T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

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Anonymous User
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T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:52 am

I've been debating this since grades were released in early June and now have 1 week to decide. Leaning towards staying.

I will end up having no debt thanks to a large merit scholarship from my T30, outside scholarships, and family support.

Despite bad grades, I enjoy the practice of law, and loved my summer public interest gig.

Zero interest in BigLaw. Came to law school wanting PD/Legal Aid type work and have a very public service-oriented resume. Interested in family law and immigration.

Halp?

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guano
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby guano » Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:54 am

Anonymous User wrote:I've been debating this since grades were released in early June and now have 1 week to decide. Leaning towards staying.

I will end up having no debt thanks to a large merit scholarship from my T30, outside scholarships, and family support.

Despite bad grades, I enjoy the practice of law, and loved my summer public interest gig.

Zero interest in BigLaw. Came to law school wanting PD/Legal Aid type work and have a very public service-oriented resume. Interested in family law and immigration.

Halp?

You want to be a lawyer, don't want biglaw and won't have debt? Stay

SportsFan
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby SportsFan » Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:54 am

No debt, no interest in biglaw, and like practicing law? Absolutely no reason to drop out. You're just going to need to hustle hard for a PI job.

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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:17 pm

What would you guys recommend going forward?

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danquayle
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby danquayle » Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:What would you guys recommend going forward?


Where do you go to school? No need for specifics, but college town, city, etc? If you're in a city, work to get yourself into a school year internship. You're grades are toasted anyway, so just try to get into the workforce immediately.

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ManoftheHour
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby ManoftheHour » Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:44 pm

guano wrote:You want to be a lawyer, don't want biglaw and won't have debt? Stay

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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:47 pm

danquayle wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What would you guys recommend going forward?


Where do you go to school? No need for specifics, but college town, city, etc? If you're in a city, work to get yourself into a school year internship. You're grades are toasted anyway, so just try to get into the workforce immediately.


large city in the northeast

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Bronx Bum
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Bronx Bum » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:04 pm

danquayle wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What would you guys recommend going forward?


Where do you go to school? No need for specifics, but college town, city, etc? If you're in a city, work to get yourself into a school year internship. You're grades are toasted anyway, so just try to get into the workforce immediately.


Not sure if this guy is serious, but this is terrible advice. OP has shown that he is finding it difficult to get good grades. Now is the time to salvage whatever he can wrt his transcript. It's the time to hit the books...not neglect school. Getting a job during the school year is a terrible terrible terrible decision.

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danquayle
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby danquayle » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:25 pm

Bronx Bum wrote:
danquayle wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What would you guys recommend going forward?


Where do you go to school? No need for specifics, but college town, city, etc? If you're in a city, work to get yourself into a school year internship. You're grades are toasted anyway, so just try to get into the workforce immediately.


Not sure if this guy is serious, but this is terrible advice. OP has shown that he is finding it difficult to get good grades. Now is the time to salvage whatever he can wrt his transcript. It's the time to hit the books...not neglect school. Getting a job during the school year is a terrible terrible terrible decision.


Completely serious. This guy isn't getting a SA position through 2L OCI. What, you want him to devote his time to bolstering his GPA for 3L OCI? Ok, dude.

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Bronx Bum
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Bronx Bum » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:33 pm

danquayle wrote:
Bronx Bum wrote:
danquayle wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What would you guys recommend going forward?


Where do you go to school? No need for specifics, but college town, city, etc? If you're in a city, work to get yourself into a school year internship. You're grades are toasted anyway, so just try to get into the workforce immediately.


Not sure if this guy is serious, but this is terrible advice. OP has shown that he is finding it difficult to get good grades. Now is the time to salvage whatever he can wrt his transcript. It's the time to hit the books...not neglect school. Getting a job during the school year is a terrible terrible terrible decision.


Completely serious. This guy isn't getting a SA position through 2L OCI. What, you want him to devote his time to bolstering his GPA for 3L OCI? Ok, dude.



Maybe you don't know how the real world works. I don't know you so I don't know. But in law school, grades are everything. EVERYTHING. Firms will take someone with a 3.5 and no experience over someone with a 3.4 and worked at a firm all 3 years. Grades are everything. Journal is important. And clubs are important too. But work experience during school is not important--especially since you can't do anythign important without a law license.

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thesealocust
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby thesealocust » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:40 pm

Grades are everything... for big firm hiring through annual fall recruiting programs and federal clerkships.

Once that ship has sailed, or once one has identified alternate goals (as OP clearly seems to have), networking / work experience / commitment to sparkle motion / elbow grease rise in importance dramatically. That's not to say grades are no longer relevant at all, but it would by myopia to make them the primary focus given the OP's goals.

(unrelated: welcome back TLS I wish I could quit you)

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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Gorki » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:45 pm

Bronx Bum wrote:

Maybe you don't know how the real world works. I don't know you so I don't know. But in law school, grades are everything. EVERYTHING. Firms will take someone with a 3.5 and no experience over someone with a 3.4 and worked at a firm all 3 years. Grades are everything. Journal is important. And clubs are important too. But work experience during school is not important--especially since you can't do anythign important without a law license.


Not true in my market at least, but I can see this depends on what you are doing for a job. I have gotten more interviews through the job I have now (attys here serving as initial references) than I did after busting my balls all of 1L. If I focused solely on grades and did not work 2L, I would be unemployed and getting 0 interviews, just like 1L OCI. So for me, your advice would have led me to leap off of a bridge by now... but, maybe your market and experience are way different, so I cannot outright say its bad advice.

This guy obviously wants to do PI, so interning and doing PI work is important. PI hiring has IMHO been unfocused on grades... these people want to make sure you are through-and-through dedicated to the lower pay and budget constraints of PI work.

Hell, people in my class are getting job interviews without putting their GPAs on their resumes, just their relevant experience in law school... It is not big law, or even midlaw, but its a job that will involve practicing law when they pass the bar. If you go into an interview treating your LS work experience as irrelevant or insufficient, it will be no surprise the interviewer gets worried that you really did not learn ANYTHING at your job...

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danquayle
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby danquayle » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
danquayle wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What would you guys recommend going forward?


Where do you go to school? No need for specifics, but college town, city, etc? If you're in a city, work to get yourself into a school year internship. You're grades are toasted anyway, so just try to get into the workforce immediately.


large city in the northeast


Apparently there is disagreement on this point, but if you strike out at 2L OCI and you're well below median, you're not getting a job on the basis of your grades. But you have a decent name brand name on your resume. If you can hook into a decent firm while you're in school, you can try to work that into a full time offer.

You're somewhat lucky in that you're in a major market. There are plenty of firms that will probably consider taking you on during the school year. Now it might be unpaid, but even if it doesn't develop into a full time offer, it gives you something legitimate to sell in interviews later on.

I don't know what the other poster above is thinking or your curve, but "improving your grades" probably means like what, a 3.2? That's not particularly more marketable than 3.0.

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danquayle
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby danquayle » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:53 pm

Bronx Bum wrote:
Maybe you don't know how the real world works. I don't know you so I don't know. But in law school, grades are everything. EVERYTHING. Firms will take someone with a 3.5 and no experience over someone with a 3.4 and worked at a firm all 3 years. Grades are everything. Journal is important. And clubs are important too. But work experience during school is not important--especially since you can't do anythign important without a law license.



Haha. "Maybe you don't know how the real world works." ... "in law school..."

Law school ≠ real world.

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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:57 pm

danquayle wrote:
Bronx Bum wrote:
danquayle wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What would you guys recommend going forward?


Where do you go to school? No need for specifics, but college town, city, etc? If you're in a city, work to get yourself into a school year internship. You're grades are toasted anyway, so just try to get into the workforce immediately.


Not sure if this guy is serious, but this is terrible advice. OP has shown that he is finding it difficult to get good grades. Now is the time to salvage whatever he can wrt his transcript. It's the time to hit the books...not neglect school. Getting a job during the school year is a terrible terrible terrible decision.


Completely serious. This guy isn't getting a SA position through 2L OCI. What, you want him to devote his time to bolstering his GPA for 3L OCI? Ok, dude.


OP here. Didn't even sign up for 2L OCI in the first place because it was largely composed of large firms, and like I said, I have no interest in BigLaw. Also, even if I was interested, I wouldn't have a chance absent a miracle.

I did sign up for the EJW Fair and plan on signing up for two regional Gov/PI fairs, in addition to mass mailing.

I'm doing a yearlong clinic and continuing weekly pro bono work--that should help somewhat, right?

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danquayle
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby danquayle » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:59 pm

thesealocust wrote:Grades are everything... for big firm hiring through annual fall recruiting programs and federal clerkships.

Once that ship has sailed, or once one has identified alternate goals (as OP clearly seems to have), networking / work experience / commitment to sparkle motion / elbow grease rise in importance dramatically. That's not to say grades are no longer relevant at all, but it would by myopia to make them the primary focus given the OP's goals.

(unrelated: welcome back TLS I wish I could quit you)



100% yes. Grades are everything... until they're not. Regardless of whether you got a SA or not, any 3L offers are coming largely on factors other than your GPA.

GPA is always going to matter for certain jobs. But the kind of GPA you'd need for those is already out of reach for OP.

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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby danquayle » Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
OP here. Didn't even sign up for 2L OCI in the first place because it was largely composed of large firms, and like I said, I have no interest in BigLaw. Also, even if I was interested, I wouldn't have a chance absent a miracle.

I did sign up for the EJW Fair and plan on signing up for two regional Gov/PI fairs, in addition to mass mailing.

I'm doing a yearlong clinic and continuing weekly pro bono work--that should help somewhat, right?


Many government jobs are startlingly stringent on GPA requirements, even years out. I'm talking federal, can't speak to local or state. In the case of federal, I'm going to guess you're already out of the running even if you do improve the GPA marginally.

When you say regional government/PI what do you mean?

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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:06 pm

The T30 is one of BU/BC, if that helps in assessing my situation...

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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:08 pm

danquayle wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
OP here. Didn't even sign up for 2L OCI in the first place because it was largely composed of large firms, and like I said, I have no interest in BigLaw. Also, even if I was interested, I wouldn't have a chance absent a miracle.

I did sign up for the EJW Fair and plan on signing up for two regional Gov/PI fairs, in addition to mass mailing.

I'm doing a yearlong clinic and continuing weekly pro bono work--that should help somewhat, right?


Many government jobs are startlingly stringent on GPA requirements, even years out. I'm talking federal, can't speak to local or state. In the case of federal, I'm going to guess you're already out of the running even if you do improve the GPA marginally.

When you say regional government/PI what do you mean?


I mean DA/PD/Legal Aid stuff. I'm not gunning for "prestigious" PI a la ACLU, SPLC, DOJ, etc.

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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:15 pm

Gorki wrote:Hell, people in my class are getting job interviews without putting their GPAs on their resumes, just their relevant experience in law school... It is not big law, or even midlaw, but its a job that will involve practicing law when they pass the bar. If you go into an interview treating your LS work experience as irrelevant or insufficient, it will be no surprise the interviewer gets worried that you really did not learn ANYTHING at your job...


What kinds of legal positions are folks in your class getting without putting GPAs on their resumes? Are they FTLT positions?

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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:42 pm

BUMP. Any additional perspectives?

Void
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Void » Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:00 pm

thesealocust wrote:Grades are everything... for big firm hiring through annual fall recruiting programs and federal clerkships.

Once that ship has sailed, or once one has identified alternate goals (as OP clearly seems to have), networking / work experience / commitment to sparkle motion / elbow grease rise in importance dramatically. That's not to say grades are no longer relevant at all, but it would by myopia to make them the primary focus given the OP's goals.

(unrelated: welcome back TLS I wish I could quit you)


I found the exact opposite to b true in public interest hiring. I just accepted an offer from a public interest employer and know for a fact that zero fucks were given about my GPA. It was all about my experience.

P.S. I agree that you should stay. The "dropout unless you get top 10%" mentality is only for people who (stupidly, IMO) went to law school because they thought it would make them wealthy. If you actually want to be a lawyer, none of that crap applies to you. Of course, that doesn't mean you will have an easy time finding work, but since you'll have no debt, you'd be in a better position as an unemployed law grad than as an unemployed dropout.
Last edited by Void on Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

EagleMe
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby EagleMe » Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:BUMP. Any additional perspectives?


I would join the people saying you may as well stick it out, given you have no interest in BigLaw (or even smaller firms, it would appear). If you enjoy law school and will graduate without any debt, you should take full advantage of your situation. That said, hustle hustle hustle from here forward, both in terms of networking and trying to bump up your GPA as much as possible. Boston is a market where knowing people can be hugely beneficial, so connections are crucial. And while gov't/PI positions are less concerned about grades (and very much look for individuals dedicated to that experience), my perspective during school was that PI jobs were becoming more and more competitive as the job market became more bleak. Fewer people getting offers in BigLaw means more people fighting for PI positions.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:05 pm

I completely agree with those who say that at this point, getting experience and making connections in DA/PD/Legal Aid (or local/municipal government, which is another option) is much more important than hitting the books. Besides, it's not either/or - my grades went up when I started interning and had something else to worry about besides grades. (Work smarter, not harder, yada yada yada - spending more time studying is not necessarily the answer to bad grades, depending on why the grades were bad - which isn't really a discussion we need to open up here, just throwing it out there.)

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Re: T30, bad grades, no debt. Drop out?

Postby Gorki » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Gorki wrote:Hell, people in my class are getting job interviews without putting their GPAs on their resumes, just their relevant experience in law school... It is not big law, or even midlaw, but its a job that will involve practicing law when they pass the bar. If you go into an interview treating your LS work experience as irrelevant or insufficient, it will be no surprise the interviewer gets worried that you really did not learn ANYTHING at your job...


What kinds of legal positions are folks in your class getting without putting GPAs on their resumes? Are they FTLT positions?


FTLT positions. Not the best jobs, but okay. Under TLS rules, you would prob view them as shitlaw.




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