New associate banter

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El Pollito
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Re: New associate banter

Postby El Pollito » Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:08 am

I've never heard of people with proof of biglaw employment being denied leases in NYC.

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Re: New associate banter

Postby Big Shrimpin » Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:00 pm

El Pollito wrote:I've never heard of people with proof of biglaw employment being denied leases in NYC.


First place I wanted wouldn't take me because I didn't have at least 2 pay stubs (tried to move about 3 weeks or so before I started - had everything else ready to go). My SO and I make a combined 230K and the place wouldn't take me. LOL. Worked out doe because I got a way sweeter pad in a better neighborhood.

If you're renting in MFH:

- have all of your paperwork ready to go, like, to the point that you could see a place and sign a lease 2 hours later
- don't be too picky
- don't let the brokers push you around
- don't be afraid to negotiate, hard, as the brokers always want to make a quick buck

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Re: New associate banter

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:14 pm

The lack of a job at the time (though, assuming you have an offer letter with salary indicated on it), will not stop you from renting in NYC. Even sub-700 credit won't stop you from renting in NYC. What'll stop you from renting in NYC quicker than all the factors above is lack of cash. You need cash, and tons of it.

Landlords are fine to deal with less-than-ideal tenants (i.e., those who might not have 0 debt, tons of money in the bank, and an already-there six-figure job, etc.). Their way of compensating for it is by asking for more $$$ in the form of a security deposit and more months of rent up front. You need to be ready to pony up the cash, because dat $3k 1BR rent adds up. And most landlords want certified check, not regular check or... *gasp* a credit card.

Also, if you're going to use a co-signer, I believe the co-signer has to make to the tune of 80x the monthly rent (whereas the actual renter has to make to the tun of 40-45x).

A nice little anecdote: good friend of mine moved to NYC. Had a stable income, decent but not amazing credit, and no cosigner. Landlord made her pay all 12 months up front.

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El Pollito
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Re: New associate banter

Postby El Pollito » Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:The lack of a job at the time (though, assuming you have an offer letter with salary indicated on it), will not stop you from renting in NYC. Even sub-700 credit won't stop you from renting in NYC. What'll stop you from renting in NYC quicker than all the factors above is lack of cash. You need cash, and tons of it.

Landlords are fine to deal with less-than-ideal tenants (i.e., those who might not have 0 debt, tons of money in the bank, and an already-there six-figure job, etc.). Their way of compensating for it is by asking for more $$$ in the form of a security deposit and more months of rent up front. You need to be ready to pony up the cash, because dat $3k 1BR rent adds up. And most landlords want certified check, not regular check or... *gasp* a credit card.

Also, if you're going to use a co-signer, I believe the co-signer has to make to the tune of 80x the monthly rent (whereas the actual renter has to make to the tun of 40-45x).

A nice little anecdote: good friend of mine moved to NYC. Had a stable income, decent but not amazing credit, and no cosigner. Landlord made her pay all 12 months up front.

I paid 1 month + security deposit, soo.

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Re: New associate banter

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:05 pm

El Pollito wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:The lack of a job at the time (though, assuming you have an offer letter with salary indicated on it), will not stop you from renting in NYC. Even sub-700 credit won't stop you from renting in NYC. What'll stop you from renting in NYC quicker than all the factors above is lack of cash. You need cash, and tons of it.

Landlords are fine to deal with less-than-ideal tenants (i.e., those who might not have 0 debt, tons of money in the bank, and an already-there six-figure job, etc.). Their way of compensating for it is by asking for more $$$ in the form of a security deposit and more months of rent up front. You need to be ready to pony up the cash, because dat $3k 1BR rent adds up. And most landlords want certified check, not regular check or... *gasp* a credit card.

Also, if you're going to use a co-signer, I believe the co-signer has to make to the tune of 80x the monthly rent (whereas the actual renter has to make to the tun of 40-45x).

A nice little anecdote: good friend of mine moved to NYC. Had a stable income, decent but not amazing credit, and no cosigner. Landlord made her pay all 12 months up front.

I paid 1 month + security deposit, soo.


I wasn't say it was universal, just saying that the above is a pretty common method to get around a less than ideal application for an apartment. Your reading skills suck, soo.

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El Pollito
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Re: New associate banter

Postby El Pollito » Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
El Pollito wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:The lack of a job at the time (though, assuming you have an offer letter with salary indicated on it), will not stop you from renting in NYC. Even sub-700 credit won't stop you from renting in NYC. What'll stop you from renting in NYC quicker than all the factors above is lack of cash. You need cash, and tons of it.

Landlords are fine to deal with less-than-ideal tenants (i.e., those who might not have 0 debt, tons of money in the bank, and an already-there six-figure job, etc.). Their way of compensating for it is by asking for more $$$ in the form of a security deposit and more months of rent up front. You need to be ready to pony up the cash, because dat $3k 1BR rent adds up. And most landlords want certified check, not regular check or... *gasp* a credit card.

Also, if you're going to use a co-signer, I believe the co-signer has to make to the tune of 80x the monthly rent (whereas the actual renter has to make to the tun of 40-45x).

A nice little anecdote: good friend of mine moved to NYC. Had a stable income, decent but not amazing credit, and no cosigner. Landlord made her pay all 12 months up front.

I paid 1 month + security deposit, soo.


I wasn't say it was universal, just saying that the above is a pretty common method to get around a less than ideal application for an apartment. Your reading skills suck, soo.

Or that guy is a slumlord.

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Re: New associate banter

Postby 5ky » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:25 pm

Yeah I am pretty sure "making you pay 12 months up front" is a really good sign you should not live there.

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Re: New associate banter

Postby swc65 » Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:22 pm

5ky wrote:Yeah I am pretty sure "making you pay 12 months up front" is a really good sign you should not live there.



I tried to rent an apartment while in law school. No cosigner and two brokers told me that if I didn't have a cosigner or verifiable income I would have to pay the lease in full. They didnt consider the school's aid award letter or the availability of loans as income either.

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Re: New associate banter

Postby englawyer » Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:58 am

What is an appropriate Christmas gift for your (shared) secretary during stub year?

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Re: New associate banter

Postby blurbz » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:09 am

englawyer wrote:What is an appropriate Christmas gift for your (shared) secretary during stub year?


At my firm the standard for stub years is $50 cash money.

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Re: New associate banter

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:48 am

blurbz wrote:
englawyer wrote:What is an appropriate Christmas gift for your (shared) secretary during stub year?


At my firm the standard for stub years is $50 cash money.

NY? Very interested in other opinions on this.

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Re: New associate banter

Postby mindarmed » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:The lack of a job at the time (though, assuming you have an offer letter with salary indicated on it), will not stop you from renting in NYC. Even sub-700 credit won't stop you from renting in NYC. What'll stop you from renting in NYC quicker than all the factors above is lack of cash. You need cash, and tons of it.

Landlords are fine to deal with less-than-ideal tenants (i.e., those who might not have 0 debt, tons of money in the bank, and an already-there six-figure job, etc.). Their way of compensating for it is by asking for more $$$ in the form of a security deposit and more months of rent up front. You need to be ready to pony up the cash, because dat $3k 1BR rent adds up. And most landlords want certified check, not regular check or... *gasp* a credit card.

Also, if you're going to use a co-signer, I believe the co-signer has to make to the tune of 80x the monthly rent (whereas the actual renter has to make to the tun of 40-45x).

A nice little anecdote: good friend of mine moved to NYC. Had a stable income, decent but not amazing credit, and no cosigner. Landlord made her pay all 12 months up front.


This is some serious flame. I am at an entry level, fresh out of UG job and I didn't even need the bolded when I applied. Just first mo rent + sec deposit.

e: Why is this person anon anyway?

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Re: New associate banter

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:42 pm

mindarmed wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:The lack of a job at the time (though, assuming you have an offer letter with salary indicated on it), will not stop you from renting in NYC. Even sub-700 credit won't stop you from renting in NYC. What'll stop you from renting in NYC quicker than all the factors above is lack of cash. You need cash, and tons of it.

Landlords are fine to deal with less-than-ideal tenants (i.e., those who might not have 0 debt, tons of money in the bank, and an already-there six-figure job, etc.). Their way of compensating for it is by asking for more $$$ in the form of a security deposit and more months of rent up front. You need to be ready to pony up the cash, because dat $3k 1BR rent adds up. And most landlords want certified check, not regular check or... *gasp* a credit card.

Also, if you're going to use a co-signer, I believe the co-signer has to make to the tune of 80x the monthly rent (whereas the actual renter has to make to the tun of 40-45x).

A nice little anecdote: good friend of mine moved to NYC. Had a stable income, decent but not amazing credit, and no cosigner. Landlord made her pay all 12 months up front.


This is some serious flame. I am at an entry level, fresh out of UG job and I didn't even need the bolded when I applied. Just first mo rent + sec deposit.

e: Why is this person anon anyway?


I am the person who posted the above. I never said it was universal. In MY experience, my security deposit was $500 and all I had to do was a credit check. I am just sharing what I know in terms of what my friends experienced over the 6+ years I lived in NYC.

NYC landlords suck. I don't understand why people are disputing this. And further, exceptions to the rule in a TLS thread don't really prove the above wrong. I am NOT saying you'll have to pay all 12 months up front. Different landlords have different risk tolerances; obviously yours has a higher tolerance for risk than others. And your experience doesn't really refute my point--1 months' rent and a security deposit is a lot of cash to have on hand to give to someone.

One month's rent, plus two months' security (or was it one months' security and first and last months' rent--one of the two) is what I'd say is "market" in Manhattan for leasing from a landlord that's not part of a managed rental building (i.e., MIMA, Gehry, etc.).

The above + 15% of the total term's rent for a broker's fee is very common if you're working through a broker. That's shitload of cash (for a $2.5k 1BR, you're looking at $12,000 up front--again, all in cash).

The more lax apartment rental requirements *tend* to be in the above managed rental buildings (i.e., MIMA, Gehry, Equity Residential, and a few others), but the better ones (i.e., MIMA and Ghery) are pretty expensive for 1BRs.


You can disagree with any of this, but my point is that you need a lot of cash on hand. You're retarded if you disagree with that point. If you want to blow your salary advance/stipend on a bar trip, go right ahead. But very few NYC landlords will take credit card for payments you'll need to make.

Good luck.

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Re: New associate banter

Postby blurbz » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:28 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
blurbz wrote:
englawyer wrote:What is an appropriate Christmas gift for your (shared) secretary during stub year?


At my firm the standard for stub years is $50 cash money.

NY? Very interested in other opinions on this.



Not NYC.

But: I just asked a buddy of mine who started in NYC before lateralling here after 5ish years and he said the norm in NYC, in his experience, was $100 per class year.

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Re: New associate banter

Postby gk101 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:06 am

blurbz wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:
blurbz wrote:
englawyer wrote:What is an appropriate Christmas gift for your (shared) secretary during stub year?


At my firm the standard for stub years is $50 cash money.

NY? Very interested in other opinions on this.



Not NYC.

But: I just asked a buddy of mine who started in NYC before lateralling here after 5ish years and he said the norm in NYC, in his experience, was $100 per class year.


Same thing for my firm in DC. $50 for stub year and $100 per class year is the norm.

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Re: New associate banter

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:15 pm

How common is it to "lateral up" to a higher ranked Vault firm (in NYC)? I ask because it always seemed from this forum that it was pretty difficult (people usually lateral lower and look for partnership prospects), however, I've heard of/knew of a few people at my V100 who lateraled to V10 or V50. And they weren't in prestigious practice groups/didn't have abnormally great resumes. I don't care about making partner, but am curious about this just in terms of job security/in case I don't mind remaining an associate for a longer time than the average stay. I'm assuming the criteria for accomplishing this is the same as trying to make partner (i.e., billing a ton)?

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Re: New associate banter

Postby 09042014 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:21 pm

I doubt billing a ton would make you partner, or would help you to lateral.

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Re: New associate banter

Postby run26.2 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:How common is it to "lateral up" to a higher ranked Vault firm (in NYC)? I ask because it always seemed from this forum that it was pretty difficult (people usually lateral lower and look for partnership prospects), however, I've heard of/knew of a few people at my V100 who lateraled to V10 or V50. And they weren't in prestigious practice groups/didn't have abnormally great resumes. I don't care about making partner, but am curious about this just in terms of job security/in case I don't mind remaining an associate for a longer time than the average stay. I'm assuming the criteria for accomplishing this is the same as trying to make partner (i.e., billing a ton)?

It will be hard for anyone to tell you statistics, beyond that it happens and it's not that common. How frequently it happens depends on the firm (e.g., Cravath reputedly almost never takes lateral associates).

The criteria of "billing a ton" is neither necessary nor sufficient for either making partner or lateraling. There are numerous factors considered for each, and the relative importance of # of hours billed is not that high, from what I've seen. More important are the firm's particular needs, the attorney's skill set, and, at least for partnership, a business justification.

Most important for lateralling will be the match between the firm's needs and the particular associate's skills. If you want to lateral, you should seek experiences that will give you marketable skills. Hone those skills. Most firms are concerned about how you handled the responsibility you were given, not simply that you had the experience.

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Re: New associate banter

Postby Old Gregg » Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:How common is it to "lateral up" to a higher ranked Vault firm (in NYC)? I ask because it always seemed from this forum that it was pretty difficult (people usually lateral lower and look for partnership prospects), however, I've heard of/knew of a few people at my V100 who lateraled to V10 or V50. And they weren't in prestigious practice groups/didn't have abnormally great resumes. I don't care about making partner, but am curious about this just in terms of job security/in case I don't mind remaining an associate for a longer time than the average stay. I'm assuming the criteria for accomplishing this is the same as trying to make partner (i.e., billing a ton)?



This forum is wrong on that. Lateralling to a V10 is not hard. Just not done as often because it's the rare person who wants to inflict that much more pain on themselves.

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Re: New associate banter

Postby run26.2 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:54 pm

I wouldn't say that it is not hard. I would say that it is hard in that the lateral will need to have had a lot of success before being able to lateral to a V10. If you look at the people that lateral to V10s as partners, they're resumes are cluttered with successful representations.

It's also "hard" in the sense that a particular firm may not have a need corresponding to that particular's partner's talent. So that partner may not be able to lateral to firm X, although she could lateral to a similarly ranked firm.

In sum, I think its more that for a person with a track record of success at a lower ranked firm, it is possible to lateral to a higher ranked firm, even a V10.

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Re: New associate banter

Postby Old Gregg » Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:54 pm

Don't quite understand how a headhunter thinks robo-calling me on a Saturday morning would endear them to me.

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Re: New associate banter

Postby Old Gregg » Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:01 pm

In sum, I think its more that for a person with a track record of success at a lower ranked firm, it is possible to lateral to a higher ranked firm, even a V10.


Bud, there's no dependable to verify whether the associate you are interviewing is a superstar at his firm or getting pushed out (and to that end, know plenty of lawyers pushed out at lower ranked firms who lateraled to a V10). Re: Partners, it's even harder for a firm to determine whether their book of business is real or spurious.

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Re: New associate banter

Postby run26.2 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:08 pm

zweitbester wrote:
In sum, I think its more that for a person with a track record of success at a lower ranked firm, it is possible to lateral to a higher ranked firm, even a V10.


Bud, there's no dependable to verify whether the associate you are interviewing is a superstar at his firm or getting pushed out (and to that end, know plenty of lawyers pushed out at lower ranked firms who lateraled to a V10). Re: Partners, it's even harder for a firm to determine whether their book of business is real or spurious.

The post you are quoting is about partners. The post is about successful representations, e.g., litigation victories or closing important deals. It wasn't about a book of business. Not sure why you're changing the terms of the argument. Also, just because you know people that have done it doesn't mean it's not hard. There are many times more people that would not be able to do the same thing.

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Re: New associate banter

Postby Old Gregg » Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:16 pm

run26.2 wrote:
zweitbester wrote:
In sum, I think its more that for a person with a track record of success at a lower ranked firm, it is possible to lateral to a higher ranked firm, even a V10.


Bud, there's no dependable to verify whether the associate you are interviewing is a superstar at his firm or getting pushed out (and to that end, know plenty of lawyers pushed out at lower ranked firms who lateraled to a V10). Re: Partners, it's even harder for a firm to determine whether their book of business is real or spurious.

The post you are quoting is about partners. The post is about successful representations, e.g., litigation victories or closing important deals. It wasn't about a book of business. Not sure why you're changing the terms of the argument. Also, just because you know people that have done it doesn't mean it's not hard. There are many times more people that would not be able to do the same thing.



The post I quoted was maybe about making partner, if that. Every V10 is different regarding how they treat laterals with respect to partnership consideration. Are you talking about partners lateralling between firms? If so, this conversation is retarded because zero people here are in that position. And your argument itself is retarded because the single biggest factor in partner poaching is the size of book (though winning cases and closing deals is definitely helpful to getting that book).

And yes, it's not hard. The fact that you're even willing to engage in this argument means you don't know what you're talking about. You have to snap out of the "vault mentality." Firms don't look at candidates and think "well shucks, you're coming from a V70... I don't know." They look at their needs and what you've got. If a V10 needs an associate who has don't multibillion dollar deals in the tech industry, a midlevel M&A associate at Wilson Sonsini would have an amazing shot.

It's only "hard" in the sense that you actually have to interview well, but that isn't an argument for why it'd be hard to go from a V-whatever to a V10.

Reread that person's post. Wasn't even about partnership at all, to be honest. You seem to be an idiot.

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Re: New associate banter

Postby L’Étranger » Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:How common is it to "lateral up" to a higher ranked Vault firm (in NYC)? I ask because it always seemed from this forum that it was pretty difficult (people usually lateral lower and look for partnership prospects), however, I've heard of/knew of a few people at my V100 who lateraled to V10 or V50. And they weren't in prestigious practice groups/didn't have abnormally great resumes. I don't care about making partner, but am curious about this just in terms of job security/in case I don't mind remaining an associate for a longer time than the average stay. I'm assuming the criteria for accomplishing this is the same as trying to make partner (i.e., billing a ton)?



I don't think the Vault ranking of the firm you are lateraling from or into makes a whole bunch of difference.

Vault rankings are determined by associates. Because associates aren't privy (in the majority of cases) to the financial and performance health of the firms they vote for, the Vault rankings aren't based on a whole bunch of substance.

I think lateraling is really more about the particular need of the firm that's hiring and the experience of the lateral trying to lateral in.




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