T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

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Anonymous User
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:14 pm

Is Family Law considered "sh*tlaw"? I am actually interested in and have experience in that practice area.

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thesealocust
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby thesealocust » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Is Family Law considered "sh*tlaw"? I am actually interested in and have experience in that practice area.


Then why would you care whether pretentious internet law students think about it?

Some look down on it, because this whole experience was colored by the pursuit of power/prestige/six figure salaries. Family law probably doesn't have those things in abundance, but if it's otherwise what you want to do, who cares?

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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:20 pm

Void wrote:
thesealocust wrote:Grades are everything... for big firm hiring through annual fall recruiting programs and federal clerkships.

Once that ship has sailed, or once one has identified alternate goals (as OP clearly seems to have), networking / work experience / commitment to sparkle motion / elbow grease rise in importance dramatically. That's not to say grades are no longer relevant at all, but it would by myopia to make them the primary focus given the OP's goals.

(unrelated: welcome back TLS I wish I could quit you)


I found the exact opposite to b true in public interest hiring. I just accepted an offer from a public interest employer and know for a fact that zero fucks were given about my GPA. It was all about my experience.

P.S. I agree that you should stay. The "dropout unless you get top 10%" mentality is only for people who (stupidly, IMO) went to law school because they thought it would make them wealthy. If you actually want to be a lawyer, none of that crap applies to you. Of course, that doesn't mean you will have an easy time finding work, but since you'll have no debt, you'd be in a better position as an unemployed law grad than as an unemployed dropout.


Void, what kind of PI offer did you just accept?

Void
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Void » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Void wrote:
thesealocust wrote:Grades are everything... for big firm hiring through annual fall recruiting programs and federal clerkships.

Once that ship has sailed, or once one has identified alternate goals (as OP clearly seems to have), networking / work experience / commitment to sparkle motion / elbow grease rise in importance dramatically. That's not to say grades are no longer relevant at all, but it would by myopia to make them the primary focus given the OP's goals.

(unrelated: welcome back TLS I wish I could quit you)


I found the exact opposite to b true in public interest hiring. I just accepted an offer from a public interest employer and know for a fact that zero fucks were given about my GPA. It was all about my experience.

P.S. I agree that you should stay. The "dropout unless you get top 10%" mentality is only for people who (stupidly, IMO) went to law school because they thought it would make them wealthy. If you actually want to be a lawyer, none of that crap applies to you. Of course, that doesn't mean you will have an easy time finding work, but since you'll have no debt, you'd be in a better position as an unemployed law grad than as an unemployed dropout.


Void, what kind of PI offer did you just accept?


PM me.

FamilyLawEsq
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby FamilyLawEsq » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:51 pm

OP, you actually enjoy the law and you know the type of law you want to practice. Your debt will not control where you work. I was an assistant DA and am now a general practitioner with an emphasis in family law. Yes, I am a shitboomer whose advice is typically discounted by TLS.

Please finish school. Make sure you take criminal procedure, income tax, family law, trial practice, clinic or estate planning to supplement your required courses. Please feel free to PM me.

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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:03 pm

Gorki wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Gorki wrote:Hell, people in my class are getting job interviews without putting their GPAs on their resumes, just their relevant experience in law school... It is not big law, or even midlaw, but its a job that will involve practicing law when they pass the bar. If you go into an interview treating your LS work experience as irrelevant or insufficient, it will be no surprise the interviewer gets worried that you really did not learn ANYTHING at your job...


What kinds of legal positions are folks in your class getting without putting GPAs on their resumes? Are they FTLT positions?


FTLT positions. Not the best jobs, but okay. Under TLS rules, you would prob view them as shitlaw.


What is the salary range for such positions? $35Kish?

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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:15 pm

Well, look like y'all have confirmed my instinct, so I suppose I'm staying. I'm surprised no one made the whole "opportunity cost" argument for dropping out, but w/e.

Doing an immigration gig for the fall. How many hours can I intern during the semester and still be able to be on top of schoolwork? This fall I'm only taking 13 credits.

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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Void » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Well, look like y'all have confirmed my instinct, so I suppose I'm staying. I'm surprised no one made the whole "opportunity cost" argument for dropping out, but w/e.

Doing an immigration gig for the fall. How many hours can I intern during the semester and still be able to be on top of schoolwork? This fall I'm only taking 13 credits.


What opportunity cost argument is there to make? You have already gone this far- investing your time in some other path would just squander what you've already done.

Also, it's weird that you didn't PM me.

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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:39 pm

Void wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Well, look like y'all have confirmed my instinct, so I suppose I'm staying. I'm surprised no one made the whole "opportunity cost" argument for dropping out, but w/e.

Doing an immigration gig for the fall. How many hours can I intern during the semester and still be able to be on top of schoolwork? This fall I'm only taking 13 credits.


What opportunity cost argument is there to make? You have already gone this far- investing your time in some other path would just squander what you've already done.

Also, it's weird that you didn't PM me.


^That's cuz I figured out the answer to my question by creeping your post history. :)

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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Void » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Void wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Well, look like y'all have confirmed my instinct, so I suppose I'm staying. I'm surprised no one made the whole "opportunity cost" argument for dropping out, but w/e.

Doing an immigration gig for the fall. How many hours can I intern during the semester and still be able to be on top of schoolwork? This fall I'm only taking 13 credits.


What opportunity cost argument is there to make? You have already gone this far- investing your time in some other path would just squander what you've already done.

Also, it's weird that you didn't PM me.


^That's cuz I figured out the answer to my question by creeping your post history. :)


Haha well played.

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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Birdnals » Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:05 pm

OP if after year 1 you are below median, there is likely very little you can do to get your grades up where they matter. Best case scenario you end up in top 1/3rd, then what? Obviously don't blow off grades; fotry to get them up, but don't let the pursuit of a high GPA get in the way of other goals.

It is way more important at this point getting work experience/ get to know people. For big law grades are everything, for most other law it is more about who you know than what you know.

Get as much practice area specific experience you can. Do you want to do immigration law? Volunteer at an immigration PI, get a RA position with a prof who teaches that, try to get published in a bar journal or something on the subject, write your note on the subject, etc. Find an area of PI law you want to do and do as much as you can to make your resume scream expert in that subject matter.

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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:28 pm

Birdnals wrote:OP if after year 1 you are below median, there is likely very little you can do to get your grades up where they matter. Best case scenario you end up in top 1/3rd, then what? Obviously don't blow off grades; fotry to get them up, but don't let the pursuit of a high GPA get in the way of other goals.

It is way more important at this point getting work experience/ get to know people. For big law grades are everything, for most other law it is more about who you know than what you know.

Get as much practice area specific experience you can. Do you want to do immigration law? Volunteer at an immigration PI, get a RA position with a prof who teaches that, try to get published in a bar journal or something on the subject, write your note on the subject, etc. Find an area of PI law you want to do and do as much as you can to make your resume scream expert in that subject matter.


^sounds like solid advice, thanks!
How many hours can I intern during the semester without compromising grades? I'm thinking 10-12 hours/week...I'm only taking 13 credits this semester, tho 4 of them are for a clinic.

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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby sparty99 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:32 pm

You are me a year from now. BigLaw has gone and sailed. The federal government has pretty much gone and sailed. You need to him up them small firms. There is no such thing as shit law. In this job market, a paying legal job is better than food stamps.

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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:03 am

Sparty, do you have a FTLT position, or are you stuck in the Vale?

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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby sparty99 » Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:08 am

Anonymous User wrote:Sparty, do you have a FTLT position, or are you stuck in the Vale?


Im stuck firmly on that valve

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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:27 pm

Void wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Well, look like y'all have confirmed my instinct, so I suppose I'm staying. I'm surprised no one made the whole "opportunity cost" argument for dropping out, but w/e.

Doing an immigration gig for the fall. How many hours can I intern during the semester and still be able to be on top of schoolwork? This fall I'm only taking 13 credits.


What opportunity cost argument is there to make? You have already gone this far- investing your time in some other path would just squander what you've already done.



Interesting, made the same post on JDU, and some folks were making the whole opportunity cost argument, though surprisingly, most people on that thread too encouraged me to stay.
http://www.jdunderground.com/all/thread ... adId=52324

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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:51 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I completely agree with those who say that at this point, getting experience and making connections in DA/PD/Legal Aid (or local/municipal government, which is another option) is much more important than hitting the books. Besides, it's not either/or - my grades went up when I started interning and had something else to worry about besides grades. (Work smarter, not harder, yada yada yada - spending more time studying is not necessarily the answer to bad grades, depending on why the grades were bad - which isn't really a discussion we need to open up here, just throwing it out there.)


Nony, how many hours a week did you intern? What sorts of places did you intern at?

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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Gorki » Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:18 pm

Just chiming in regarding time spent working. I worked 20 hours a week all of 2L. My GPA went up except in areas where I genuinely hated the subject matter + prof.

That 20 hours a week was otherwise wasted on TLS, FB, etc.

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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:21 pm

I think I interned 8 hrs/wk fall 2L and 15 hrs/wk spring 2L (both for credit), and 12 hrs a week spring 3L (not for credit). Feel free to PM me for more details if you like.

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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:43 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I think I interned 8 hrs/wk fall 2L and 15 hrs/wk spring 2L (both for credit), and 12 hrs a week spring 3L (not for credit). Feel free to PM me for more details if you like.


Thanks, appreciate it.

Which PI employers are less grades-conscious? Interested in PD/Legal Aid.

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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:09 pm

bumpy. OP again.

What should be my strategy for the 2L summer jerb hunt? I registered for EJW Conference and Career Fair, and hope to do the gov/PI OCI at my school, both of which occur in October.

I figure that I should get as much practical experience as possible to overcompensate for the shit grades. This fall, I've decided to intern at Family and Probate Court (~8 hours/week) and volunteer at an immigration legal aid society on the side. Is this a good plan?

Speak now or forever hold your piece on the drop out question. Final deadline is Friday.

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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Void » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I think I interned 8 hrs/wk fall 2L and 15 hrs/wk spring 2L (both for credit), and 12 hrs a week spring 3L (not for credit). Feel free to PM me for more details if you like.


Thanks, appreciate it.

Which PI employers are less grades-conscious? Interested in PD/Legal Aid.


Don't drop out. The answer to this question is PD/Legal Aid. Just get past this and focus on your goals. If you actually want to be a lawyer (which frankly I'm not convinced of, because you still seem to think you should probably just give up on the whole thing after running into a relatively small speed bump) then you still have a good shot at building a career for yourself.

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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:42 pm

Void wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I think I interned 8 hrs/wk fall 2L and 15 hrs/wk spring 2L (both for credit), and 12 hrs a week spring 3L (not for credit). Feel free to PM me for more details if you like.


Thanks, appreciate it.

Which PI employers are less grades-conscious? Interested in PD/Legal Aid.


Don't drop out. The answer to this question is PD/Legal Aid. Just get past this and focus on your goals. If you actually want to be a lawyer (which frankly I'm not convinced of, because you still seem to think you should probably just give up on the whole thing after running into a relatively small speed bump) then you still have a good shot at building a career for yourself.


Thanks, it means a lot to read that, Void. Believe me, I really do wanna stay. Getting past this is tough psychologically, though. I can't shake off the crushing sense of inferiority to my peers. I mean--looking around the classroom, hallways, etc. and knowing that like pretty much everyone you encounter is above you in rank. I've even completely stopped using fb.

Although perhaps it's good thing that I've withdrawn socially from them from a productivity standpoint; it will give me more time to focus on school work and volunteering. And, as the Vale thread indicated, law students can be insufferable douches (NOT the good people posting in that thread, but the folks they described--i.e. posting pics of BigLaw paychecks/posh conference rooms/swag on fb, bullying the jerbless, etc...see the thread if you don't believe me)

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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Void » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Void wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I think I interned 8 hrs/wk fall 2L and 15 hrs/wk spring 2L (both for credit), and 12 hrs a week spring 3L (not for credit). Feel free to PM me for more details if you like.


Thanks, appreciate it.

Which PI employers are less grades-conscious? Interested in PD/Legal Aid.


Don't drop out. The answer to this question is PD/Legal Aid. Just get past this and focus on your goals. If you actually want to be a lawyer (which frankly I'm not convinced of, because you still seem to think you should probably just give up on the whole thing after running into a relatively small speed bump) then you still have a good shot at building a career for yourself.


Thanks, it means a lot to read that, Void. Believe me, I really do wanna stay. Getting past this is tough psychologically, though. I can't shake off the crushing sense of inferiority to my peers. I mean--looking around the classroom, hallways, etc. and knowing that like pretty much everyone you encounter is above you in rank. I've even completely stopped using fb.

Although perhaps it's good thing that I've withdrawn socially from them from a productivity standpoint; it will give me more time to focus on school work and volunteering. And, as the Vale thread indicated, law students can be insufferable douches (NOT the good people posting in that thread, but the folks they described--i.e. posting pics of BigLaw paychecks/posh conference rooms/swag on fb, bullying the jerbless, etc...see the thread if you don't believe me)


I understand how you feel humiliated, but you need to focus on the fact that your 1L grades really don't matter at all for the career you want to pursue. Get back in the fight and put all of your energy into internships, clinics, and volunteer opportunities. Only take classes you're actually interested in, and only focus on learning useful things from those classes (rather than the rat race of grades and rank). Public interest employment is almost entirely about your demonstrated dedication and experience, and while good grades certainly don't hurt, grades just don't really matter that much.

Personal note: in my experience, this period of law school (your third semester) is when other people are at their maximum douche level. They all want to brag to everyone about grades, OCI, etc. keep reminding yourself that their success and failure doesnt matter, because you are playing an entirely different game than they are. As you take public interest- oriented classes you'll meet other law students like you and things will improve. You got this, man- it gets better from here.

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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:15 pm

Hey, thanks for the words of comfort and the heads-up on the law school douche-o-meter. I haven't noticed the appalling behavior described of in the Vale at my T30 so far, though that may be a result of my willingness to be a hermit.

Would it be worth it to attend the EJW Conference and Career Fair if I get no interviews? Do you know of folks who've gotten gigs just from "table-talk"?




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