Delaware vs. V100

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Delaware vs. Vault Satellite

Delaware
12
63%
Vault Satellite
7
37%
 
Total votes: 19

Anonymous User
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Delaware vs. V100

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:23 pm

Where would you accept a summer offer: Delaware RLF/MNAT (145K, high level Corperete stuff, office has 100-150 lawyers, not Vault firm)

OR

a (barely) Vault firm's satellite office in a very secondary market (think Harrisburg, PA; Greensboro, NC; Cincinatti, OH; etc.) pay: 125-40K, international firm with dozens of offices and many hundreds of lawyers, pretty good name recognition.

Hutz_and_Goodman
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Re: Delaware vs. V100

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:28 pm

No one can answer this without more info. How do you feel about living/practicing in DE? How do you feel about the secondary market?

anonymous2012
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Re: Delaware vs. V100

Postby anonymous2012 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:49 pm

If neither is your preferred destination long-term, I'd do the Deleware work. Regional biglaw firms are always looking for people who are admitted in Delaware and have exposure to sophisticated corporate litigation and corporate governance work.

I agree that location is a big factor here, but I'd do the DE work over doing who knows what in a satellite office of a lower ranked Vault firm.

Among the towns you listed, Cinci stands out as a place with a lot more amenities. I'd way prefer being close to Philly over living in Harrisburg or anywhere in the Winston-Salem/Greensboro/High Point area. But that's me.

lolwat
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Re: Delaware vs. V100

Postby lolwat » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:54 pm

I have no idea what Vault ranking ANY Delaware firm might have (if RLF/MNAT aren't Vault ranked, are any of them?), but the high end DE firms are still well respected nationally, IIRC. I'd think starting at DE firm and lateraling out would be easier than starting at really weird market (is Harrisburg, PA really even a "secondary" market?), even if it's a well-recognized firm name. But I have no idea what your goals even are, I'm just assuming exit options since "prestige" (Vault/non-Vault) seems a consideration to you and that usually means looking at exit options.
Last edited by lolwat on Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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hephaestus
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Re: Delaware vs. V100

Postby hephaestus » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:55 pm

I would probably go Delaware here, unless you really want to be in the secondary market.

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Re: Delaware vs. V100

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:06 pm

lolwat wrote:I have no idea what Vault ranking ANY Delaware firm might have (if RLF/MNAT aren't Vault ranked, are any of them?), but the high end DE firms are still well respected nationally, IIRC. I'd think starting at DE firm and lateraling out would be easier than starting at really weird market (is Harrisburg, PA really even a "secondary" market?), even if it's a well-recognized firm name. But I have no idea what your goals even are, I'm just assuming exit options since "prestige" (Vault/non-Vault) seems a consideration to you and that usually means looking at exit options.

Neither RLF or MNAT are vault ranked. They have great name recognition with any firm or group that uses them as local counsel (tons of firms in CA, Chicago and NYC all do) but not really otherwise.

The work you will be doing is the local counsel piece of a bigger deal or case. Your client is pretty much the big law firm that is using you as local counsel. You're going to get a lot of hands-on experience on the Delaware peice, early. You'll work directly with a partner more often than at a larger firm (dunno about regional offices comparatively). The leverage is very low at the DE firms.

J. D.
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Re: Delaware vs. V100

Postby J. D. » Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:24 pm

@$145K… easily Delaware. COL is as low as it gets without heading down south.

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Re: Delaware vs. V100

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:31 pm

J. D. wrote:@$145K… easily Delaware. COL is as low as it gets without heading down south.

Eh not so sure about that. Rents in the better neighborhoods/buildings really aren't all that cheap, parking is $150/mo near the firms, you'll definitely need a car.

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Re: Delaware vs. V100

Postby J. D. » Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
J. D. wrote:@$145K… easily Delaware. COL is as low as it gets without heading down south.

Eh not so sure about that. Rents in the better neighborhoods/buildings really aren't all that cheap, parking is $150/mo near the firms, you'll definitely need a car.

As much as I hate to say this…. $150.00 for parking is a steal, compared to $425-$500. A six block walk is $375. Some offer reserved parking for an extra $115. Down south monthly parking is in the $30-$50 range.

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Re: Delaware vs. V100

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:45 am

J. D. wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
J. D. wrote:@$145K… easily Delaware. COL is as low as it gets without heading down south.

Eh not so sure about that. Rents in the better neighborhoods/buildings really aren't all that cheap, parking is $150/mo near the firms, you'll definitely need a car.

As much as I hate to say this…. $150.00 for parking is a steal, compared to $425-$500. A six block walk is $375. Some offer reserved parking for an extra $115. Down south monthly parking is in the $30-$50 range.

But we're comparing to secondary markets. I did a quick look at luxury apartment buildings in Cinci and they're certainly cheaper than Wilmington.

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Danger Zone
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Re: Delaware vs. V100

Postby Danger Zone » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:26 am

If you have any interest in the work that's done there, Delaware.


City Median Reported Salary Salary required to Yield NYC Buying Power* Buying Power Index
Dallas, TX $135,000 $70,350 1.919
Wilmington, DE 145,000 79,710 1.819
Houston, TX 115,000 65,670 1.751
Charlotte, NC 115,000 68,230 1.686
Los Angeles, CA 160,000 97,110 1.648

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Re: Delaware vs. V100

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:20 am

I'd go the DE firm.

One thing to note is that the "cost of living" index for Wilmington is misleading. It's based on things like average housing prices, which ignores the fact that most of Wilmington is a slum. A 2BR in one of the handful of luxury buildings in Wilmington might run you $1500-1700/month, compared to a similar number for Houston and maybe $2250/month for Chicago. Drinks, food, etc, are not any cheaper here at the places you'd go to.

But yeah, if it's being 30 minutes from Philadelphia versus being in Harrisburg, the DE firm is a no-brainer.

J. D.
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Re: Delaware vs. V100

Postby J. D. » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:31 am

Danger Zone wrote:If you have any interest in the work that's done there, Delaware.


City Median Reported Salary Salary required to Yield NYC Buying Power* Buying Power Index
Dallas, TX $135,000 $70,350 1.919
Wilmington, DE 145,000 79,710 1.819
Houston, TX 115,000 65,670 1.751
Charlotte, NC 115,000 68,230 1.686
Los Angeles, CA 160,000 97,110 1.648


Good data. I just Googled Wilmington parking, $150 is a typical price. In a large metro prices are $450, plus another $100 for a reserved space… which is what you need if you don’t want spend 20 minutes trying find a space (every time you park). So figure $550 × 12 = $6,600 a year ($10K net). Outside of DE, the hits just keep on coming….

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Re: Delaware vs. V100

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:01 am

TCR is clearly V100. Delaware prestige is way overblown.

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Re: Delaware vs. V100

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:05 am

Anonymous User wrote:
lolwat wrote:I have no idea what Vault ranking ANY Delaware firm might have (if RLF/MNAT aren't Vault ranked, are any of them?), but the high end DE firms are still well respected nationally, IIRC. I'd think starting at DE firm and lateraling out would be easier than starting at really weird market (is Harrisburg, PA really even a "secondary" market?), even if it's a well-recognized firm name. But I have no idea what your goals even are, I'm just assuming exit options since "prestige" (Vault/non-Vault) seems a consideration to you and that usually means looking at exit options.

Neither RLF or MNAT are vault ranked. They have great name recognition with any firm or group that uses them as local counsel (tons of firms in CA, Chicago and NYC all do) but not really otherwise.

The work you will be doing is the local counsel piece of a bigger deal or case. Your client is pretty much the big law firm that is using you as local counsel. You're going to get a lot of hands-on experience on the Delaware peice, early. You'll work directly with a partner more often than at a larger firm (dunno about regional offices comparatively). The leverage is very low at the DE firms.


TCR. It's all local counsel work. Essentially, you're a signature on someone else's brief. Who writes the brief? Someone from the V100.

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Re: Delaware vs. V100

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:42 pm

145k to sign briefs? While making contacts while being involved with the biggest names in the world? Sounds awesome.

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Re: Delaware vs. V100

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:145k to sign briefs? While making contacts while being involved with the biggest names in the world? Sounds awesome.


The exit ops are overrated. You have to retake the bar in NYC.

Anonymous User
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Re: Delaware vs. V100

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:145k to sign briefs? While making contacts while being involved with the biggest names in the world? Sounds awesome.


The exit ops are overrated. You have to retake the bar in NYC.

Where do DE big 4 lawyers land if they don't make partner?

Retaking the bar is sorta a stupid reason not to go to DE.

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rayiner
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Re: Delaware vs. V100

Postby rayiner » Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:30 pm

J. D. wrote:
Danger Zone wrote:If you have any interest in the work that's done there, Delaware.


City Median Reported Salary Salary required to Yield NYC Buying Power* Buying Power Index
Dallas, TX $135,000 $70,350 1.919
Wilmington, DE 145,000 79,710 1.819
Houston, TX 115,000 65,670 1.751
Charlotte, NC 115,000 68,230 1.686
Los Angeles, CA 160,000 97,110 1.648


Good data. I just Googled Wilmington parking, $150 is a typical price. In a large metro prices are $450, plus another $100 for a reserved space… which is what you need if you don’t want spend 20 minutes trying find a space (every time you park). So figure $550 × 12 = $6,600 a year ($10K net). Outside of DE, the hits just keep on coming….


Anywhere you need to pay $550/month for parking is a place where you don't need a car! Seriously, that's Manhattan prices. Monthly parking near K and 16th (around where all the law firms are) in D.C. only runs you $240-270/month. In downtown Philly you can pay under $200 on Market Street.

Again, if you're not planning on living, shopping, eating in the ghetto, Wilmington is not cheap. There's a limited supply of yuppie-level amenities, and a decent amount of demand from all the credit card/bank people who work here, so prices aren't really that low. It's not Manhattan-expensive, but it's not Iowa cheap. You'll pay $12 for a burger, etc, just like you would in Philadelphia or Chicago.

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Re: Delaware vs. V100

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:52 pm

rayiner wrote:
J. D. wrote:
Danger Zone wrote:If you have any interest in the work that's done there, Delaware.


City Median Reported Salary Salary required to Yield NYC Buying Power* Buying Power Index
Dallas, TX $135,000 $70,350 1.919
Wilmington, DE 145,000 79,710 1.819
Houston, TX 115,000 65,670 1.751
Charlotte, NC 115,000 68,230 1.686
Los Angeles, CA 160,000 97,110 1.648


Good data. I just Googled Wilmington parking, $150 is a typical price. In a large metro prices are $450, plus another $100 for a reserved space… which is what you need if you don’t want spend 20 minutes trying find a space (every time you park). So figure $550 × 12 = $6,600 a year ($10K net). Outside of DE, the hits just keep on coming….


Anywhere you need to pay $550/month for parking is a place where you don't need a car! Seriously, that's Manhattan prices. Monthly parking near K and 16th (around where all the law firms are) in D.C. only runs you $240-270/month. In downtown Philly you can pay under $200 on Market Street.

Again, if you're not planning on living, shopping, eating in the ghetto, Wilmington is not cheap. There's a limited supply of yuppie-level amenities, and a decent amount of demand from all the credit card/bank people who work here, so prices aren't really that low. It's not Manhattan-expensive, but it's not Iowa cheap. You'll pay $12 for a burger, etc, just like you would in Philadelphia or Chicago.


Rayiner with the fantastic analysis! As always. Thanks.

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Re: Delaware vs. V100

Postby eastcoast_iub » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
lolwat wrote:I have no idea what Vault ranking ANY Delaware firm might have (if RLF/MNAT aren't Vault ranked, are any of them?), but the high end DE firms are still well respected nationally, IIRC. I'd think starting at DE firm and lateraling out would be easier than starting at really weird market (is Harrisburg, PA really even a "secondary" market?), even if it's a well-recognized firm name. But I have no idea what your goals even are, I'm just assuming exit options since "prestige" (Vault/non-Vault) seems a consideration to you and that usually means looking at exit options.

Neither RLF or MNAT are vault ranked. They have great name recognition with any firm or group that uses them as local counsel (tons of firms in CA, Chicago and NYC all do) but not really otherwise.

The work you will be doing is the local counsel piece of a bigger deal or case. Your client is pretty much the big law firm that is using you as local counsel. You're going to get a lot of hands-on experience on the Delaware peice, early. You'll work directly with a partner more often than at a larger firm (dunno about regional offices comparatively). The leverage is very low at the DE firms.


TCR. It's all local counsel work. Essentially, you're a signature on someone else's brief. Who writes the brief? Someone from the V100.


Having just summered at one of the above mentioned DE firms, this is definitely not the case. It's more of a partnership than signing off on the brief. If all the V100 firms wanted was someone to sign off on a brief, there are plenty of lower-priced DE firms that can do this for them. The billing rates for partners at my firm are comparable to lower V100 firms and that is for a reason. Since the big law firm is the client, they ultimately have the final say on any differences in the final brief, but they frequently defer to DE firms b/c of their expertise.

Oh, and the COL is low. Yeah the numbers may be a little misleading, but DE is way more affordable than NYC or DC. As for the luxury apartments downtown (the Residences), no one that works at DE firms lives there. Much more affordable apartments can be found away from downtown that are in more desirable areas. And oh yeah, property tax is silly low in DE and there is no sales tax. So the CoL difference is not a mirage.

DE is definitely not the most exciting place in the world, but the work there is top-notch and you will get more hands-on experience there than you will at a V100 firm. Instead of doing bullshit doc review you will do real work.
Last edited by eastcoast_iub on Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

blsingindisguise
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Re: Delaware vs. V100

Postby blsingindisguise » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:40 pm

If you don't want to live in Delaware you can commute from Philly or one of the nicer PA suburban areas.

J. D.
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Re: Delaware vs. V100

Postby J. D. » Sat Sep 07, 2013 1:28 am

Mr/Ms OP... Honestly, at $145K for Delaware, you hit the ball out of the park….just run around the bases! I strongly considered Wilmington even though the firm that offered me paid $50K less than what your firm pays.

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Re: Delaware vs. V100

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:47 am

eastcoast_iub wrote:Having just summered at one of the above mentioned DE firms, this is definitely not the case. It's more of a partnership than signing off on the brief. If all the V100 firms wanted was someone to sign off on a brief, there are plenty of lower-priced DE firms that can do this for them. The billing rates for partners at my firm are comparable to lower V100 firms and that is for a reason. Since the big law firm is the client, they ultimately have the final say on any differences in the final brief, but they frequently defer to DE firms b/c of their expertise.

Oh, and the COL is low. Yeah the numbers may be a little misleading, but DE is way more affordable than NYC or DC. As for the luxury apartments downtown (the Residences), no one that works at DE firms lives there. Much more affordable apartments can be found away from downtown that are in more desirable areas. And oh yeah, property tax is silly low in DE and there is no sales tax. So the CoL difference is not a mirage.

DE is definitely not the most exciting place in the world, but the work there is top-notch and you will get more hands-on experience there than you will at a V100 firm. Instead of doing bullshit doc review you will do real work.

You're right about the work but wrong about the housing. Lots of associates live in Justison or Christiana, and the apartments farther away that are actually nice aren't much cheaper (if they're cheaper at all). Tho I say that with the caveat that the prices they're posting on the website are inflated over what they're actually getting for those LoMa and riverfront apartments.

The whole "signing someone else's brief" thing must be coming from a place of ignorance or else having dealt with local counsel in a non-Delaware state.

blsingindisguise
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Re: Delaware vs. V100

Postby blsingindisguise » Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:13 pm

Only crappy Delaware locals "just sign the brief." Any good ones will know the shit out of Delaware law and make all kinds of additions and improvements (if they're not drafting themselves).




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