Almost 30 screeners, zero callbacks...

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NYstate
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Re: Almost 30 screeners, zero callbacks...

Postby NYstate » Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here. It's quite likely that I bid very poorly and set myself up for this.

Since there's nothing I can do about the past, I've been mass-mailing and emailing every firm I bid but did not interview with. So far, nothing.

I called my family and told them that I was going to drop out because the idea of six-figure debt and unemployment (or shitlaw) is horrifying. They have offered to pay for my legal education out of my inheritance, but throwing good money after bad is foolish. Anyways, they reacted poorly, calling me childish for even considering quitting and telling me that the Internet (i.e. JD Underground, TLS, etc.) has led me to foolish belief that biglaw is likely forever out of reach. My family is filled with doctors and nurses, no lawyers, so they don't understand the legal industry, the hiring process, or the fact that I'm on a path to shitlaw. My repeated attempts to explain how things work led to phone calls and emails from various family members, all of which derided me for considering dropping out. Long story short, it looks like I'm sticking with law school and I guess I'm going to have to gun for a clerkship.

/endrant (sorry, it has been a very long week)


OP do you want law? I don't know what to tell you. You are a little all over the place: going to one market for school because of a scholarship, transferring to another school ( I'm assuming without scholarship ), then you don't bid well ( did you get advice?) and now you want to drop out.

Poor bidding and over confident bidding has hurt people before, you aren't alone in making that mistake.

I don't understand you, your thought process or your decisions.

What do you really want here? Do you have specific practice areas you want?

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Re: Almost 30 screeners, zero callbacks...

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Jesus Christ....(sigh...)

We are not talking about grades being the end-all-be-all. We are talking about there being grade cutoffs. Above that cutoff, grades don't matter. We got it. "Whole package." Yadda yadda yadda. The issue is when the cutoff is IN THE MIDDLE of the people you interview for screeners.

Do you really think BigLaw is above interviewing a bunch of people with no intention of considering them no matter how good they interview, just to serve some purpose, like maintaining relations with schools?

Look, this is a thread about 30 screeners, zero callbacks, at a T30? I think? If we take OP at his word (no aspie, great resume), and we take this annon at his word (heard it happening to other people), let's play Sherlock and put 2 and 2 together.

I mean, it's not even a function of school. Is OP's bidding strategy all V50s? Do they even interview at a T30? Like, if OP bid at all rationally, this is bull shit.


OP here. I was at a tier 1 school before (T50) that was not in the same market as my current school, so the firms that interviewed at the respective OCIs were not the same. I interviewed with a good number of V50s, but my bidlist was pretty varied. Did I bid rationally? Probably not... I didn't know what I was doing and tried to include as many firms with the largest class sizes as possible, leading to interviewing with too many firms out of my reach.

My resume is great in that I have a great GPA from my 1L year. I spent a bit of time working for a small, niche firm, but I didn't go to an Ivy undergrad, my work experience is nothing to write home about, and I'm not going to be adding diversity anywhere.

I'm sure there are others more charming than I, but I'm not aspie. There were a few interviews I could tell went poorly, but I walked out of the vast majority with a genuine smile.

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Re: Almost 30 screeners, zero callbacks...

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:49 pm

OP, is your school preselect? Can we put to rest this "poor bidding" bull shit? If you got 30 screeners at a preselect school, your bidding is by definition not only okay, but fucking fantastic.

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Re: Almost 30 screeners, zero callbacks...

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:55 pm

NYstate wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here. It's quite likely that I bid very poorly and set myself up for this.

Since there's nothing I can do about the past, I've been mass-mailing and emailing every firm I bid but did not interview with. So far, nothing.

I called my family and told them that I was going to drop out because the idea of six-figure debt and unemployment (or shitlaw) is horrifying. They have offered to pay for my legal education out of my inheritance, but throwing good money after bad is foolish. Anyways, they reacted poorly, calling me childish for even considering quitting and telling me that the Internet (i.e. JD Underground, TLS, etc.) has led me to foolish belief that biglaw is likely forever out of reach. My family is filled with doctors and nurses, no lawyers, so they don't understand the legal industry, the hiring process, or the fact that I'm on a path to shitlaw. My repeated attempts to explain how things work led to phone calls and emails from various family members, all of which derided me for considering dropping out. Long story short, it looks like I'm sticking with law school and I guess I'm going to have to gun for a clerkship.

/endrant (sorry, it has been a very long week)


OP do you want law? I don't know what to tell you. You are a little all over the place: going to one market for school because of a scholarship, transferring to another school ( I'm assuming without scholarship ), then you don't bid well ( did you get advice?) and now you want to drop out.

Poor bidding and over confident bidding has hurt people before, you aren't alone in making that mistake.

I don't understand you, your thought process or your decisions.

What do you really want here? Do you have specific practice areas you want?


I want to be a lawyer, yes. It's what I've wanted for a very long time and I'm not caught up in some Josh Grisham-esque vision of the lifestyle. I've worked for a small law firm before and enjoyed my time there.

I chose my 1L school due to scholarship and, when I had the opportunity to transfer into one of my dream schools that I didn't have the stats for originally, decided to transfer. The thought of dropping out is sickening, but I'm trying to approach this with my head and not my heart. Incurring significant debt with minimal career prospects simply isn't smart, despite how much I love the idea of becoming a lawyer.

I don't have a specific practice area in mind. If I interviewed with a firm known for a particular practice, I explained why my background suited me for that area and why I was interested in that area, but (aside from knowing that I detest family law) I am open to anything and everything.

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Re: Almost 30 screeners, zero callbacks...

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP, is your school preselect? Can we put to rest this "poor bidding" bull shit? If you got 30 screeners at a preselect school, your bidding is by definition not only okay, but fucking fantastic.


Lottery.

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bk1
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Re: Almost 30 screeners, zero callbacks...

Postby bk1 » Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP, is your school preselect? Can we put to rest this "poor bidding" bull shit? If you got 30 screeners at a preselect school, your bidding is by definition not only okay, but fucking fantastic.

If those interviews are all with firms that OP doesn't have a shot at then that isn't fantastic bidding no matter how many OP got. Anyways, the bidding stuff is all moot. OP has to hustle, mass mail, and hope.

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Re: Almost 30 screeners, zero callbacks...

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:58 pm

bk1 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP, is your school preselect? Can we put to rest this "poor bidding" bull shit? If you got 30 screeners at a preselect school, your bidding is by definition not only okay, but fucking fantastic.

If those interviews are all with firms that OP doesn't have a shot at then that isn't fantastic bidding no matter how many OP got. Anyways, the bidding stuff is all moot. OP has to hustle, mass mail, and hope.


True. Well, just lay it out. OP, what is your GPA, school range, and the vault range of the majority of your screeners?

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bk1
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Re: Almost 30 screeners, zero callbacks...

Postby bk1 » Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Not yet, but I will have by the time this weekend is over.

Question for all of those with experience... Which is more important, a cover letter I spend 30 minutes tailoring to explain why that firm/locale/etc. is ideal for me, or getting my resume into the hands of every recruiter as quickly as possible? Do they really read the cover letter, or is this more of a matter of checking the resume to see my GPA?

Ideally you should have been doing both, but at this point you have to find a happy medium. Spend more time on firms where you have the best shot and less time on the ones that are more of a long shot. You really need to be doing this both ASAP and thoroughly (though of course those things are at odds). Your full time and overtime job is getting an offer until you have one.

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bk1
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Re: Almost 30 screeners, zero callbacks...

Postby bk1 » Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
bk1 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP, is your school preselect? Can we put to rest this "poor bidding" bull shit? If you got 30 screeners at a preselect school, your bidding is by definition not only okay, but fucking fantastic.

If those interviews are all with firms that OP doesn't have a shot at then that isn't fantastic bidding no matter how many OP got. Anyways, the bidding stuff is all moot. OP has to hustle, mass mail, and hope.


True. Well, just lay it out. OP, what is your GPA, school range, and the vault range of the majority of your screeners?

This isn't all that helpful either. Whether OP has a shot with the firms he/she already interviewed with won't change anything. The point is to hustle now as hard as possible until something materializes. Worrying about odds on past applications/interviews is pointless (yet law students spend a maddening amount of time focusing on it) because that won't help anybody get a job.

NYstate
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Re: Almost 30 screeners, zero callbacks...

Postby NYstate » Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
NYstate wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here. It's quite likely that I bid very poorly and set myself up for this.

Since there's nothing I can do about the past, I've been mass-mailing and emailing every firm I bid but did not interview with. So far, nothing.

I called my family and told them that I was going to drop out because the idea of six-figure debt and unemployment (or shitlaw) is horrifying. They have offered to pay for my legal education out of my inheritance, but throwing good money after bad is foolish. Anyways, they reacted poorly, calling me childish for even considering quitting and telling me that the Internet (i.e. JD Underground, TLS, etc.) has led me to foolish belief that biglaw is likely forever out of reach. My family is filled with doctors and nurses, no lawyers, so they don't understand the legal industry, the hiring process, or the fact that I'm on a path to shitlaw. My repeated attempts to explain how things work led to phone calls and emails from various family members, all of which derided me for considering dropping out. Long story short, it looks like I'm sticking with law school and I guess I'm going to have to gun for a clerkship.

/endrant (sorry, it has been a very long week)


OP do you want law? I don't know what to tell you. You are a little all over the place: going to one market for school because of a scholarship, transferring to another school ( I'm assuming without scholarship ), then you don't bid well ( did you get advice?) and now you want to drop out.

Poor bidding and over confident bidding has hurt people before, you aren't alone in making that mistake.

I don't understand you, your thought process or your decisions.

What do you really want here? Do you have specific practice areas you want?


I want to be a lawyer, yes. It's what I've wanted for a very long time and I'm not caught up in some Josh Grisham-esque vision of the lifestyle. I've worked for a small law firm before and enjoyed my time there.

I chose my 1L school due to scholarship and, when I had the opportunity to transfer into one of my dream schools that I didn't have the stats for originally, decided to transfer. The thought of dropping out is sickening, but I'm trying to approach this with my head and not my heart. Incurring significant debt with minimal career prospects simply isn't smart, despite how much I love the idea of becoming a lawyer.

I don't have a specific practice area in mind. If I interviewed with a firm known for a particular practice, I explained why my background suited me for that area and why I was interested in that area, but (aside from knowing that I detest family law) I am open to anything and everything.

Ok. If you can graduate with no debt and you want law, I wouldn't give up and drop out yet. I know you are discouraged. Keep up with your mass mail campaign.
There are a couple of threads here on what to do if you strike out at OCI
Last edited by NYstate on Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: Almost 30 screeners, zero callbacks...

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:03 pm

bk1 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
bk1 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP, is your school preselect? Can we put to rest this "poor bidding" bull shit? If you got 30 screeners at a preselect school, your bidding is by definition not only okay, but fucking fantastic.

If those interviews are all with firms that OP doesn't have a shot at then that isn't fantastic bidding no matter how many OP got. Anyways, the bidding stuff is all moot. OP has to hustle, mass mail, and hope.


True. Well, just lay it out. OP, what is your GPA, school range, and the vault range of the majority of your screeners?

This isn't all that helpful either. Whether OP has a shot with the firms he/she already interviewed with won't change anything. The point is to hustle now as hard as possible until something materializes. Worrying about odds on past applications/interviews is pointless (yet law students spend a maddening amount of time focusing on it) because that won't help anybody get a job.


I totally agree. Just based on an NJL article and anecdata, I am interested in if we're picking up a trend.

But let's stop pretending that we don't see the blood. We had an annon earlier ITT just say he's top quarter at a T25 and he's resigned to never practicing law. This is what happens when there are too many lawyers chasing too few jobs. Luck reigns.

I totally agree OP has to hustle. But we all have to have a collective conversation on what to do with the OPs that, perhaps, in a year from now, have nothing. What do we do? What do we at least recommend? Anybody?

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bk1
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Re: Almost 30 screeners, zero callbacks...

Postby bk1 » Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I totally agree. Just based on an NJL article and anecdata, I am interested in if we're picking up a trend.

But let's stop pretending that we don't see the blood. We had an annon earlier ITT just say he's top quarter at a T25 and he's resigned to never practicing law. This is what happens when there are too many lawyers chasing too few jobs. Luck reigns.

I totally agree OP has to hustle. But we all have to have a collective conversation on what to do with the OPs that, perhaps, in a year from now, have nothing. What do we do? What do we at least recommend? Anybody?

This really isn't the thread to get mad at the system in. This is the thread to help OP.

NYstate
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Re: Almost 30 screeners, zero callbacks...

Postby NYstate » Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:07 pm

bk1 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
bk1 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP, is your school preselect? Can we put to rest this "poor bidding" bull shit? If you got 30 screeners at a preselect school, your bidding is by definition not only okay, but fucking fantastic.

If those interviews are all with firms that OP doesn't have a shot at then that isn't fantastic bidding no matter how many OP got. Anyways, the bidding stuff is all moot. OP has to hustle, mass mail, and hope.


True. Well, just lay it out. OP, what is your GPA, school range, and the vault range of the majority of your screeners?

This isn't all that helpful either. Whether OP has a shot with the firms he/she already interviewed with won't change anything. The point is to hustle now as hard as possible until something materializes. Worrying about odds on past applications/interviews is pointless (yet law students spend a maddening amount of time focusing on it) because that won't help anybody get a job.


The only reason I was bringing up bidding is because I don't think that OP is failing due to poor interview skills.

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Re: Almost 30 screeners, zero callbacks...

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:12 pm

bk1 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I totally agree. Just based on an NJL article and anecdata, I am interested in if we're picking up a trend.

But let's stop pretending that we don't see the blood. We had an annon earlier ITT just say he's top quarter at a T25 and he's resigned to never practicing law. This is what happens when there are too many lawyers chasing too few jobs. Luck reigns.

I totally agree OP has to hustle. But we all have to have a collective conversation on what to do with the OPs that, perhaps, in a year from now, have nothing. What do we do? What do we at least recommend? Anybody?

This really isn't the thread to get mad at the system in. This is the thread to help OP.


Yea, OP needs to know what he's going to do when "mass mailing" is just..."mass mailing." Like, fuckin junk mail.

I mean, I feel OP's frustration. Does anyone have the silver bullet for OP? If you state it publicly, the dozens who are just like OP will find it out and it won't be the silver bullet anymore...

...maybe you should PM him.

Tell him to mass mail.

OP knows what he needs to do, he just needs the pick-me-up to do it. And letting him know it's not his fault, but the system's, is what he needs. I'm sorry OP.

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Re: Almost 30 screeners, zero callbacks...

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:14 pm

OP here. In hindsight, bidding strategy was poor. The firms with the largest class sizes were the highest ranked firms, and I had too many of those. The lower ranked firms had smaller class sizes, so the competition was probably quite stiff at my target firms. I'm going to move forward with the mindset that even if my interviewing skills aren't poor, they aren't sufficient. Competition is only going to be getting stiffer from this point forward, so if I couldn't overcome it with a superior interview before, I need to step my shit up if I'm going to do it now. I'll fix anything and everything I can fix.

Anonymous User
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Re: Almost 30 screeners, zero callbacks...

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here. In hindsight, bidding strategy was poor. The firms with the largest class sizes were the highest ranked firms, and I had too many of those. The lower ranked firms had smaller class sizes, so the competition was probably quite stiff at my target firms. I'm going to move forward with the mindset that even if my interviewing skills aren't poor, they aren't sufficient. Competition is only going to be getting stiffer from this point forward, so if I couldn't overcome it with a superior interview before, I need to step my shit up if I'm going to do it now. I'll fix anything and everything I can fix.


Larger class size counterbalances the higher rank. Bidding firms with large class sizes is TCR.

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Re: Almost 30 screeners, zero callbacks...

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
bk1 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I totally agree. Just based on an NJL article and anecdata, I am interested in if we're picking up a trend.

But let's stop pretending that we don't see the blood. We had an annon earlier ITT just say he's top quarter at a T25 and he's resigned to never practicing law. This is what happens when there are too many lawyers chasing too few jobs. Luck reigns.

I totally agree OP has to hustle. But we all have to have a collective conversation on what to do with the OPs that, perhaps, in a year from now, have nothing. What do we do? What do we at least recommend? Anybody?

This really isn't the thread to get mad at the system in. This is the thread to help OP.


Yea, OP needs to know what he's going to do when "mass mailing" is just..."mass mailing." Like, fuckin junk mail.

I mean, I feel OP's frustration. Does anyone have the silver bullet for OP? If you state it publicly, the dozens who are just like OP will find it out and it won't be the silver bullet anymore...

...maybe you should PM him.

Tell him to mass mail.

OP knows what he needs to do, he just needs the pick-me-up to do it. And letting him know it's not his fault, but the system's, is what he needs. I'm sorry OP.


Unfortunately, there is no silver bullet. Mass-mailing is shit, but it's the only shit I've got at this point. I'll keep sending my resume out and eventually, hopefully, someone will bite. I'm spending most of my day sending my information out, so I don't really need a pick-me-up. Feeling sorry for myself isn't going to land me a job.

Anonymous User
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Re: Almost 30 screeners, zero callbacks...

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
bk1 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I totally agree. Just based on an NJL article and anecdata, I am interested in if we're picking up a trend.

But let's stop pretending that we don't see the blood. We had an annon earlier ITT just say he's top quarter at a T25 and he's resigned to never practicing law. This is what happens when there are too many lawyers chasing too few jobs. Luck reigns.

I totally agree OP has to hustle. But we all have to have a collective conversation on what to do with the OPs that, perhaps, in a year from now, have nothing. What do we do? What do we at least recommend? Anybody?

This really isn't the thread to get mad at the system in. This is the thread to help OP.


Yea, OP needs to know what he's going to do when "mass mailing" is just..."mass mailing." Like, fuckin junk mail.

I mean, I feel OP's frustration. Does anyone have the silver bullet for OP? If you state it publicly, the dozens who are just like OP will find it out and it won't be the silver bullet anymore...

...maybe you should PM him.

Tell him to mass mail.

OP knows what he needs to do, he just needs the pick-me-up to do it. And letting him know it's not his fault, but the system's, is what he needs. I'm sorry OP.


Unfortunately, there is no silver bullet. Mass-mailing is shit, but it's the only shit I've got at this point. I'll keep sending my resume out and eventually, hopefully, someone will bite. I'm spending most of my day sending my information out, so I don't really need a pick-me-up. Feeling sorry for myself isn't going to land me a job.


No, but maybe nothing will land you a job.

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Re: Almost 30 screeners, zero callbacks...

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:19 pm

.

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Re: Almost 30 screeners, zero callbacks...

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:No, but maybe nothing will land you a job.


Maybe. But I'm not going to drop my pants and grab my ankles just yet.

keg411
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Re: Almost 30 screeners, zero callbacks...

Postby keg411 » Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:20 pm

OP - how high were you ranked at your old school? It's possible that you were borderline for a lot of the firms you applied to and BigLaw in general. Yes, it's possible you flubbed your interviews (I know I did), but OCI is a weird process and it can be overwhelming/confusing. For interview help in the future, read that HLS person's thread, which is 100% spot on.

Additionally, If you want some transfer-specific advice for what to do now (and it's not just mass mailing), PM me. A surprising number of transfers do end up getting something later in the process, so you're not totally dead in the water.

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hephaestus
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Re: Almost 30 screeners, zero callbacks...

Postby hephaestus » Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:No, but maybe nothing will land you a job.

No need to beat up on the OP. In addition to mass mailing, are you contacting alumni for informational interviews? This has been way more fruitful than mass mailing, especially in secondary markets.

Anonymous User
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Re: Almost 30 screeners, zero callbacks...

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:22 pm

keg411 wrote:OP - how high were you ranked at your old school? It's possible that you were borderline for a lot of the firms you applied to and BigLaw in general. Yes, it's possible you flubbed your interviews (I know I did), but OCI is a weird process and it can be overwhelming/confusing. For interview help in the future, read that HLS person's thread, which is 100% spot on.

Additionally, If you want some transfer-specific advice for what to do now (and it's not just mass mailing), PM me. A surprising number of transfers do end up getting something later in the process, so you're not totally dead in the water.


FWIW, I was top 2% at my old school.

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Re: Almost 30 screeners, zero callbacks...

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:24 pm

ImNoScar wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:No, but maybe nothing will land you a job.

No need to beat up on the OP. In addition to mass mailing, are you contacting alumni for informational interviews? This has been way more fruitful than mass mailing, especially in secondary markets.


Super-small market networking is the dragon slayer...a guy you know can guarantee you an interview, unlike with BigLaw...that's good advice too...

(except that those small markets have TTTs willing to work for free...)

I am not beating up on OP. Don't you get it? There are things beyond OP's control.

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Re: Almost 30 screeners, zero callbacks...

Postby hephaestus » Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
ImNoScar wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:No, but maybe nothing will land you a job.

No need to beat up on the OP. In addition to mass mailing, are you contacting alumni for informational interviews? This has been way more fruitful than mass mailing, especially in secondary markets.


Super-small market networking is the dragon slayer...a guy you know can guarantee you an interview, unlike with BigLaw...that's good advice too...

(except that those small markets have TTTs willing to work for free...)

I am not beating up on OP. Don't you get it? There are things beyond OP's control.

That's true, a large portion is outside OP's control. But I would really try to reach out to alumni in any market you have ties to. Focus on midlevel/senior associates: they are going to have the best combination of 1: influence over hiring, 2: understanding of what the market is like ITE and 3: time/willingness to meet you.

Edit: As an example of partners being unaware, I met with a partner in a secondary market for an infomration interview. His advice was to work at a mid sized firm my first summer and a mega firm my second summer and pick which of the two offers I preferred. He just did not get it. Hence why I say to reach out to associates.




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