T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

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Void
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Void » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Hey, thanks for the words of comfort and the heads-up on the law school douche-o-meter. I haven't noticed the appalling behavior described of in the Vale at my T30 so far, though that may be a result of my willingness to be a hermit.

Would it be worth it to attend the EJW Conference and Career Fair if I get no interviews? Do you know of folks who've gotten gigs just from "table-talk"?


Yes. Particularly for internships (which is really the best you can hope for in terms of pre-graduation employment). Definitely go!

Anonymous User
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:29 pm

Void wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hey, thanks for the words of comfort and the heads-up on the law school douche-o-meter. I haven't noticed the appalling behavior described of in the Vale at my T30 so far, though that may be a result of my willingness to be a hermit.

Would it be worth it to attend the EJW Conference and Career Fair if I get no interviews? Do you know of folks who've gotten gigs just from "table-talk"?


Yes. Particularly for internships (which is really the best you can hope for in terms of pre-graduation employment). Definitely go!


Thanks.

What did you do your 2L summer, Void? What is the PI 2L jerb timeline like? The stickied threads focus on firms.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Void
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Void » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Void wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hey, thanks for the words of comfort and the heads-up on the law school douche-o-meter. I haven't noticed the appalling behavior described of in the Vale at my T30 so far, though that may be a result of my willingness to be a hermit.

Would it be worth it to attend the EJW Conference and Career Fair if I get no interviews? Do you know of folks who've gotten gigs just from "table-talk"?


Yes. Particularly for internships (which is really the best you can hope for in terms of pre-graduation employment). Definitely go!


Thanks.

What did you do your 2L summer, Void?


PM me

sparty99
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby sparty99 » Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:13 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Void wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I think I interned 8 hrs/wk fall 2L and 15 hrs/wk spring 2L (both for credit), and 12 hrs a week spring 3L (not for credit). Feel free to PM me for more details if you like.


Thanks, appreciate it.

Which PI employers are less grades-conscious? Interested in PD/Legal Aid.


Don't drop out. The answer to this question is PD/Legal Aid. Just get past this and focus on your goals. If you actually want to be a lawyer (which frankly I'm not convinced of, because you still seem to think you should probably just give up on the whole thing after running into a relatively small speed bump) then you still have a good shot at building a career for yourself.


Thanks, it means a lot to read that, Void. Believe me, I really do wanna stay. Getting past this is tough psychologically, though. I can't shake off the crushing sense of inferiority to my peers. I mean--looking around the classroom, hallways, etc. and knowing that like pretty much everyone you encounter is above you in rank. I've even completely stopped using fb.

Although perhaps it's good thing that I've withdrawn socially from them from a productivity standpoint; it will give me more time to focus on school work and volunteering. And, as the Vale thread indicated, law students can be insufferable douches (NOT the good people posting in that thread, but the folks they described--i.e. posting pics of BigLaw paychecks/posh conference rooms/swag on fb, bullying the jerbless, etc...see the thread if you don't believe me)


I thought you dropped out? I mean, I recommened that you shouldn't. I am you a year from now. Is the job market rosy? Hell no. But if you want family law, then your focus is a small law firm that will care less about grades. Despite my low grades at a T30, I still get interviews. I had an interview with the federal government, big law, and a small firm as a 3L. At this point, focus on improving your grades by taking classes that you know you are good at. Also consider doing externships (where you get credit) during the school year at prestigous government agencies so you can apply to their honors programs this summer or for post graduation. Consider doing those externships in Washington DC for the school year where you can work full-time. That will get you in DC where you can network with agencies and once you do that, you will have the federal government/public interest on your resume. That is far better than improving your gpa from 3.1 to 3.25.

Curiosity13
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Curiosity13 » Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:26 am

Hey OP:

I went to BU. I graduated this past year with an offer in hand from my dream PD Office. Like you, I was not interested in Big law or firm life at all. If you really want to go the PI route (PD/DA/Legal Aid, etc.) PM me and I'd be happy to chat more with you about what you can do during these last two years to make yourself the most competitive candidate possible.

Anonymous User
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:59 pm

^sparty, I would kick a puppy for a 3.25, lol.

Anyway, I didn't drop out. However, I'm scared as hell even with the no debt situation. People with much better grades than me and higher ranked schools are stuck firmly in the Vale.

It seems as if most of the fed gov't gigs are choosy when it comes do grades (look at the postings on the AZ Gov Honors site--quite a few ask for top-third, LR, etc.) So that, in addition to personal preference, is why I'm focusing on PD/Legal Aid and "non-prestigious" PI.

Void
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Void » Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:43 pm

Just curious, but what exactly is prestigious public interest?

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thesealocust
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby thesealocust » Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:52 pm

Void wrote:Just curious, but what exactly is prestigious public interest?


Things like the ACLU or U.S. Attorney/DA offices, that are probably extremely competitive and often policy driven, vs. things like public defenders in rural areas (not a knock against them, just not so popular an outcome).

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okinawa
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby okinawa » Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:^sparty, I would kick a puppy for a 3.25, lol.

Anyway, I didn't drop out. However, I'm scared as hell even with the no debt situation. People with much better grades than me and higher ranked schools are stuck firmly in the Vale.

It seems as if most of the fed gov't gigs are choosy when it comes do grades (look at the postings on the AZ Gov Honors site--quite a few ask for top-third, LR, etc.) So that, in addition to personal preference, is why I'm focusing on PD/Legal Aid and "non-prestigious" PI.

If you have below a 3.0, I wouldn't bother with fed gov't. It's weird but a lot of honors positions have that as a floor and not a lot of discretion to go around it. If you do have at least a 3.0, I wouldn't discount it. Some care about grades, but many more care about commitment to the area of law and experience interning with a gov't agency (there are ton in Boston that will take a term-time intern, which is typically not that competitive at all). I was made an offer before they even looked at my transcripts.

Anonymous User
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:22 pm

How about EOIR? I hear that they are one of the less competitive DOJ branches, but not sure if they would take a bottom of the barrel kid, even though I have extensive immigration experience.

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Kronk
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Kronk » Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:What would you guys recommend going forward?


Bro, many PI jobs won't even ask for your transcript. Same with lower-level government jobs. You're good.

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okinawa
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby okinawa » Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:How about EOIR? I hear that they are one of the less competitive DOJ branches, but not sure if they would take a bottom of the barrel kid, even though I have extensive immigration experience.

They are not terribly grade conscious, but you know they don't really hire long-term right? Maybe a handful of people every once in a while, but right now 99% of their hiring is for a 2 year "clerkship" which never turns into long term employment. Some people have great opportunities coming out of that but others are unemployed, and if you already have extensive immigration experience you might be better off just finding something permanent now. But it's worth the application at least, if you're okay with that.

Anonymous User
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:03 pm

Kronk wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What would you guys recommend going forward?


Bro, many PI jobs won't even ask for your transcript. Same with lower-level government jobs. You're good.


Thanks. This is reassuring, though I know (from lurking the Vale) that I have a long, hard road ahead.

Anonymous User
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Kronk wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What would you guys recommend going forward?


Bro, many PI jobs won't even ask for your transcript. Same with lower-level government jobs. You're good.


Thanks. This is reassuring, though I know (from lurking the Vale) that I have a long, hard road ahead.


Also, how about small firms focusing on family and/or immigration law? Do they typically ask for transcripts?

Anonymous User
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:00 pm

And, how about postgrad fellowships where you work on your own project (a la Equal Justice Works)?

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haus
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby haus » Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:15 pm

okinawa wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:How about EOIR? I hear that they are one of the less competitive DOJ branches, but not sure if they would take a bottom of the barrel kid, even though I have extensive immigration experience.

They are not terribly grade conscious, but you know they don't really hire long-term right? Maybe a handful of people every once in a while, but right now 99% of their hiring is for a 2 year "clerkship" which never turns into long term employment. Some people have great opportunities coming out of that but others are unemployed, and if you already have extensive immigration experience you might be better off just finding something permanent now. But it's worth the application at least, if you're okay with that.

You are right, the term positions are less desirable than permanent positions, but being on the inside does have its advantages. I am fortunate to be working as a gov employee (perm, InfoSec), but I have seen people that have made the jump from term to perm. A few factors seem to come into play here, one being that you get to know the people who will likely make decisions about hiring decisions, giving you a potential leg up for other jobs that should come around. Another benefit, at least at the agency where I work, is that effectively anyone who works at the agency gets on the short list for jobs that are posted. Effectively anyone working at the agency that applies for an open position and meets the absolute bare minimum requirements will get an opportunity for an interview.

Obviously this does not guarantee a job, but it can help. As a general rule, if you can land a more permanent job that you are reasonably happy with, by all means go for it. Otherwise, some of these term positions may be worth considering.

Anonymous User
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:53 pm

What would your advice be for a top 10 paying sticker in the top 10%? Drop out?

I have pretty good social skills (have been promoted at a number of jobs, because of success with clients), but am not very great at interviews in an uncontrollable way. My education pre-law school isn't that great, and I was a splitter. I am very much a working class guy with a high IQ who does well on tests, but can't get the "talking the talk" down. I could prob make 100k dropping out (don't want to out myself) after a few years being self employed. I really want big law, but can't get an offer for the life of me. Drop out?

NYstate
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby NYstate » Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:26 am

Anonymous User wrote:What would your advice be for a top 10 paying sticker in the top 10%? Drop out?

I have pretty good social skills (have been promoted at a number of jobs, because of success with clients), but am not very great at interviews in an uncontrollable way. My education pre-law school isn't that great, and I was a splitter. I am very much a working class guy with a high IQ who does well on tests, but can't get the "talking the talk" down. I could prob make 100k dropping out (don't want to out myself) after a few years being self employed. I really want big law, but can't get an offer for the life of me. Drop out?


If you want biglaw, but they won't hire you due to your inability to interview, then why stay?
I'm taking you at your word that no one will hire you, because I have no way to know if that is true or how hard you have been searching, mass mailing, etc.

But 3L hiring is almost non-existant and if you don't have a biglaw SA your chances are slimmer.

What are your odds of clerking and then getting biglaw? Your grades seem good enough. Do you have any professors willing to make calls for you if you are such a bad interviewer?

Anonymous User
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:55 pm

NYstate wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What would your advice be for a top 10 paying sticker in the top 10%? Drop out?

I have pretty good social skills (have been promoted at a number of jobs, because of success with clients), but am not very great at interviews in an uncontrollable way. My education pre-law school isn't that great, and I was a splitter. I am very much a working class guy with a high IQ who does well on tests, but can't get the "talking the talk" down. I could prob make 100k dropping out (don't want to out myself) after a few years being self employed. I really want big law, but can't get an offer for the life of me. Drop out?


If you want biglaw, but they won't hire you due to your inability to interview, then why stay?
I'm taking you at your word that no one will hire you, because I have no way to know if that is true or how hard you have been searching, mass mailing, etc.

But 3L hiring is almost non-existant and if you don't have a biglaw SA your chances are slimmer.

What are your odds of clerking and then getting biglaw? Your grades seem good enough. Do you have any professors willing to make calls for you if you are such a bad interviewer?


OP here. Anon, I would claw my eye out to be top 10% at a T10--don't drop out. What do you mean not good at interviews in an "uncontrollable way"? Are you referring to Aspergers or some kind of disorder?

If not, I'm sure this can be fixed. Have you tried mock interviews with mentors or career services people? Maybe they can pinpoint what you're doing wrong and how to rectify it.

Anonymous User
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:42 pm

What's the scoop on small firms and grades? Interested in family/immigration law....

NYstate
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby NYstate » Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
NYstate wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What would your advice be for a top 10 paying sticker in the top 10%? Drop out?

I have pretty good social skills (have been promoted at a number of jobs, because of success with clients), but am not very great at interviews in an uncontrollable way. My education pre-law school isn't that great, and I was a splitter. I am very much a working class guy with a high IQ who does well on tests, but can't get the "talking the talk" down. I could prob make 100k dropping out (don't want to out myself) after a few years being self employed. I really want big law, but can't get an offer for the life of me. Drop out?


If you want biglaw, but they won't hire you due to your inability to interview, then why stay?
I'm taking you at your word that no one will hire you, because I have no way to know if that is true or how hard you have been searching, mass mailing, etc.

But 3L hiring is almost non-existant and if you don't have a biglaw SA your chances are slimmer.

What are your odds of clerking and then getting biglaw? Your grades seem good enough. Do you have any professors willing to make calls for you if you are such a bad interviewer?


OP here. Anon, I would claw my eye out to be top 10% at a T10--don't drop out. What do you mean not good at interviews in an "uncontrollable way"? Are you referring to Aspergers or some kind of disorder?

If not, I'm sure this can be fixed. Have you tried mock interviews with mentors or career services people? Maybe they can pinpoint what you're doing wrong and how to rectify it.


I am inclined to believe that he can't fix his interviewing problem. I don't know if top 10% at a T14 is worth sticker if biglaw won't hire you. Sticker means he is at least 6 figures in debt, as you know. If he can maybe score a clerkship he can be fine, but it is extremely difficult to get biglaw without a 2L SA. Even harder when you are overcoming a huge problem with interviewing.

If it can be fixed, maybe that is a different question, if he is mass mailing like everyone else.

Anonymous User
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:11 pm

NYstate wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
NYstate wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What would your advice be for a top 10 paying sticker in the top 10%? Drop out?

I have pretty good social skills (have been promoted at a number of jobs, because of success with clients), but am not very great at interviews in an uncontrollable way. My education pre-law school isn't that great, and I was a splitter. I am very much a working class guy with a high IQ who does well on tests, but can't get the "talking the talk" down. I could prob make 100k dropping out (don't want to out myself) after a few years being self employed. I really want big law, but can't get an offer for the life of me. Drop out?


If you want biglaw, but they won't hire you due to your inability to interview, then why stay?
I'm taking you at your word that no one will hire you, because I have no way to know if that is true or how hard you have been searching, mass mailing, etc.

But 3L hiring is almost non-existant and if you don't have a biglaw SA your chances are slimmer.

What are your odds of clerking and then getting biglaw? Your grades seem good enough. Do you have any professors willing to make calls for you if you are such a bad interviewer?


OP here. Anon, I would claw my eye out to be top 10% at a T10--don't drop out. What do you mean not good at interviews in an "uncontrollable way"? Are you referring to Aspergers or some kind of disorder?

If not, I'm sure this can be fixed. Have you tried mock interviews with mentors or career services people? Maybe they can pinpoint what you're doing wrong and how to rectify it.


I am inclined to believe that he can't fix his interviewing problem. I don't know if top 10% at a T14 is worth sticker if biglaw won't hire you. Sticker means he is at least 6 figures in debt, as you know. If he can maybe score a clerkship he can be fine, but it is extremely difficult to get biglaw without a 2L SA. Even harder when you are overcoming a huge problem with interviewing.

If it can be fixed, maybe that is a different question, if he is mass mailing like everyone else.


Anon, have you been mass-mailing? Since OCI hasn't worked out for you, what other job search avenues are you pursuing?

I'm a little baffled that you say you have "pretty good social skills" but are a terrible interviewer.

Anonymous User
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:47 pm

T10 anon, I don't mind your piggybacking off of my thread, but you might get more substantive answers if you create your own thread.

NYstate
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby NYstate » Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:T10 anon, I don't mind your piggybacking off of my thread, but you might get more substantive answers if you create your own thread.


Agree. The contrast is interesting though. The debt is the difference to me. Without debt, you OP should be ok even if you never practice. T10 at sticker who can't overcome interviewing obstacles to get a biglaw job is in trouble. If he has another option he may be better off cutting his losses.

Just kind of proof that grades and school ranking aren't everything. But others may disagree with my thinking that sticker debt without the ability to get a job is a reason to give up on law.

Anonymous User
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:38 pm

^Yeah, the contrast is interesting. Personally, though, I'm still somewhat jealous of someone in the top 10% of the class at a T10, even if they're stuck paying sticker. Plus, even though I don't have to worry about debt, there is still an opportunity cost.

An interviewing problem, stemming from anxiety, shyness, or whatever, is usually something mutable. My 1L grades and school, on the other hand, are set in stone forever.

Given my interests, I'm not too familiar with the BigLaw hiring process--is it too late for the T10 person to mass mail if OCI hasn't been kind to him/her?




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