offer or fiancee?... halp

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blsingindisguise
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Re: offer or fiancee?... halp

Postby blsingindisguise » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:42 am

Anonymous User wrote:Girlfriend, soon to be fiancee wants to be in city X it has highly ranked colleges for her doctorate degree that she most likely will get into.... applying this year. I have a big law offer in city Y, although I like the city....I am not psyched about the law firm. Still have one year to apply to clerkships and jobs in city X.
If I choose the offer, We will probably break up.
What should I do?


I don't understand the last sentence. Has she actually given you some kind of ultimatum or are you just afraid of this? If she has literally insisted that you either live where she wants or she breaks up with you, then she is NOT WORTH MARRYING. But if it's something less clear cut than that, here is what you should consider:

There is no "right" answer to questions like these. Each couple has to reach their own agreement about what is acceptable to them. Some couples are completely fine with one partner's career taking a back seat to the other's. Some couples are willing to live in poverty so they can pursue what they want. Some couples want to do everything possible to maximize their financial well-being. Generally, I think it's best to make ability to pay the bills a priority, which means that it's hard to turn down a good job in hand in favor of a possible future academic career that only might lead to a job five or seven years from now. But if you have the credentials/stats that you're likely to land a good job in the city that she wants to be in, it may not be an issue.

The bottom line is that you have to talk these things out. Your fiancee wants to pursue academia, but she presumably wants a roof over her head too, so you should be able to have a reasonable, civil conversation about it. If you can't do that, it's a relationship problem.

thenewguy
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Re: offer or fiancee?... halp

Postby thenewguy » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:57 am

Personally if ANYTHING went wrong after I made the decision to move to the city where she may get a doctorate degree, I would be absolutely sick to my stomach. Normally hind sight is 20-20 but we can foresee endless scenarios where you experience regret. I have a SO but we've both been operating under the goals first, relationship second mindset. I would suggest reaching a similar place with your girl, but I understand every person and relationship is different.

blsingindisguise
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Re: offer or fiancee?... halp

Postby blsingindisguise » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:58 am

thenewguy wrote:Personally if ANYTHING went wrong after I made the decision to move to the city where she may get a doctorate degree, I would be absolutely sick to my stomach. Normally hind sight is 20-20 but we can foresee endless scenarios where you experience regret. I have a SO but we've both been operating under the goals first, relationship second mindset. I would suggest reaching a similar place with your girl, but I understand every person and relationship is different.


You can't really have much of a marriage with two people who are entirely "goals first, relationship second," imo.

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Kikero
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Re: offer or fiancee?... halp

Postby Kikero » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:03 am

blsingindisguise wrote:
thenewguy wrote:Personally if ANYTHING went wrong after I made the decision to move to the city where she may get a doctorate degree, I would be absolutely sick to my stomach. Normally hind sight is 20-20 but we can foresee endless scenarios where you experience regret. I have a SO but we've both been operating under the goals first, relationship second mindset. I would suggest reaching a similar place with your girl, but I understand every person and relationship is different.


You can't really have much of a marriage with two people who are entirely "goals first, relationship second," imo.


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09042014
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Re: offer or fiancee?... halp

Postby 09042014 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:13 am

blsingindisguise wrote:
thenewguy wrote:Personally if ANYTHING went wrong after I made the decision to move to the city where she may get a doctorate degree, I would be absolutely sick to my stomach. Normally hind sight is 20-20 but we can foresee endless scenarios where you experience regret. I have a SO but we've both been operating under the goals first, relationship second mindset. I would suggest reaching a similar place with your girl, but I understand every person and relationship is different.


You can't really have much of a marriage with two people who are entirely "goals first, relationship second," imo.


No you really can't. But he shouldn't put his concrete, achieved goal behind her shitty academia flame. What is he going to do, live in her dorm room for 7 years? Worse, she isn't even admitted to this school, it's just a dream. Lol, just lol. What happens if she doesn't get in, and has to go to Notre Dame. Is OP going to move to South Bend? Ridiculous.

OP can massmail City Y, but when it comes time to shit or get off the pot for Firm X, he has to take it.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: offer or fiancee?... halp

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:24 am

Desert Fox wrote:
blsingindisguise wrote:
thenewguy wrote:Personally if ANYTHING went wrong after I made the decision to move to the city where she may get a doctorate degree, I would be absolutely sick to my stomach. Normally hind sight is 20-20 but we can foresee endless scenarios where you experience regret. I have a SO but we've both been operating under the goals first, relationship second mindset. I would suggest reaching a similar place with your girl, but I understand every person and relationship is different.


You can't really have much of a marriage with two people who are entirely "goals first, relationship second," imo.


No you really can't. But he shouldn't put his concrete, achieved goal behind her shitty academia flame. What is he going to do, live in her dorm room for 7 years? Worse, she isn't even admitted to this school, it's just a dream. Lol, just lol. What happens if she doesn't get in, and has to go to Notre Dame. Is OP going to move to South Bend? Ridiculous.

OP can massmail City Y, but when it comes time to shit or get off the pot for Firm X, he has to take it.

Yeah, this.

Apply for clerkships and jobs in your gf's choice city. If it doesn't work out, and it probably won't, then take your firm offer. If she gets in, then cross that bridge when you get there. If she's gonna break up with you just because you didn't throw away a job offer in a terrible economy to move to a city where she might be going to school at some point in the future... then do not marry this girl, because that's an ultimatum only someone very spoiled or very young and immature would set.

nouseforaname123
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Re: offer or fiancee?... halp

Postby nouseforaname123 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:28 am

Relative debt of the parties? Expected debt after doctorate? Doctorate field of study? First year salary in cities X and Y.

thenewguy
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Re: offer or fiancee?... halp

Postby thenewguy » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:32 am

blsingindisguise wrote:
thenewguy wrote:Personally if ANYTHING went wrong after I made the decision to move to the city where she may get a doctorate degree, I would be absolutely sick to my stomach. Normally hind sight is 20-20 but we can foresee endless scenarios where you experience regret. I have a SO but we've both been operating under the goals first, relationship second mindset. I would suggest reaching a similar place with your girl, but I understand every person and relationship is different.


You can't really have much of a marriage with two people who are entirely "goals first, relationship second," imo.


I agree with you but notice I was talking about a relationship with my SO and we are not even 25. In the formative process of your careers, I think it's wise to approach with such a mindset. As marriage comes into the picture things change obviously.

msridiculous447
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Re: offer or fiancee?... halp

Postby msridiculous447 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:35 am

thenewguy wrote: I have a SO but we've both been operating under the goals first, relationship second mindset. I would suggest reaching a similar place with your girl, but I understand every person and relationship is different.


That's kind of depressing advice.

lolwat
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Re: offer or fiancee?... halp

Postby lolwat » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:40 am

I'm not going to get into all of this relationship stuff (it's easy to provide some objective advice, while it'd be infinitely more difficult to be in the actual situation). But OP, it seemed like you're a 2L that still has clerkships & 3L year to get an offer in City X? If so, take the offer in City Y, apply everywhere in City X, and just reneg on offer if everything works out with City X.

She might not get accepted into her doctorate degree program in City X, in which case you can both be in City Y. If she does get accepted, you might also have an offer to work in City X, in which case you can both be in City X. It's literally only the situation where she's accepted into the program in City X and your only job option is in City Y that you really run into this issue. It's definitely worth talking about now, but it's still pretty hypothetical.

thenewguy
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Re: offer or fiancee?... halp

Postby thenewguy » Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:41 pm

msridiculous447 wrote:
thenewguy wrote: I have a SO but we've both been operating under the goals first, relationship second mindset. I would suggest reaching a similar place with your girl, but I understand every person and relationship is different.


That's kind of depressing advice.


Let me add a little context and perhaps share anecdotal evidence. Although my story pertains to school selection and not work, I think there are similar aspects to our situations.

I am applying this coming cycle for law school. SO is doing TFA in Chicago next year (year i would start LS) and the year after that. Currently her goal is to pursue an MD after that. When I got a 170 on my June 2013 LSAT she was all "Northwestern, Northwestern, Northwestern!!" Now if you remember me from some "what are my chances" and "choosing a law school" threads a few weeks ago, UPenn is my No. 1 choice because its' close to home for me, a great school for biglaw desirees, and yattyah yattyah yattyah. Now obviously I am going to apply to Northwestern, as a T14 acceptance is the ultimate goal. But she understands the value a Penn admittance would be to me, the value of $ at other schools, and just my east coast preference. This is not meant to be depressing advice, but I plan to weigh her stint in Chicago with very little value compared to some other things if I am blessed enough to be faced with such a decision later on this year. ESPECIALLY because she has no idea where she will land after her 2 years in TFA in chicago.

Now OP, I think our situations are similar because well the future for your SO is well shy of certain. We differ in that you actually have an offer to be proud of and are actually faced with this decision wheras mine is theoretical. To me, this makes planning career choices very risky and something you may possibly regret in the future, therefore I think you should do it carefully. By saying "career goals first, relationship second," I did not mean that you should not give a shit about your relationship. Obviously you should, and if it means enough to you, you can work out this potential distance. I did not mean to infer that a MARRIAGE can survive with this mindset, because 1) I know nothing of marriage and 2) was talking about a relationship that is occuring during very important years for your future and/or goals. People differ in the way they approach things, but I think this is a good time to be a little selfish, and me and my SO share this belief.

blsingindisguise
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Re: offer or fiancee?... halp

Postby blsingindisguise » Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:48 pm

thenewguy wrote:
msridiculous447 wrote:
thenewguy wrote: I have a SO but we've both been operating under the goals first, relationship second mindset. I would suggest reaching a similar place with your girl, but I understand every person and relationship is different.


That's kind of depressing advice.


Let me add a little context and perhaps share anecdotal evidence. Although my story pertains to school selection and not work, I think there are similar aspects to our situations.

I am applying this coming cycle for law school. SO is doing TFA in Chicago next year (year i would start LS) and the year after that. Currently her goal is to pursue an MD after that. When I got a 170 on my June 2013 LSAT she was all "Northwestern, Northwestern, Northwestern!!" Now if you remember me from some "what are my chances" and "choosing a law school" threads a few weeks ago, UPenn is my No. 1 choice because its' close to home for me, a great school for biglaw desirees, and yattyah yattyah yattyah. Now obviously I am going to apply to Northwestern, as a T14 acceptance is the ultimate goal. But she understands the value a Penn admittance would be to me, the value of $ at other schools, and just my east coast preference. This is not meant to be depressing advice, but I plan to weigh her stint in Chicago with very little value compared to some other things if I am blessed enough to be faced with such a decision later on this year. ESPECIALLY because she has no idea where she will land after her 2 years in TFA in chicago.

Now OP, I think our situations are similar because well the future for your SO is well shy of certain. We differ in that you actually have an offer to be proud of and are actually faced with this decision wheras mine is theoretical. To me, this makes planning career choices very risky and something you may possibly regret in the future, therefore I think you should do it carefully. By saying "career goals first, relationship second," I did not mean that you should not give a shit about your relationship. Obviously you should, and if it means enough to you, you can work out this potential distance. I did not mean to infer that a MARRIAGE can survive with this mindset, because 1) I know nothing of marriage and 2) was talking about a relationship that is occuring during very important years for your future and/or goals. People differ in the way they approach things, but I think this is a good time to be a little selfish, and me and my SO share this belief.



In fact, if you were married, or going to get married soon, I would say your SO's job in Chicago absolutely should come into play in a decision between schools as close as Penn and Northwestern -- in that situation I would seriously consider Northwestern over Penn given admission to both, even knowing that SO might not stay in Chicago. I actually limited my geographic law school app range because of my wife's job and family ties in our area, and I don't regret it, even though I might have been at a higher-ranked school.. Long-distance relationships are not easy, and better to avoid imo. But every couple weighs these factors differently.

thenewguy
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Re: offer or fiancee?... halp

Postby thenewguy » Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:51 pm

blsingindisguise wrote:
thenewguy wrote:
msridiculous447 wrote:
thenewguy wrote: I have a SO but we've both been operating under the goals first, relationship second mindset. I would suggest reaching a similar place with your girl, but I understand every person and relationship is different.


That's kind of depressing advice.


Let me add a little context and perhaps share anecdotal evidence. Although my story pertains to school selection and not work, I think there are similar aspects to our situations.

I am applying this coming cycle for law school. SO is doing TFA in Chicago next year (year i would start LS) and the year after that. Currently her goal is to pursue an MD after that. When I got a 170 on my June 2013 LSAT she was all "Northwestern, Northwestern, Northwestern!!" Now if you remember me from some "what are my chances" and "choosing a law school" threads a few weeks ago, UPenn is my No. 1 choice because its' close to home for me, a great school for biglaw desirees, and yattyah yattyah yattyah. Now obviously I am going to apply to Northwestern, as a T14 acceptance is the ultimate goal. But she understands the value a Penn admittance would be to me, the value of $ at other schools, and just my east coast preference. This is not meant to be depressing advice, but I plan to weigh her stint in Chicago with very little value compared to some other things if I am blessed enough to be faced with such a decision later on this year. ESPECIALLY because she has no idea where she will land after her 2 years in TFA in chicago.

!a shit about your relationship. Obviously you should, and if it means enough to you, you can work out this potential distance. I did not mean to infer that a MARRIAGE can survive with this mindset, because 1) I know nothing of marriage and 2) was talking about a relationship that is occuring during very important years for your future and/or goals. People differ in the way they approach things, but I think this is a good time to be a little selfish, and me and my SO share this belief.



In fact, if you were married, or going to get married soon, I would say your SO's job in Chicago absolutely should come into play in a decision between schools as close as Penn and Northwestern -- in that situation I would seriously consider Northwestern over Penn given admission to both, even knowing that SO might not stay in Chicago. I actually limited my geographic law school app range because of my wife's job and family ties in our area, and I don't regret it, even though I might have been at a higher-ranked school.. Long-distance relationships are not easy, and better to avoid imo. But every couple weighs these factors differently.


Not married nor quite close to being married, but I see what you're saying. And there you have it OP. Everyone is different. You have heard our takes so goodluck with you and your decision.

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Re: offer or fiancee?... halp

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:45 pm

The one paying the rent picks where you live. There are doctorate programs all over like there are law schools - for example, I can see sacrificing Cornell to go to UCLA if she was working on the west coast. Sacrificing a great job for funemployment so she can go to a particular doctorate school for her "roses and butterflies" degree is counter-evolutionary. If she expects you to just throw away a big law offer and still provide for her when she has debt and no job, she should probably break things off and hold off for a baby boomer's loser son who has millions and no marketable skills to live an upper class but pathetic life.

I think if you simply showed her the data pertinent to the modern legal economy, and the odds of you getting any big law offer coming in, if she is mature, rational and cares about you like you do her then she will understand that this is too vast an opportunity to screw around with. If she is not any of these things than it would be profoundly foolish to take a risk that may result in your being materially liable for her for the rest of your life. The reality is that while two people need to each carve out their path in the world, the plain fact is there needs to be someone supplying shelter and bread. You have already succeeded in something. She is entering a place where her odds of failure greatly outweigh her odds of success. If she wants a life with you and to be your partner, the only rational choice is for her to bite the bullet and follow you. Following her would be the exact reason why women are genetically programmed to reject beta-males - you'd be threatening your genetic survival.

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Re: offer or fiancee?... halp

Postby jessuf » Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:11 pm

Assuming that she is worth the hassle since you already decided you want to spend the rest of your life with her:

1. Mass mail for jobs in her market, go through 3L OCI, etc. now.
2. If you don't get any bites, accept your offer. Do LDR while she's in her grad program.
3. Try to lateral into a firm in whatever city she ends up in post-grad (if you still want to and if she even gets a teaching job anyway). Also see if she can try to get a post-grad job in your city.
4. If you can't get a job in her market or vice versa, break up. You will still be making big law money at your original firm and can find a new girlfriend.

bbmic45
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Re: offer or fiancee?... halp

Postby bbmic45 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:13 pm

Pokemon wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Pokemon wrote:Oh yeah... a board of anonymous posters is a great place to ask a deeply personal question.


She is basically asking to let go of the bird you have caught in your hands, with no other birds in sight, so she can throw a stone at a bird located at a tree, without a guarantee that the stone will hit the bird, and also with the knowledge that her bird will not be as good as your bird. (cannot tell, but if there are puns on my posting, they are intended.)


For someone named Pokemon .... your analogy strangely lacks catching them.

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ManoftheHour
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Re: offer or fiancee?... halp

Postby ManoftheHour » Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:16 pm

OP, this is the state of your relationship:

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TooOld4This
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Re: offer or fiancee?... halp

Postby TooOld4This » Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:The one paying the rent picks where you live. There are doctorate programs all over like there are law schools - for example, I can see sacrificing Cornell to go to UCLA if she was working on the west coast. Sacrificing a great job for funemployment so she can go to a particular doctorate school for her "roses and butterflies" degree is counter-evolutionary. If she expects you to just throw away a big law offer and still provide for her when she has debt and no job, she should probably break things off and hold off for a baby boomer's loser son who has millions and no marketable skills to live an upper class but pathetic life.

I think if you simply showed her the data pertinent to the modern legal economy, and the odds of you getting any big law offer coming in, if she is mature, rational and cares about you like you do her then she will understand that this is too vast an opportunity to screw around with. If she is not any of these things than it would be profoundly foolish to take a risk that may result in your being materially liable for her for the rest of your life. The reality is that while two people need to each carve out their path in the world, the plain fact is there needs to be someone supplying shelter and bread. You have already succeeded in something. She is entering a place where her odds of failure greatly outweigh her odds of success. If she wants a life with you and to be your partner, the only rational choice is for her to bite the bullet and follow you. Following her would be the exact reason why women are genetically programmed to reject beta-males - you'd be threatening your genetic survival.


Zero sum games in relationships are a recipe for disaster.

PhD programs are not fungible. Often there are only 1 or 2 programs worth going to in a field. PhD programs that are worth going to are also generally free and come with a stipend.

OP is lukewarm on his offer. He has "a" job, not "the" job. Sure, in this economy he shouldn't give it up until he has something better. But he also shouldn't try to kill his future wife's career either.

As has been mentioned many times in this thread, OP should seek clerkships in his fiancé's target area. If that doesn't work, and she gets into the program, he can then look at finding a job there. If he doesn't get one before graduation, he can look at lateraling. As a PhD candidate, she is likely to have the luxury of time, and he will have the luxury of money. They should be able to a long distance relationship for a finite period of time.

There is zero reason that either of them should be asking the other to commit career suicide. Unless they just aren't into each other. Irrational ultimatums are often a coward's way out of a relationship.

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Re: offer or fiancee?... halp

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:36 am

OP here:

Thank y'all for the advice. I officially got the offer, so now it's real. It's going to be hard to turn it down.

By the way, my girlfriend . . . soon to be fiancee. . . is in a very specialized field, and she's worried that if she gets a phd degree from podunk U she will never be a real professor. She's as ambitious as I am, so we are kind of butting heads on this whole deal. Anyway thanks again, I always appreciate tls's advice.

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IAFG
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Re: offer or fiancee?... halp

Postby IAFG » Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:51 am

Anonymous User wrote:OP here:

Thank y'all for the advice. I officially got the offer, so now it's real. It's going to be hard to turn it down.

By the way, my girlfriend . . . soon to be fiancee. . . is in a very specialized field, and she's worried that if she gets a phd degree from podunk U she will never be a real professor. She's as ambitious as I am, so we are kind of butting heads on this whole deal. Anyway thanks again, I always appreciate tls's advice.

Why are you posting this instead of hustling like fuck for an offer in her preferred city before you turn down your firm?

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Re: offer or fiancee?... halp

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:54 am

IAFG wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here:

Thank y'all for the advice. I officially got the offer, so now it's real. It's going to be hard to turn it down.

By the way, my girlfriend . . . soon to be fiancee. . . is in a very specialized field, and she's worried that if she gets a phd degree from podunk U she will never be a real professor. She's as ambitious as I am, so we are kind of butting heads on this whole deal. Anyway thanks again, I always appreciate tls's advice.

Why are you posting this instead of hustling like fuck for an offer in her preferred city before you turn down your firm?

Yeah.

I don't really understand this dilemma. Go figure out a solution. The worst case scenario is that you're long-distance for a year when she starts her program and you try to lateral or get a clerkship. This is the kind of thing that happens when you're in a modern relationship where two people both have ambitions. Every couple will eventually run into a situation where one person has a better career opportunity somewhere else. You just have to be flexible.

TooOld4This
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Re: offer or fiancee?... halp

Postby TooOld4This » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:02 am

Anonymous User wrote:OP here:

Thank y'all for the advice. I officially got the offer, so now it's real. It's going to be hard to turn it down.

By the way, my girlfriend . . . soon to be fiancee. . . is in a very specialized field, and she's worried that if she gets a phd degree from podunk U she will never be a real professor. She's as ambitious as I am, so we are kind of butting heads on this whole deal. Anyway thanks again, I always appreciate tls's advice.


Take the offer. Apply to clerkships. If she gets in, start looking for jobs in the area (assuming you didn't get the clerkship). When you get one that doesn't kill your career, make the jump.

While balance two careers is rarely without issues, it is really only as hard as you make it.

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Re: offer or fiancee?... halp

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:26 am

IAFG wrote: Why are you posting this instead of hustling like fuck for an offer in her preferred city before you turn down your firm?


Because I have one day left at my SA, I'm trying to sober up from last night and only have a bs assignment. Sorry if my posting here is offending you.

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Re: offer or fiancee?... halp

Postby blsingindisguise » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:34 am

Anonymous User wrote:OP here:

Thank y'all for the advice. I officially got the offer, so now it's real. It's going to be hard to turn it down.

By the way, my girlfriend . . . soon to be fiancee. . . is in a very specialized field, and she's worried that if she gets a phd degree from podunk U she will never be a real professor. She's as ambitious as I am, so we are kind of butting heads on this whole deal. Anyway thanks again, I always appreciate tls's advice.


Becoming a full professor in ANY field is a real longshot these days, and she hasn't even applied to programs yet, let alone gotten in. If you accept the offer, when does the job actually start?

If possible, I would accept the offer but look for jobs in the city where she wants to be. If you find a decent job in that city, you can reneg on the original offer, and then it's no loss even if she doesn't wind up doing the Ph.D, because you have a job. If you can't get one, then I would take the offer in the other city. If she's really deadset on staying then try the long distance thing. But it would be CRAZY to stay with no job lined up just on the possibility of her doing a PhD that she hasn't even gotten into yet. And if she can't comprehend that, you probably don't want to be with her. I mean you're talking about easily ten years before she brings in real money, if she ever does.





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