Generally, how do employers view the following?

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
Anonymous User
Posts: 273317
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Generally, how do employers view the following?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:59 am

how do employers view the following? and could someone rank them?


1. Law review write-on (not grade-on; we all know they love people with high grades)
2. Moot court participant
3. Mock trial participant
4. Moot court champion
5. Mock trial champion
6. Moot court board
7. Mock trial board
8. Secondary journal (not editor)
9. Secondary journal (editor)

MoonDreamer
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:37 pm

Re: Generally, how do employers view the following?

Postby MoonDreamer » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:how do employers view the following? and could someone rank them?


1. Law review write-on (not grade-on; we all know they love people with high grades)
2. Moot court participant
3. Mock trial participant
4. Moot court champion
5. Mock trial champion
6. Moot court board
7. Mock trial board
8. Secondary journal (not editor)
9. Secondary journal (editor)


I'd say Law Review --> Moot Court --> Secondary Journal.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273317
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Generally, how do employers view the following?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:10 pm

I think it depends on the employer. If you're applying for PD jobs, moot court and mock trial are going to mean a lot more than a secondary journal. If you're applying for clerkships, the reverse is probably true.

User avatar
gdane
Posts: 12383
Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:41 pm

Re: Generally, how do employers view the following?

Postby gdane » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:10 pm

This is a really stupid question. But, I'll play.

What kind of employer? If you're looking at a firm then LR is one of the best things you can have on your resume. If you're looking at a DA or PD, Moot Court is one of the best things you can have on your resume. The rest of the stuff that you're asking to get ranked is really stupid and pointless to rank.

MoonDreamer
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:37 pm

Re: Generally, how do employers view the following?

Postby MoonDreamer » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I think it depends on the employer. If you're applying for PD jobs, moot court and mock trial are going to mean a lot more than a secondary journal. If you're applying for clerkships, the reverse is probably true.


how hard is it to get a PD job these days?

Lord Randolph McDuff
Posts: 1587
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:37 pm

Re: Generally, how do employers view the following?

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I think it depends on the employer. If you're applying for PD jobs, moot court and mock trial are going to mean a lot more than a secondary journal. If you're applying for clerkships, the reverse is probably true.


Concur.

User avatar
stuckinthemiddle
Posts: 312
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:24 am

Re: Generally, how do employers view the following?

Postby stuckinthemiddle » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:11 pm

Tagging this.

User avatar
A. Nony Mouse
Posts: 22842
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:51 am

Re: Generally, how do employers view the following?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:15 pm

gdane wrote:This is a really stupid question. But, I'll play.

What kind of employer? If you're looking at a firm then LR is one of the best things you can have on your resume. If you're looking at a DA or PD, Moot Court is one of the best things you can have on your resume. The rest of the stuff that you're asking to get ranked is really stupid and pointless to rank.

I think it varies a little - where I went to school, the PD/DA seemed to like mock trial better than moot court. And sure, winning a competition looks a little better than just participating. But getting actual experience through interning or working in a clinic was way better than any of these things. I agree that if you're looking at firms, LR is better than the other stuff.

It is a stupid question, though.

Also,
MoonDreamer wrote:how hard is it to get a PD job these days?

Depends on where you are and what your qualifications are. Also, it helps if you complete the interview requirements.
Last edited by A. Nony Mouse on Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273317
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Generally, how do employers view the following?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:35 pm

OP here. t-10 school, wrote onto law review, looking at biglaw jobs. I heard from rising 3L's that write-on's are basically worthless, so i want to know if that is true. I'm also considering some of the other options to go with the write-on

gdane, thank you for the obvious statement. please "play" elsewhere

anonymous2012
Posts: 82
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Generally, how do employers view the following?

Postby anonymous2012 » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here. t-10 school, wrote onto law review, looking at biglaw jobs. I heard from rising 3L's that write-on's are basically worthless, so i want to know if that is true. I'm also considering some of the other options to go with the write-on

gdane, thank you for the obvious statement. please "play" elsewhere


From my T20, if say it depends on the firm. Regional firms with strong ties to particular schools are more likely to be impressed by it (this is probably less true for you at a T10). But write-on is not a substitute for passable grades, it's just a nice advantage over similarly ranked students.

Bid according to your grades.

msridiculous447
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:59 am

Re: Generally, how do employers view the following?

Postby msridiculous447 » Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here. t-10 school, wrote onto law review, looking at biglaw jobs. I heard from rising 3L's that write-on's are basically worthless, so i want to know if that is true. I'm also considering some of the other options to go with the write-on

gdane, thank you for the obvious statement. please "play" elsewhere


LR is a signaling device. Students on LR get good jobs because most of them have good grades. I don't think there's any unique experience you get on LR (vs. a secondary journal) that make you better situated for biglaw. So yeah, I think your friends are right—LR normally is a reflection of your grades; to the extent that it's not, it's less helpful.

JusticeJackson
Posts: 454
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:26 am

Re: Generally, how do employers view the following?

Postby JusticeJackson » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:08 pm

.
Last edited by JusticeJackson on Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
sundance95
Posts: 2123
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:44 pm

Re: Generally, how do employers view the following?

Postby sundance95 » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here. t-10 school, wrote onto law review, looking at biglaw jobs. I heard from rising 3L's that write-on's are basically worthless, so i want to know if that is true. I'm also considering some of the other options to go with the write-on

gdane, thank you for the obvious statement. please "play" elsewhere

well your rising 3Ls friends are wrong, and sound douchey to boot.

think about it--every student with a gpa above a certain point is going to have LR. thus, LR doesn't distinguish any student above that gpa threshold from any other student above that threshold.

on the other hand, a write-on has something that his gpa-peers don't--LR. if you're a firm and you are comparing two just-above median students, and one has LR and one doesn't, what are you gonna do?

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18421
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Generally, how do employers view the following?

Postby bk1 » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here. t-10 school, wrote onto law review, looking at biglaw jobs. I heard from rising 3L's that write-on's are basically worthless, so i want to know if that is true. I'm also considering some of the other options to go with the write-on

Having LR isn't going to make you competitive at any firm where your GPA doesn't already make you competitive. That is why people say that LR isn't that big a deal for biglaw (whether it's write on or grade on). Sure, firms like it and it's going to be a nice thing to have, but you aren't going to be looking at any different firms than you would if you didn't have it and you likely won't be a ton more successful because of it. All of the other stuff is also pretty much irrelevant to biglaw because biglaw hires during summer/fall of 2L and the rest of what you listed are things that you get after that time period so you won't even have the option to have them on your resume while interviewing with biglaw.

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18421
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Generally, how do employers view the following?

Postby bk1 » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:15 pm

sundance95 wrote:well your rising 3Ls friends are wrong, and sound douchey to boot.

think about it--every student with a gpa above a certain point is going to have LR. thus, LR doesn't distinguish any student above that gpa threshold from any other student above that threshold.

on the other hand, a write-on has something that his gpa-peers don't--LR. if you're a firm and you are comparing two just-above median students, and one has LR and one doesn't, what are you gonna do?

Eh. I'm sure that LR gets factored in but it is going to be one of a whole host of factors. I doubt it's going to make a significant difference. Not sure that it's douchey if their assessment is generally correct (I assume they mean that having written on is worthless, not that the people who write on are worthless themselves).

mr.hands
Posts: 892
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:23 pm

Re: Generally, how do employers view the following?

Postby mr.hands » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:24 pm

I think this might make a difference of its a T14 LR. Those write-ons may get a boost. A T40 median student who writes on isn't going to see much of a boost. (An Iowa or American student who writes on is still fucked)

I'm biased, though

User avatar
sundance95
Posts: 2123
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:44 pm

Re: Generally, how do employers view the following?

Postby sundance95 » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:26 pm

bk1 wrote:Not sure that it's douchey if their assessment is generally correct (I assume they mean that having written on is worthless, not that the people who write on are worthless themselves).

ah, if that's what they meant i obviously retract douchey

Anonymous User
Posts: 273317
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Generally, how do employers view the following?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:56 pm

This is why so many law grads are struggling in the market. Every student places strong emphasis on academic work, but fails to realize that "real world" work experience matters more than anything. I delayed law school for a year to gain legal work experience in a law firm and it ultimately led to an SA position. Education reform in this country is a must.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273317
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Generally, how do employers view the following?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:This is why so many law grads are struggling in the market. Every student places strong emphasis on academic work, but fails to realize that "real world" work experience matters more than anything. I delayed law school for a year to gain legal work experience in a law firm and it ultimately led to an SA position. Education reform in this country is a must.


Lolz. Grades are probably 90%+ of hiring.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273317
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Generally, how do employers view the following?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:45 pm

Unfortunately, writing on to LR is not a magic bullet at OCI. It likely helps, but marginally - temper expectations.

At my T14, the people on my journal who clearly wrote on (i.e. their grades weren't in the top 1/3), seemed to have a rougher go of OCI than those on secondary journals with higher grades.

Still, it can't hurt - and any help, even a marginal boost, is useful. Just don't aim too high with firms: your targets are still the firms in your GPA range (look at your school's history). The difference is, you might have a little more success with those firms.

Gorki
Posts: 772
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:41 pm

Re: Generally, how do employers view the following?

Postby Gorki » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:51 pm

msridiculous447 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here. t-10 school, wrote onto law review, looking at biglaw jobs. I heard from rising 3L's that write-on's are basically worthless, so i want to know if that is true. I'm also considering some of the other options to go with the write-on

gdane, thank you for the obvious statement. please "play" elsewhere


LR is a signaling device. Students on LR get good jobs because most of them have good grades. I don't think there's any unique experience you get on LR (vs. a secondary journal) that make you better situated for biglaw. So yeah, I think your friends are right—LR normally is a reflection of your grades; to the extent that it's not, it's less helpful.


Confirming this. LR will maybe get you interviews at firms that would never talk to you, but if your grades are not good then the interview is just a face courtesy to help out an alum partner, firm-alum prof, or the school in general.

LR in itself does nothing for you, unless you get EIC firms and employers really do not care... Especially if the other positions are confusingly similar (e.g., Assistant Editor, Associate Editor, Articles Editor) and no employer gives a damn enough to waste billable time browsing through some website to find your journal.

Anonymous Associate
Posts: 159
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:54 pm

Re: Generally, how do employers view the following?

Postby Anonymous Associate » Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:32 am

This might be a bit tangential, but this is going to depend on the person you are interviewing with, as well as the firm. As someone who is practically minded and who conducts interviews (so far have only interviewed laterals, but would feel the same for a law student), I would care WAY more about the moot court/trial participation and awards. I presume you are going into litigation. Journal work is just not relevant to the work we do in litigation at a big firm - we need people who can research, write, and generally understands evidence and pre-trial procedure, trial procedure, and post-trial procedure.

This is not the traditional way of thinking though-I am sure a lot of firms and interviewers really value law review. I don't really know about the difference between grade-on and write-on. Get a sense of what your interviewer is focusing on with their questions. This will clue you in on how to handle the interview and what to focus on yourself.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273317
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Generally, how do employers view the following?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:50 pm

Anonymous Associate wrote:This might be a bit tangential, but this is going to depend on the person you are interviewing with, as well as the firm. As someone who is practically minded and who conducts interviews (so far have only interviewed laterals, but would feel the same for a law student), I would care WAY more about the moot court/trial participation and awards. I presume you are going into litigation. Journal work is just not relevant to the work we do in litigation at a big firm - we need people who can research, write, and generally understands evidence and pre-trial procedure, trial procedure, and post-trial procedure.

This is not the traditional way of thinking though-I am sure a lot of firms and interviewers really value law review. I don't really know about the difference between grade-on and write-on. Get a sense of what your interviewer is focusing on with their questions. This will clue you in on how to handle the interview and what to focus on yourself.


OP here. Thanks a lot. I was wondering if I should do moot court as well.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273317
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Generally, how do employers view the following?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:13 am

Anonymous User wrote:how do employers view the following? and could someone rank them?


1. Law review write-on (not grade-on; we all know they love people with high grades)
2. Moot court participant
3. Mock trial participant
4. Moot court champion
5. Mock trial champion
6. Moot court board
7. Mock trial board
8. Secondary journal (not editor)
9. Secondary journal (editor)



Number of dashes denotes level of separation between things in my opinion:

Law Review of any kind ----->
Quality Secondary Journal (respected in some field) ->
Moot Court Champion at a decent size competition ->
Honors Moot Court Board (earn it through competition, etc) ->
Moot Court Board via application interview (many schools do this) --------------->
Moot Court participant

I don't think anybody gives a shit about secondary journal editors who aren't editor in chief. Nobody gives a shit about shitty secondary journals (contrast with respected secondary journals). Nobody gives a shit about mock trial unless they were participants themselves, which is just a lucky extracurricular bonus that could come from things like hobbies. If you are going to devote your time to something then get on the flagship law review if you possibly can. If you can't, be editor in chief of a secondary. If you can't do that, go WIN some competitions. That will at least give you a winner narrative.

If you aren't competitive for biglaw then mock trial and a good knowledge of pre-trial litigation procedures will go a long way with smaller litigation firms. That is job-skill stuff.

The truth is that flagship law review + grades is 95% of the battle in getting an interview. After you get an interview it is just all you from there. I came through my job search very successful but also very cynical.

User avatar
sundance95
Posts: 2123
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:44 pm

Re: Generally, how do employers view the following?

Postby sundance95 » Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Nobody gives a shit about shitty secondary journals (contrast with respected secondary journals). Nobody gives a shit about mock trial unless they were participants themselves, which is just a lucky extracurricular bonus that could come from things like hobbies you're gunning for prosecuting or PD work.

There you go.




Return to “Legal Employment”

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.