Drop out of T14?

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Anonymous User
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Re: Drop out of T14?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:55 pm

OP here again. I just want to point out that the Anon poster above is someone different from myself. So just to keep it clear: there's me, someone at a lower T14, and then this other Anon poster, at HYS.

I didn't realize there were many other people in similar situations (which is naive, considering that statistically, every school must produce people at the bottom end of the median, and just the fact that law school is bound to attract some subset of people, however small, that eventually grow distasteful of it).

Lost_Dreams
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Re: Drop out of T14?

Postby Lost_Dreams » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:07 pm

OP

Since you mention you are interested in IT stuff, I will bite and give my opinion. I currently work at a large IT consulting firm, but on the functional side. (business analyst role, not developer role) Large IT Consulting firms (Deloitte, Accenture, IBM) are hiring like crazy nowadays due to increasing demand of labor. As long as you have some technical background, whether that be in education or work experience, and get an interview via networking and sell yourself well enough in the interview, you should be able to get a job in this field.

Nowadays, there isn't whole lot of lucrative career opportunities for less-than-stellar CS programmers. (baller CS programmers at Google, Microsoft, etc obvious exceptions) Most large IT Consulting shops are outsourcing basic coding/ programming tasks offshore to India, etc. However, having functional IT knowledge/ skills (IT Business Analyst role) - this is a valuable skill set that can't be easily outsourced. Functional IT consultants, based on current trends, will continue to be in demand and enjoy decent salaries. So what I would recommend is that you focus on functional IT skills (project management, ERP/ CRM configurations, actual IT project experience) rather than learning some coding here and there. This will serve you better in terms of your employability with legit firms.

I personally think IT Consulting is pretty boring and am trying to get out of this field. But if you like technology and like to analyze how technology can help businesses in x,y,z, ways, etc you will love this job.

The pros of IT Consulting is that once you get decent experience in this field, the job is pretty stable and you will make decent money. I make 80k a year now 3rd year out of college. (3 years WE) Work/life balance is decent as well: on most weeks, I average 45-50 hours a week spent on working. However, the downsides are: you have to constantly travel to random places and at least for me, IT stuff is pretty boring.

IF you truly want to pursue this field, start to network now and try to land some interviews. I can confidently tell you that getting a JD will not help you land an IT Consulting position, nor will you get a higher entry level pay due to having a JD even if you are hired.

Feel free to PM if you have specific / personal questions.

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Re: Drop out of T14?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 09, 2014 4:32 pm

I am bringing this back from last year, because I am a nearly identical position as OP. OP, did you end up dropping out? If so, how did it work out for you? I'm bottom 10% at a lower T10 (think MVP), finished 1L, not particularly enjoying my summer job, and very strongly considering of cutting my losses and running. Only thing stopping me is lack of a legitimate alternative route. But I just don't know if I have the right temperament to be an attorney, and I don't think I want to be one anymore.

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loomy78
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Re: Drop out of T14?

Postby loomy78 » Wed Jul 09, 2014 4:54 pm

relevant to my interests -- I'm an 0L with these same exact fears.. not exactly sure what I would do besides LS. LS is appealing insofar as I could work big law for a few years and then leave and do something interesting in business/politics/academia.

user has been warned for posting in Legal Employment as a 0L

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JCougar
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Re: Drop out of T14?

Postby JCougar » Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:As someone who was in a very similar situation 1L (I was at UVA) but at least liked the idea of being an attorney and who decided to stick it out and graduate--leave now. It's not worth it all. The current economy is just not friendly to new lawyers and it has hit a point where there are really many better alternatives for a career. Making matters worse you don't even want to be a lawyer. Drop the hell out. Do you know how rough it will be going through 2 more years of law school then having to study like a maniac for the bar exam when you don't even want to be a lawyer? RUN don't walk away from this field.


This. Just drop out. Don't feel shame, don't look back, don't pass GO, don't collect $200. Half-tuition after one year of law school can be easily paid off via another decent job. Half-tuition after three years cannot be.

If at this point you don't have a job from OCI, your chances of getting any decent employment in the legal field are extremely slim--even if you are at a T14. 90% of the advantage a T14 offers you is simply a bigger OCI...but if you don't get anything from that OCI, you only fare slightly better than all the other unemployed law students out there. It's still possible to make it as a lawyer, but your chances are very bad right now, and it's going to be a miserable 3-year slog from this point through studying for the bar exam and waiting 3-5 months for your results with no income.

Worst case scenario is you drop out now and it still takes you 2 years to get a job--but even then, you'll have a job sooner than if you stayed in law school, and you will have less debt.

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OutCold
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Re: Drop out of T14?

Postby OutCold » Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:41 pm

Unemployment comes with a pretty high social cost, too.

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Re: Drop out of T14?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:15 pm

My perspective is of someone several years out, at a Biglaw job.

I'm not so sure its an easy decision. I have many friends who left - none dropped out, but several who didn't make it a year. They are all miserable at their non-legal jobs.

What is your expectation for your career? Keep in mind, they pay you to do X because if they didn't pay you, you wouldn't do it. It's not supposed to be as fun as the stuff you do for free. It's not as fun as being a student. That's why you are paid ~$200k to do it, whereas everyone pays to go to college.

You need to assess if you have a maturity issue - do you have trouble eating shit? Because being a grown-up is, minimum, 30-40% eating shit (the leftover is the autonomy to do whatever the heck you want). Your bad grades make me suspicious that you have a shit-eating problem, because getting passable grades in LS is basically just a shitty grind.

OTOH, occaisionally there is something intrinsic to being a practicing lawyer that repels someone, and that can be avoided in another field. My sister-in-law needs 9 hrs of sleep; she ran away from Biglaw ASAP and is much happier in a 9-6 job where she gets her 9 hrs a night. The thing is, you wouldn't know if that applies to you because being a law student is wholly different from being a lawyer.

While the above would seem to imply that you shouldn't drop out, its not meant that way. Being a professional requires a heck of a lot of maturity/discipline, and plenty of smart folks just don't have that in their arsenal (they may be "creative!" or "spontaneous!" instead). If that's you, no point in pissing away $150k when you will never be able to function as a professional.

But keep in mind that in that case, you will probably be miserable with your job no matter what you do, and you do need to work to feed and house yourself.

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Re: Drop out of T14?

Postby sparty99 » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:18 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Reasons to leave:
  • Law is uninteresting and tedious to me; I have other things I can stand to work on for far more hours than reviewing/drafting documents
  • I don't care about being a practicing attorney.


That's pretty much all you need to know. Cut and run.


Bye felicia...You should probably go into sales as investment banking and consulting will not be options for you.

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Re: Drop out of T14?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jan 24, 2015 4:39 pm

Hey all, bringing this thread back because it's relevant to my predicament.

Full ride at T10, so I should graduate with no debt, and I'm just slightly below median after fall 1L. I'd likely do fine getting a firm job, but I'm beginning to think I'd really dislike it. I'm realizing that having time to enjoy my life means more to me than prestige and working constantly, and with 2,000+ hours per year staring me in the face, I'm feeling pretty nervous about what my life will be like. I haven't really enjoyed law school by and large, and I don't know whether it's worth it for me to stick it out.

Exit options aren't great, though I do have some experience working for law firms. Still, I'd most likely have to pivot into a new career path, which is scary. On the other hand, I think I'd be much happier in the short term being closer to my home. I moved away for law school.

If a law degree from a good school would make me more employable than a liberal arts degree and a few years of work experience, it might make sense to finish.

I'd welcome some thoughts...

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: Drop out of T14?

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Hey all, bringing this thread back because it's relevant to my predicament.

Full ride at T10, so I should graduate with no debt, and I'm just slightly below median after fall 1L. I'd likely do fine getting a firm job, but I'm beginning to think I'd really dislike it. I'm realizing that having time to enjoy my life means more to me than prestige and working constantly, and with 2,000+ hours per year staring me in the face, I'm feeling pretty nervous about what my life will be like. I haven't really enjoyed law school by and large, and I don't know whether it's worth it for me to stick it out.

Exit options aren't great, though I do have some experience working for law firms. Still, I'd most likely have to pivot into a new career path, which is scary. On the other hand, I think I'd be much happier in the short term being closer to my home. I moved away for law school.

If a law degree from a good school would make me more employable than a liberal arts degree and a few years of work experience, it might make sense to finish.

I'd welcome some thoughts...


The only reason to go to law school is to become a lawyer. Do you want to be a lawyer or not?

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Re: Drop out of T14?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:48 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hey all, bringing this thread back because it's relevant to my predicament.

Full ride at T10, so I should graduate with no debt, and I'm just slightly below median after fall 1L. I'd likely do fine getting a firm job, but I'm beginning to think I'd really dislike it. I'm realizing that having time to enjoy my life means more to me than prestige and working constantly, and with 2,000+ hours per year staring me in the face, I'm feeling pretty nervous about what my life will be like. I haven't really enjoyed law school by and large, and I don't know whether it's worth it for me to stick it out.

Exit options aren't great, though I do have some experience working for law firms. Still, I'd most likely have to pivot into a new career path, which is scary. On the other hand, I think I'd be much happier in the short term being closer to my home. I moved away for law school.

If a law degree from a good school would make me more employable than a liberal arts degree and a few years of work experience, it might make sense to finish.

I'd welcome some thoughts...


The only reason to go to law school is to become a lawyer. Do you want to be a lawyer or not?


Most recent follow-up poster, here.

It's hard to know definitively before having worked as one. I certainly thought I wanted to be a lawyer before starting law school, but my experience in LRW wasn't very fulfilling; I didn't enjoy writing the memo, for instance.

Disliking law school has me questioning whether I would enjoy a career as an attorney, and it has me questioning whether my reasons for thinking I'd succeed as one were misguided. Part of me wants to work during the summer to gather more information, but another part of me wants to dive into another career without wasting another moment.

Do you really think a free T10 JD adds no value to the pursuit of a fulfilling non-law career for someone coming out of an unprestigious undergrad?

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: Drop out of T14?

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:30 pm

There is no such thing as a "free JD." You are giving up three of the best, most productive years of your life to prepare for a career that you are not even sure you want to have--three years without pay and without gaining any kind of experience that might be useful for whatever it is you actually end up doing.

My opinion is that you should commit 100% to being a lawyer BEFORE you go to law school, even if you're going debt free.

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Re: Drop out of T14?

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:50 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:My opinion is that you should commit 100% to being a lawyer BEFORE you go to law school, even if you're going debt free.


I agree with this.
Keep in mind average life span is ~30,000 days, and you will use about 1,200 of these in law school
this makes no sense if you don't want to be a lawyer and have strong evidence you will succeed

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JohannDeMann
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Re: Drop out of T14?

Postby JohannDeMann » Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:52 pm

I would job hunt while you stay in school to keep your options open. While it sounds like biglaw is not for you, govt jobs are much different. Compliance jobs are also out there for JDs but that's really about it. But if you can't get a job, then I think you don't have much choice but to stay in school. Or change what you are going to school for. So, job hunt and just tell are your potential employers you have dropped out - but do not drop out until you get a job. If you dont get a job by the time summer rolls around, intern or clerk somewhere and see what law is about to confirm you will not want to be an attorney.

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Re: Drop out of T14?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:13 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:I would job hunt while you stay in school to keep your options open. While it sounds like biglaw is not for you, govt jobs are much different. Compliance jobs are also out there for JDs but that's really about it. But if you can't get a job, then I think you don't have much choice but to stay in school. Or change what you are going to school for. So, job hunt and just tell are your potential employers you have dropped out - but do not drop out until you get a job. If you dont get a job by the time summer rolls around, intern or clerk somewhere and see what law is about to confirm you will not want to be an attorney.


I sort of like this idea in theory, but I think it's problematic in my situation. Unfortunately, the region in which I want to work is far from where I'm now living. It would be difficult to maintain the illusion that I've dropped out of law school thousands of miles removed from my target market. Plus, I'm not comfortable with being deceptive in this way. If I look for other positions while still a student, I'd want to do it over the summer.

Also, do you think this is a conversation that I should be having with the career services office? I've been hesitant to do so because I think that a) they might not level with me, b) I don't want to come across as ungrateful for my scholarship, and c) if I decide I want to stay in law school, I wouldn't be engendering good will by waffling about my career choice.

Thanks, everyone, for the input. And I definitely welcome more.

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Re: Drop out of T14?

Postby sinfiery » Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:21 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:There is no such thing as a "free JD." You are giving up three of the best, most productive years of your life to prepare for a career that you are not even sure you want to have--three years without pay and without gaining any kind of experience that might be useful for whatever it is you actually end up doing.

My opinion is that you should commit 100% to being a lawyer BEFORE you go to law school, even if you're going debt free.

you're right but man is this a depressing statement to post to a bunch of people who are already far too in debt to get out now


(though I guess not OP but w/e, you made me depressed)

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Re: Drop out of T14?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:26 pm

Re: not liking law because you didn't like writing your memo, pretty much no one enjoys something like that the first time they have to do it, when they're learning and doing at the same time. But also my impression is that corporate lawyers don't write memos (or anything else like what you get taught in LRW).

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Re: Drop out of T14?

Postby fats provolone » Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:31 pm

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:My opinion is that you should commit 100% to being a lawyer BEFORE you go to law school, even if you're going debt free.


I agree with this.
Keep in mind average life span is ~30,000 days, and you will use about 1,200 of these in law school
this makes no sense if you don't want to be a lawyer and have strong evidence you will succeed

Jesus this is depressing

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Re: Drop out of T14?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:57 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Re: not liking law because you didn't like writing your memo, pretty much no one enjoys something like that the first time they have to do it, when they're learning and doing at the same time. But also my impression is that corporate lawyers don't write memos (or anything else like what you get taught in LRW).


While this is true, my dislike for law school has more to it than a bad experience in LRW. The larger issue, for me, is that the law feels very all consuming with respect to my life. And I get the sense that law practice in a firm is even more this way. I don't want to be constantly stressed out about work, even when I'm not working, such that it becomes difficult to enjoy the things that mean a lot to me outside of my professional life. This has been my experience as a student to some degree. I'm not sure there's any path I can take in law that won't leave me feeling perpetually this way.

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Re: Drop out of T14?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:14 pm

Bumping once again since I'm in a similar situation to OP and am considering dropping out:

-Finished first semester of 1L and am bottom ~10% at T14
-Full ride
-Have little confidence that I'll be able to do significantly better next semester (grades clustered around bottom of curve)
-Originally wanted Biglaw, but realize that that there's virtually no chance of that anymore
-Don't really have a burning desire to be a lawyer
-Have a few years of pre-LS work experience (non-law field). Job had limited prospects for advancement. Could go back, but I'd rather work somewhere with better prospects if at all possible
-Lib arts UG major

Any thoughts? TYIA

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: Drop out of T14?

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:24 pm

As a general rule, if you don't want to be a lawyer, there is no reason to go to law school.

Some people have special circumstances that might make law school a reasonable choice (like guarantees of a "JD Preferred" job before even going to law school). But it doesn't sound like you fall under any of these special circumstances.

This is really not a fun profession at all, especially if you want to compete for the jobs that pay well. There are lots of better (and more lucrative) things you can do.

NYbarguy
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Re: Drop out of T14?

Postby NYbarguy » Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Bumping once again since I'm in a similar situation to OP and am considering dropping out:

-Finished first semester of 1L and am bottom ~10% at T14
-Full ride
-Have little confidence that I'll be able to do significantly better next semester (grades clustered around bottom of curve)
-Originally wanted Biglaw, but realize that that there's virtually no chance of that anymore
-Don't really have a burning desire to be a lawyer
-Have a few years of pre-LS work experience (non-law field). Job had limited prospects for advancement. Could go back, but I'd rather work somewhere with better prospects if at all possible
-Lib arts UG major

Any thoughts? TYIA


Cut your losses. Leave now. You don't have a burning desire to be a lawyer, and any desire you do have will likely disappear once you begin working. Also, as you said, the likelihood of getting a biglaw job is very small. This is probably a blessing in disguise. Walk away.

whysoseriousbiglaw
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Re: Drop out of T14?

Postby whysoseriousbiglaw » Mon Jan 18, 2016 4:38 pm

FlanAl wrote:From my limited experience, 1L isn't a whole lot like practicing law. OP what did you do for 1L summer? If you didn't go into school for big law, what brought you to law school?

I would think that using this semester to try and take clinics and actually see if you enjoy practice (or at least the closest thing you will get in law school) and also enroll in programming classes at the school's ugrad or something to make sure you still like that would probably be more prudent. You'd also probably have a better idea of where you stand job wise and then you can drop out come winter break.


You're right on that. Law school is way better than practicing law.

I actually liked law school. Practicing (at least in biglaw) is awful.

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Re: Drop out of T14?

Postby mt2165 » Mon Jan 18, 2016 4:54 pm

NYbarguy wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Bumping once again since I'm in a similar situation to OP and am considering dropping out:

-Finished first semester of 1L and am bottom ~10% at T14
-Full ride
-Have little confidence that I'll be able to do significantly better next semester (grades clustered around bottom of curve)
-Originally wanted Biglaw, but realize that that there's virtually no chance of that anymore
-Don't really have a burning desire to be a lawyer
-Have a few years of pre-LS work experience (non-law field). Job had limited prospects for advancement. Could go back, but I'd rather work somewhere with better prospects if at all possible
-Lib arts UG major

Any thoughts? TYIA


Cut your losses. Leave now. You don't have a burning desire to be a lawyer, and any desire you do have will likely disappear once you begin working. Also, as you said, the likelihood of getting a biglaw job is very small. This is probably a blessing in disguise. Walk away.


I mostly agree. I think this all comes down to if you want to be an attorney or not-the thing is most people don't know whether they'll like it or not, but for many people it's safe to say you won't. However I will say that bottom of the class T14 chances at biglaw are not nearly as bad as people think-to the point where I'm not sure if/where the gpa floor is...especially if you bid intelligently for NYC, there are multiple people at my T14 with bottom quarter grades with multiple CB's. But again, you should probably drop out.

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Re: Drop out of T14?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jan 18, 2016 5:43 pm

Most recent anon here. Thank you all for your thoughts.

In retrospect, I probably came to law school for the wrong reasons (wanted a shot at Biglaw but wasn't 100% committed to being a lawyer). At this point I'm leaning pretty strongly towards getting out.




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