct" BarBri payments from checks? I thought they just paid BarBri directly on your behalf, and any cost to them would just be reflected in a smaller stipend/advance (i.e., I had never heard of tax liability on the BarBri payment -- I guess I know nothing about tax law, but I assumed it was analogous to a gift). I feel like if I raised this with my lower V100 they'd tell me to GTFO.
3) Is it rude to ask HR what my actual stipend/advance is? I think they said it during the summer but I didn't hear. I guess I'll find out in the next few months anyway. Do any NYC V100s even do stipends instead of advances anymore?
4) Do any firms still do stub bonuses or is that a pre-ITE thought?
5) If I live in NYC but am moving to a new place, should I even ask for any moving expenses?
6) If my stipend/advance is $5000 how do I feed myself for six months.
7) I agree the thread title is insensitive so let's change it before we pull a TLS and have an entire thread about stupid shit instead of useful shit.
8) How did I forget to quit my journal immediately after getting an offer.

rad lulz
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby rad lulz » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:28 pm

RELIC wrote:
BullShitWithBravado wrote:
Druid wrote:Seriously bad taste in title choice.


Agreed.

I will change the thread title if someone can think of a better one but I just thought "anti-vale" would attract attention. But I guess it is the wrong kind of attention.

Yeah usually this is just called the 3LOL thread dood

Pokemon
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby Pokemon » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:30 pm

Adminos need to stick this thread up top... so 0Ls currently applying to law school know how good it feels to have that 160k paycheck.

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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote: Does anyone know what typical stipends are?


My firm gives a 15,000 dollar "bonus" that is actually an advance deducted from the first year's salary. Aside from the fact that they shouldn't call it a bonus, I have no complaints though. I don't know how I would have gotten through the summer without it.

RELIC wrote:6) If my stipend/advance is $5000 how do I feed myself for six months.


I'm dealing with this now. A few weeks from my start date and counting the days until that first paycheck comes in. Here are some suggestions:
1. Here is a piece of advice that my friend took. (I couldn't bring myself to do it) He counted his entire student loan amount as income and then used that to get a couple of credit cards with 7500 dollar limits. I am not sure if that is legal, but he did disclose it completely to the credit card company. I'm sure it sucks to start your new job with an additional 15,000 dollars of debt, but its better than starving.

2. Bar loans are maybe an option, but not if you took out the maximum amount for student loans in LS or if you can't find a cosigner. Many lenders have a cap on total student debt when it comes to applying for bar loans.

3. Move back home with parents (Wasn't an option for me)

4. Live cheap. Don't find a place that you can "afford" with your 160k salary. Instead find a place that a student can afford. You will have an easier summer and you will save tons your first year.

5. I am sure there are many other ways. If you are a 3L now then you have a year to prepare---get started now.

Stinson
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby Stinson » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:45 pm

If your university has an employee credit union, they may offer loans to students to help them transition after graduating. At my school it wasn't a bar loan per se, because it was offered to all graduate level students, but it was offered without cosigning as long as your credit rating was good, and on better terms than many of the bar loan places.

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skw
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby skw » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:02 pm

My firm (big law 2' market) offers a $10k advance and will reimburse bar prep and exam fees, but does not prepay any prep or exam fees. Since they are basically offering a no interest loan against future earnings, I am passing on the $10k, but because I'm 16 years out of undergrad and married, my situation differs from most of those considering the offer. If I were on my own/younger/needed it, I would really appreciate the option of taking prepayment on salary to get me through graduation-start date.

I agree the title may upset some in the "everyone gets a trophy" generation, but I guess reality is sometimes tough to accept. I am honestly a little in awe of the whole "never discuss your achievements" culture of LS. It just baffles me. It is NOT the lottery. Everyone I know who has post grad employment earned it by working their ass off. Grading is not random. Jobs are not random. Those who did their pre LS homework and did the necessary hard work in LS are now enjoying the fruits of that labor. Yes, there is an outlier here or there who worked hard and just didn't have good results, but from my observations, my classmates were all on par with each other intellectually and those of us who worked hardest were rewarded.

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Holly Golightly
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby Holly Golightly » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:03 pm

skw wrote:My firm (big law 2' market) offers a $10k advance and will reimburse bar prep and exam fees, but does not prepay any prep or exam fees. Since they are basically offering a no interest loan against future earnings, I am passing on the $10k, but because I'm 16 years out of undergrad and married, my situation differs from most of those considering the offer. If I were on my own/younger/needed it, I would really appreciate the option of taking prepayment on salary to get me through graduation-start date.

I agree the title may upset some in the "everyone gets a trophy" generation, but I guess reality is sometimes tough to accept. I am honestly a little in awe of the whole "never discuss your achievements" culture of LS. It just baffles me. It is NOT the lottery. Everyone I know who has post grad employment earned it by working their ass off. Grading is not random. Jobs are not random. Those who did their pre LS homework and did the necessary hard work in LS are now enjoying the fruits of that labor. Yes, there is an outlier here or there who worked hard and just didn't have good results, but from my observations, my classmates were all on par with each other intellectually and those of us who worked hardest were rewarded.

I'm hoping flame?????

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skw
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby skw » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:08 pm

Holly Golightly wrote:
skw wrote:My firm (big law 2' market) offers a $10k advance and will reimburse bar prep and exam fees, but does not prepay any prep or exam fees. Since they are basically offering a no interest loan against future earnings, I am passing on the $10k, but because I'm 16 years out of undergrad and married, my situation differs from most of those considering the offer. If I were on my own/younger/needed it, I would really appreciate the option of taking prepayment on salary to get me through graduation-start date.

I agree the title may upset some in the "everyone gets a trophy" generation, but I guess reality is sometimes tough to accept. I am honestly a little in awe of the whole "never discuss your achievements" culture of LS. It just baffles me. It is NOT the lottery. Everyone I know who has post grad employment earned it by working their ass off. Grading is not random. Jobs are not random. Those who did their pre LS homework and did the necessary hard work in LS are now enjoying the fruits of that labor. Yes, there is an outlier here or there who worked hard and just didn't have good results, but from my observations, my classmates were all on par with each other intellectually and those of us who worked hardest were rewarded.

I'm hoping flame?????


This is not a flame. I have posted consistently for a couple of years on this forum. This is my honest assessment (as an adult who actually understands how the real world works) of the current poor me syndrome of law students.

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Holly Golightly
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby Holly Golightly » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:13 pm

You're a douche.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:16 pm

Funny, as one of the oldest posters here who's worked in the "real" world for a long time, I firmly believe that what job you get (if you get one at all) is frequently determined by factors over which you have no control.

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Lwoods
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Re: The Anti-Vale: 3Ls with Jobs

Postby Lwoods » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:19 pm

skw wrote:This is not a flame. I have posted consistently for a couple of years on this forum. This is my honest assessment (as an adult who actually understands how the real world works) of the current poor me syndrome of law students.


I would think an adult who understands the world might understand having a sense of decorum and tact. Empathy is the key to having a successful life, not necessarily in terms of wealth, but in overall joy and fulfillment.

It is one thing to be happy about your achievements and to want to share in that happiness with others, as well as to discuss common anxieties that inevitably accompany new ventures. However, the title is in poor taste because it acts as a slap in the face to a group of individuals who are already in a less-than-stellar place. It is the height of naïveté to believe that the failures of others are purely the result of their errors.




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