Friend's awkward SA situation - what's the etiquette?

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guano
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Re: Friend's awkward SA situation - what's the etiquette?

Postby guano » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:34 pm

Icculus wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I always send an email in this type of situation because I've been burned too many times in the past.

I'm also that obnoxious person who adds generous CCs to emails, just so that 1) the recipient knows that I am watching for them to reply and everyone who is CC'd is also watching now too, 2) multiple people will know that I am actively following up on an assignment. Yes, it's stupid to have to play these games, but get used to it, it's not just law firms that are on your ass like this. Sometimes I like to send an email out even if I've talked to someone about something IRL, just so that there is a paper trail that I can point to later if need be. Better safe than sorry, though you have to be sensitive to the dynamics of your work environment - obviously there may be situations where copying an authority figure unnecessarily will make you look bad.


This. I have done it in every job I have ever had.

Hell, there's nothing wrong with sending an email that starts with "per our conversation, my understanding is..."

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Icculus
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Re: Friend's awkward SA situation - what's the etiquette?

Postby Icculus » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:35 pm

guano wrote:
Icculus wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I always send an email in this type of situation because I've been burned too many times in the past.

I'm also that obnoxious person who adds generous CCs to emails, just so that 1) the recipient knows that I am watching for them to reply and everyone who is CC'd is also watching now too, 2) multiple people will know that I am actively following up on an assignment. Yes, it's stupid to have to play these games, but get used to it, it's not just law firms that are on your ass like this. Sometimes I like to send an email out even if I've talked to someone about something IRL, just so that there is a paper trail that I can point to later if need be. Better safe than sorry, though you have to be sensitive to the dynamics of your work environment - obviously there may be situations where copying an authority figure unnecessarily will make you look bad.


This. I have done it in every job I have ever had.

Hell, there's nothing wrong with sending an email that starts with "per our conversation, my understanding is..."


exactly, and it lowers the chances of a fuck up.

onehellofaride
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Re: Friend's awkward SA situation - what's the etiquette?

Postby onehellofaride » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:27 pm

How often do you guys get put in positions where you're blamed for a mistake and it wasn't your fault? It sounds like you are being obsessive compulsive, and I wouldn't want to work with either of you. At my summer position I spoke with attorneys on the regular and NEVER sent out an e-mail with superfluous CC's just to cover my ass (/have never done this anywhere I have ever worked). I would find that incredibly subversive and disrespectful to receive an e-mail from a summer associate detailing a conversation I had with them with others CC'd in order to keep ME accountable. Have a little decency, and expect it from others. Don't throw people under the bus, but also just do your work and do it well and there won't be a problem (example - this person's friend ended up with an offer).

Or, you're just typical TLS'ers who over-examine, over-analyze, over-prepare, and tend to obsess over every minutia and detail in possibly every facet of life. Ah-ha, just remembered which forum I was visiting...

potted plant
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Re: Friend's awkward SA situation - what's the etiquette?

Postby potted plant » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:49 pm

onehellofaride wrote:How often do you guys get put in positions where you're blamed for a mistake and it wasn't your fault? It sounds like you are being obsessive compulsive, and I wouldn't want to work with either of you. At my summer position I spoke with attorneys on the regular and NEVER sent out an e-mail with superfluous CC's just to cover my ass (/have never done this anywhere I have ever worked). I would find that incredibly subversive and disrespectful to receive an e-mail from a summer associate detailing a conversation I had with them with others CC'd in order to keep ME accountable. Have a little decency, and expect it from others. Don't throw people under the bus, but also just do your work and do it well and there won't be a problem (example - this person's friend ended up with an offer).

Or, you're just typical TLS'ers who over-examine, over-analyze, over-prepare, and tend to obsess over every minutia and detail in possibly every facet of life. Ah-ha, just remembered which forum I was visiting...

The point of CCing people on an email is not just to keep the associate accountable. It's to make sure other people know that you're trying and you're not a slacker. If you do that on a regular basis even people that you don't interact with regularly are going to think of you as conscientious and responsive. It's easy to make assumptions about someone you don't know well. So if you work with someone for the first time and there's some sort of miscommunication that makes you seem lazy and that's the first impression they really form about you, it's going to be an uphill battle to change their mind. But if you've subtly established that you're not lazy and non-responsive, they're more likely to think of it as a one time mix-up and not a defining personality trait. Just because you're trying hard and mean well doesn't mean that other people are going to perceive you that way. They don't know anything about you. It's your job to show them you're not dead weight.

Also, if someone thinks you're being subversive because you cc someone on an email they're overreacting. This is very common practice. Obviously you wouldn't cc people at random, just other people who are working on the project or have an interest in the project. Often they'll like being kept in the loop.

blsingindisguise
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Re: Friend's awkward SA situation - what's the etiquette?

Postby blsingindisguise » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:54 pm

onehellofaride wrote:How often do you guys get put in positions where you're blamed for a mistake and it wasn't your fault? It sounds like you are being obsessive compulsive, and I wouldn't want to work with either of you. At my summer position I spoke with attorneys on the regular and NEVER sent out an e-mail with superfluous CC's just to cover my ass (/have never done this anywhere I have ever worked). I would find that incredibly subversive and disrespectful to receive an e-mail from a summer associate detailing a conversation I had with them with others CC'd in order to keep ME accountable. Have a little decency, and expect it from others. Don't throw people under the bus, but also just do your work and do it well and there won't be a problem (example - this person's friend ended up with an offer).

Or, you're just typical TLS'ers who over-examine, over-analyze, over-prepare, and tend to obsess over every minutia and detail in possibly every facet of life. Ah-ha, just remembered which forum I was visiting...


It is almost always better to err on the side of CC'ing people working on the project for reasons that go well beyond just covering your own ass, although that's one of them. Of course some judgment is called for -- if you have a senior partner at the top of the case who's kind of 10,000 feet/big picture about things, you're not going to CC him on an e-mail about what margin size the court requires. But it's generally better to keep people informed of everything that's going on.

But I guess you know better than everyone else from your extensive summer associate experience.

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guano
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Re: Friend's awkward SA situation - what's the etiquette?

Postby guano » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:32 pm

onehellofaride wrote:How often do you guys get put in positions where you're blamed for a mistake and it wasn't your fault? It sounds like you are being obsessive compulsive, and I wouldn't want to work with either of you. At my summer position I spoke with attorneys on the regular and NEVER sent out an e-mail with superfluous CC's just to cover my ass (/have never done this anywhere I have ever worked). I would find that incredibly subversive and disrespectful to receive an e-mail from a summer associate detailing a conversation I had with them with others CC'd in order to keep ME accountable. Have a little decency, and expect it from others. Don't throw people under the bus, but also just do your work and do it well and there won't be a problem (example - this person's friend ended up with an offer).

Or, you're just typical TLS'ers who over-examine, over-analyze, over-prepare, and tend to obsess over every minutia and detail in possibly every facet of life. Ah-ha, just remembered which forum I was visiting...

Disclaimer: not from legal job

I worked in an environment where certain people wanted to be kept in the loop on certain matters, and it would be beneficial to keep them in the loop on other matters. Because pretty much everything I was doing could have multimillion dollar repercussions, even when it wasn't necessary, I would CC the person responsible (ie whose head would roll in case of a fuckup

When I reached a position of actual responsibility I took blame for mistakes that were not my fault but were my responsibility, even in a case where the mistake was dye to a direct order from the CEO. If a matter was my responsibility, it was my responsibility, and I took the blame for all mistakes, whether mine or not. However, there's a difference between saying "my bad" and "I'm sorry it turned out badly. Here's what went wrong..." (Note: not shifting the Blake, just providing the details so a future fuckup can be prevented)

However, this was a business environment. I can't say if the same would be true in a law firm




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