How To Get Out Of The Veil

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How To Get Out Of The Veil

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:37 am

This post is for people that are graduating unemployed, or have uncertain futures because they struck out or do not have a decent full-time option after 2L OCI. There are three main things that I will discuss: (1) Finding a Path, (2) Getting Work Experience, and (3) Networking. To give a little background about myself - I went to a T-14 school and graduated a little below median. I struck out at 2L OCI because I had grades in the bottom 5% of the class. Even with those grades I managed callbacks at V50 NYC firms through networking and creating my own contacts (I had no previous connections, cold called every single person). I struck out but after taking the bar managed to get a consulting job at one of the top 10 Vault consulting firms (not MBB) as an MBA-level hire.

(1) Finding a Path

Striking out at OCI can be daunting and a blow to one's ego. If you have good grades, OCI can still be hard as I know many with high grades who struck out. This, however, is not the time to wallow and get depressed, which believe me, is very easy to do. This is the time to think about your real goals upon graduation, in 5 years, in 10 years, etc. If you strike out at OGI, this is the time to take a long investment approach to your future. Think hard about what you want to do with your career, and understand that it is 98% likely that a big law career will not be a part of that. If you were an undergraduate finance/math/engineering student, then the business world is still an option. Take business school classes, take transactional law classes, and come up with a real story about why you went to law school if you are transitioning to finance/consulting/etc. For me, I was a business undergrad, and my story was that my quant skills were great, but that the financial crisis peaked my interest in the framework that the markets operate in and that I wanted to learn more about how regulations incentivize financial institutions to act the way they do. Come up with your own story for the path you want to take. I know others that hit the pavement on the DA/PD side and have all been successful at standing out in those interviews for full-time. Just figure out your alternative path and go for it head on.

(2) Gain Work Experience

This is how you create leverage, or incentives, for employers to hire you. Not only will you have to be fairly charming, but you will have to work your ass off during the school year gaining experience that would be relevant for the types of jobs that you want to pursue after graduation. At the same time, you must keep your grades up, especially if low after 1L year. If you are interested in the finance industry or any type of business focused endeavors, then start networking and try and find a place somewhere to work 15 hours a week during school. This can include a transactional law firm, a federal regulator, an asset management firm, Private Wealth Management, etc. If you want to do PD/DA, then try and get in with a local judge, or a DA/PB office, or even just a criminal defense firm. Any experience that is relevant will not only look great on your resume, but will help you stand out since most do not work during law school. Work experience is important because it builds credibility, if people are willing to give you a shot then others are likely to follow suit. Also, it gives you perspective as to what most employers are looking for - someone that adds value to their company. Big law may be the only profession I have ever seen that couldn't care less about what you bring to the table, meaning, if you didn't have decent grades, then forget it. The rest of the world is not like this, and while grades are fairly important, the intangibles are far more important. Learn to pick up these intangibles (team player, good communication, work ethic, personable, presentation skills) while working part-time.

(3) Networking

This may be the most important thing on here. Networking is key to getting a job in today's world. Like many of you, I had ZERO connections to the legal world, and my only connections to business were undergraduate friends, many of whom were now in business school getting their MBA. You should never stop networking, EVER. Whether your have a job or not, you never know when a good opportunity will present itself through getting to know people. The best way to networking is through your UG and law school alumni, cold calling (emailing) is perfectly fine and if possible, arrange to meet in person for drinks or coffee. I still have people I networked with before law school (partners at huge NYC firms) hitting me up to check up on me. Even if they cannot get me an offer, it is still a great contact to have and a place for a potential move later in your career. Do not be afraid to approach people and let them know you want a job, the key is doing it in a confident way that makes them want to hire you. I got a job at well-known investment firm solely by having lunch with a managing director and asking him for an internship. That turned into not only great experience on the legal and financial side, but also over $30K in earnings over the course of law school. Be persistent, be confident, and most importantly, BE PERSONABLE. The easiest way to get someone to do something for you is to have them like you.

All of this is going to take a lot of hard work. To put it in perspective - I emailed probably 500+ partners, investment bankers, asset managers, etc. I applied to over 500 law firms, 10 consulting firms and a few investment banks, worked 35+ hour weeks, and pulled a 3.4 my last two years of law school. But I ended up with a great job, in the city I wanted to be in. If my lazy ass can do it, then so can you crazy people

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Re: How To Get Out Of The Veil

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:55 am

I'm in the vale (3L at T10)-- could you elaborate more on how you got your consulting job? Thanks much.

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Re: How To Get Out Of The Veil

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:33 am

No offense man, but this post is like someone saying "How to buy an apple from a grocery store." We are not idiots. We know we have to do all that. We do it and we still can't find anything.

NYstate
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Re: How To Get Out Of The Veil

Postby NYstate » Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:28 pm

This post is for people that are graduating unemployed, or have uncertain futures because they struck out or do not have a decent full-time option after 2L OCI.


The best advice is drop out if you don't get a 2L summer job that is likely to lead to employment and you have significant debt, at least for all job outside of PI and government (which have a different, but difficult and limited hiring timeline) People going to T14 schools still seem to think there are jobs out there for them because they go to a top school and have above median grades. Same with the people at the top of their class at other schools.

The number of SAs and entry level jobs simply have not recovered after the crash. But T14 schools still admit the same number of students. So the competition for these jobs is intense. Above the Law has a couple of articles about this recently comparing the 2013 SA numbers with the 2007 numbers. They also show that hiring in Chicago has not recovered as much as New York, so Chicago remains a very tough market.

I know that everyone will say they understand this, but the reality is that people are shocked when they don't get callbacks or when callbacks don't convert into offers, even though on paper they meet the hiring criteria of the firm.

So my suggestion is to seriously consider dropping out if you don't land a job. 3L hiring is a miniscule number of people nationwide. You can't count on getting a job during 3L OCI or during the year. Going to a T14 and being above median doesn't mean you get a job. Below median? Again, drop out if you have debt.

If you aren't sure, do a little exercise. Add up all the SAs in your market for the next year. Then look at the number of qualified students who are competing with for those jobs. Then figure they will all be filled with people who will mostly get offers. So where are you going to get a job? If you have debt, continuing in school can be a mistake.

I am not saying it is an easy decision, but the reality of the unemployed 3L is harsh. I don't care how much people like OP say you just have to network or hustle. Or volunteer for no pay ( can you afford to do that?) That is about all you can do, but it isn't easy, constant rejection leads to despair and mental health issues in many people, and, the reality is, you may not find anything.

Everyone in the position that OP describes must consider dropping out as an option. If you have debt, dropping out may be smartest move.

J. D.
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Re: How To Get Out Of The Veil

Postby J. D. » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:52 pm

Maybe this will help. Last year at this time I had supersized the panic button. I was forced to skip classes to go on callbacks at firms I believed were out of reach. A couple weeks later I finally received an offer. What I think happened was that the firm had already made their selections (and I wasn’t picked) but because a number of their selections turned down the firm the firm keep looking.

The point, feeling a bit panicky is normal since you are in the fourth quarter and still looking, but you are not at the two-minute warning. During the time it takes you to read this, firms are being told that their offer(s) have been declined. There is still plenty of time on the clock for you to score.

(If this year is like last year you may be surprised on the number of callbacks and offers extended during September).

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: How To Get Out Of The Veil

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:01 pm

J. D. wrote:Maybe this will help. Last year at this time I had supersized the panic button. I was forced to skip classes to go on callbacks at firms I believed were out of reach. A couple weeks later I finally received an offer. What I think happened was that the firm had already made their selections (and I wasn’t picked) but because a number of their selections turned down the firm the firm keep looking.

The point, feeling a bit panicky is normal since you are in the fourth quarter and still looking, but you are not at the two-minute warning. During the time it takes you to read this, firms are being told that their offer(s) have been declined. There is still plenty of time on the clock for you to score.

(If this year is like last year you may be surprised on the number of callbacks and offers extended during September).

J. D., you're talking about 2L hiring. By definition what you're talking about is NOT striking out at OCI. This post is directed at people who are graduating unemployed or who HAVE struck out at OCI. Please stop talking about your job offers and salaries in employment threads aimed at people who did not get what you already have.

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Re: How To Get Out Of The Veil

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm in the vale (3L at T10)-- could you elaborate more on how you got your consulting job? Thanks much.



Sure, I got my consulting job through hitting up contacts at the firm, who then put me in touch with people that were in the group I wanted to apply to. I had decided early on that I was going to hedge my bets in law and become more focused on finance/consulting and my work experience reflected that. So when I had the opportunity to get in front of people and sell myself, it was a lot easier than a normal JD candidate interviewing at the firm.

EDIT: I don't think people look at consulting enough as a great option with a law degree. Their are Big 4 firms like Deloitte and PwC that have regulatory consulting groups that hire law students to be high-level associates. I have friends doing this and they are starting out at a base salary above six-figures, get to work with interesting clients and their work is not as demanding as big law. It surprises me because these types of practices are growing rapidly, while the big law firms are shrinking their class sizes.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: How To Get Out Of The Veil

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:No offense man, but this post is like someone saying "How to buy an apple from a grocery store." We are not idiots. We know we have to do all that. We do it and we still can't find anything.


No offense taken, but honestly, i've seen how law students network and usually they are pretty horrible at it and come across either too desperate or too cocky. I also don't think people figure out the path they want to go down if they strike out during OCI. Most people I knew just applied randomly to whatever they thought they could get. And to be honest, I don't know a single person from my law school that worked during the school year unless they worked for their SA firm 10+ hours a week to gain cash or did some prosecution/bullshit clinic that will lead to nothing down the road. My post was trying to get across that IF you strike out, and IF you want to stay in law school, you gotta start thinking about the long haul and the story you are going to build when you finally get a break and get an interview.

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IAFG
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Re: How To Get Out Of The Veil

Postby IAFG » Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:12 pm

NYstate wrote:
This post is for people that are graduating unemployed, or have uncertain futures because they struck out or do not have a decent full-time option after 2L OCI.


The best advice is drop out if you don't get a 2L summer job that is likely to lead to employment and you have significant debt, at least for all job outside of PI and government (which have a different, but difficult and limited hiring timeline) People going to T14 schools still seem to think there are jobs out there for them because they go to a top school and have above median grades. Same with the people at the top of their class at other schools.

The number of SAs and entry level jobs simply have not recovered after the crash. But T14 schools still admit the same number of students. So the competition for these jobs is intense. Above the Law has a couple of articles about this recently comparing the 2013 SA numbers with the 2007 numbers. They also show that hiring in Chicago has not recovered as much as New York, so Chicago remains a very tough market.

I know that everyone will say they understand this, but the reality is that people are shocked when they don't get callbacks or when callbacks don't convert into offers, even though on paper they meet the hiring criteria of the firm.

So my suggestion is to seriously consider dropping out if you don't land a job. 3L hiring is a miniscule number of people nationwide. You can't count on getting a job during 3L OCI or during the year. Going to a T14 and being above median doesn't mean you get a job. Below median? Again, drop out if you have debt.

If you aren't sure, do a little exercise. Add up all the SAs in your market for the next year. Then look at the number of qualified students who are competing with for those jobs. Then figure they will all be filled with people who will mostly get offers. So where are you going to get a job? If you have debt, continuing in school can be a mistake.

I am not saying it is an easy decision, but the reality of the unemployed 3L is harsh. I don't care how much people like OP say you just have to network or hustle. Or volunteer for no pay ( can you afford to do that?) That is about all you can do, but it isn't easy, constant rejection leads to despair and mental health issues in many people, and, the reality is, you may not find anything.

Everyone in the position that OP describes must consider dropping out as an option. If you have debt, dropping out may be smartest move.

The question is, what are people doing from your school after they graduate unemployed and would you want to do that over what you would do if you dropped out.

Anonymous User
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Re: How To Get Out Of The Veil

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:16 pm

NYstate wrote:
This post is for people that are graduating unemployed, or have uncertain futures because they struck out or do not have a decent full-time option after 2L OCI.


The best advice is drop out if you don't get a 2L summer job that is likely to lead to employment and you have significant debt, at least for all job outside of PI and government (which have a different, but difficult and limited hiring timeline) People going to T14 schools still seem to think there are jobs out there for them because they go to a top school and have above median grades. Same with the people at the top of their class at other schools.

The number of SAs and entry level jobs simply have not recovered after the crash. But T14 schools still admit the same number of students. So the competition for these jobs is intense. Above the Law has a couple of articles about this recently comparing the 2013 SA numbers with the 2007 numbers. They also show that hiring in Chicago has not recovered as much as New York, so Chicago remains a very tough market.

I know that everyone will say they understand this, but the reality is that people are shocked when they don't get callbacks or when callbacks don't convert into offers, even though on paper they meet the hiring criteria of the firm.

So my suggestion is to seriously consider dropping out if you don't land a job. 3L hiring is a miniscule number of people nationwide. You can't count on getting a job during 3L OCI or during the year. Going to a T14 and being above median doesn't mean you get a job. Below median? Again, drop out if you have debt.

If you aren't sure, do a little exercise. Add up all the SAs in your market for the next year. Then look at the number of qualified students who are competing with for those jobs. Then figure they will all be filled with people who will mostly get offers. So where are you going to get a job? If you have debt, continuing in school can be a mistake.

I am not saying it is an easy decision, but the reality of the unemployed 3L is harsh. I don't care how much people like OP say you just have to network or hustle. Or volunteer for no pay ( can you afford to do that?) That is about all you can do, but it isn't easy, constant rejection leads to despair and mental health issues in many people, and, the reality is, you may not find anything.

Everyone in the position that OP describes must consider dropping out as an option. If you have debt, dropping out may be smartest move.


OP Here, I agree with this completely. I think that debt should be the number one thing you think about before making the decision to stay or not. For me, even now, think I should have dropped out after 1L year, but I didn't because I have quit everything hard I encountered in life, from college sports to my engineering major, and thought it was time I learn to work hard. If you don't drop out, it is a massive struggle and most I know are working for school stipends or doing work they really don't enjoy.

synergy
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Re: How To Get Out Of The Veil

Postby synergy » Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:51 pm

If you don't mind, could you share the timing of how you got your job? I thought the consulting firms that do hire jds hire them on the standard recruiting cycle in the fall but it seems you got it right after taking the bar.

Congrats!

Anonymous User
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Re: How To Get Out Of The Veil

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm in the vale (3L at T10)-- could you elaborate more on how you got your consulting job? Thanks much.



Sure, I got my consulting job through hitting up contacts at the firm, who then put me in touch with people that were in the group I wanted to apply to. I had decided early on that I was going to hedge my bets in law and become more focused on finance/consulting and my work experience reflected that. So when I had the opportunity to get in front of people and sell myself, it was a lot easier than a normal JD candidate interviewing at the firm.

EDIT: I don't think people look at consulting enough as a great option with a law degree. Their are Big 4 firms like Deloitte and PwC that have regulatory consulting groups that hire law students to be high-level associates. I have friends doing this and they are starting out at a base salary above six-figures, get to work with interesting clients and their work is not as demanding as big law. It surprises me because these types of practices are growing rapidly, while the big law firms are shrinking their class sizes.


Have really been interested in the Big 4 firms... however, I am not sure how to approach them. Do I just apply on their job website (like mere mortals) or is there a recruitment procedure for special snowflakes like jd's? MBB for example has a special recruitment procedures.




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