What do you do when law students email you at work?

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: What do you do when law students email you at work?

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:34 am

MoonDreamer wrote:A good email would say something like

"Bob,

I am a recent law graduate looking for a job in commercial litigation and noticed the firm has this practice area. I noticed you practice in this area as well. Do you have any advice for someone who is trying to break into this area?

Any advice would be appreciated. And of course if you are aware of any open positions, I would greatly appreciate the tip

Thanks

The casual tone puts me at ease. And this guy doesn't sound desperate, which also helps.

I would delete an email like this immediately. It establishes no connection other than to say that you're a law graduate who wants to litigate and then you go straight into asking somebody to hook you up with an inside track to a job without even establishing the slightest bit of a relationship with that person.

Yikes. We'll have to agree to disagree on what makes a good networking email.

MoonDreamer
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:37 pm

Re: What do you do when law students email you at work?

Postby MoonDreamer » Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:15 am

FlightoftheEarls wrote:
MoonDreamer wrote:A good email would say something like

"Bob,

I am a recent law graduate looking for a job in commercial litigation and noticed the firm has this practice area. I noticed you practice in this area as well. Do you have any advice for someone who is trying to break into this area?

Any advice would be appreciated. And of course if you are aware of any open positions, I would greatly appreciate the tip

Thanks

The casual tone puts me at ease. And this guy doesn't sound desperate, which also helps.

I would delete an email like this immediately. It establishes no connection other than to say that you're a law graduate who wants to litigate and then you go straight into asking somebody to hook you up with an inside track to a job without even establishing the slightest bit of a relationship with that person.

Yikes. We'll have to agree to disagree on what makes a good networking email.


just so you know...I was being sarcastic with it.

jitsrenzo
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:48 am

Re: What do you do when law students email you at work?

Postby jitsrenzo » Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:48 am

SBL wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
SBL wrote:Just know it comes off poorly. Almost every attorney I know lols at and/or ignores emails from gunner 1Ls.


I've met with over 25 attorneys (pre-OCI) and every one of them has said they were impressed and when I asked for advice they said "keep doing what you're doing--showing interest early will put you ahead of most at OCI." A few (from v10 firms, mind you) have asked for my resume after the meeting.

I'd say around 5-10 attorneys have ignored my emails. Caveat: Most people I've emailed were alumni or I was referred to them by someone at a networking event.
I mean, YMMV, YOLO, pick your acronym. If you're having fun and getting results, then let your gunner freak flag fly by all means. I just don't respond well to that kind of attitude. An email from a 1L "just looking for information" feels disingenuous, whereas an email from a jobless 3L, if desperate, is at least honest and to the point.


Wow, this forum always says to go out and network, and when there's someone who actually DID network, that gets casually dismissed as being a "gunner freak." It's absurd. I don't have any parents, relatives, or parents' friends who work in Biglaw (and neither do a lot of people). The only way I was possibly going to find out about what people do in Biglaw, the difference between corporate v. litigation, what an "average" day looks like, where partners think associates go wrong, etc etc...was to actually TALK to people in Biglaw. I did something similar as the anon post, and it paid off huge dividends come OCI time. That's networking.

Sitting down with partners, having lunch with them, getting to pick their brain for an hour or two -- it's easy. All you have to do is ask. About 90% of the people I contacted ended up talking to me. And I didn't wait until OCI or 3L, when I'd obviously have an agenda. I just wanted to find out what they did. You have to build a relationship over time. No one wants to vouch for a stranger, so it's very unrealistic to expect that someone you've talked to once would be willing to go to bat for you a few weeks later.

A lot of people heading into OCI don't really know the things I just described, and have a vague idea of what a transactional lawyer does. A bunch just read the Vault guide or Chambers and Associates and spout the same few quotes about the firm. That's not gonna get you very far.

Out of literally dozens of partners, no one thought this was freaky, gunner-like, or insane -- a lot said it showed initiative. In fact, if you ever talk to b-school kids, they're never NOT networking, and would think it was completely absurd to go into an industry essentially blind and with no connections. If you interview with a bank/consulting firm/fund, you're EXPECTED to have spoken to people at the employer, and your failure to do so is a huge red flag. I guess all these partners and financial institutions and MBA students are wrong, and a TLS megaposter is right.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: What do you do when law students email you at work?

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:49 am

MoonDreamer wrote:
FlightoftheEarls wrote:
MoonDreamer wrote:A good email would say something like

"Bob,

I am a recent law graduate looking for a job in commercial litigation and noticed the firm has this practice area. I noticed you practice in this area as well. Do you have any advice for someone who is trying to break into this area?

Any advice would be appreciated. And of course if you are aware of any open positions, I would greatly appreciate the tip

Thanks

The casual tone puts me at ease. And this guy doesn't sound desperate, which also helps.

I would delete an email like this immediately. It establishes no connection other than to say that you're a law graduate who wants to litigate and then you go straight into asking somebody to hook you up with an inside track to a job without even establishing the slightest bit of a relationship with that person.

Yikes. We'll have to agree to disagree on what makes a good networking email.


just so you know...I was being sarcastic with it.

This thread just keeps getting more confusing.

MoonDreamer
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Re: What do you do when law students email you at work?

Postby MoonDreamer » Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:09 am

FlightoftheEarls wrote:
MoonDreamer wrote:
FlightoftheEarls wrote:
MoonDreamer wrote:A good email would say something like

"Bob,

I am a recent law graduate looking for a job in commercial litigation and noticed the firm has this practice area. I noticed you practice in this area as well. Do you have any advice for someone who is trying to break into this area?

Any advice would be appreciated. And of course if you are aware of any open positions, I would greatly appreciate the tip

Thanks

The casual tone puts me at ease. And this guy doesn't sound desperate, which also helps.

I would delete an email like this immediately. It establishes no connection other than to say that you're a law graduate who wants to litigate and then you go straight into asking somebody to hook you up with an inside track to a job without even establishing the slightest bit of a relationship with that person.

Yikes. We'll have to agree to disagree on what makes a good networking email.


just so you know...I was being sarcastic with it.

This thread just keeps getting more confusing.


That's your problem.

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Samara
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Re: What do you do when law students email you at work?

Postby Samara » Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:32 am

FlightoftheEarls wrote:This OP just keeps getting douchier.

FTFY

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IAFG
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Re: What do you do when law students email you at work?

Postby IAFG » Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:17 am

jitsrenzo wrote:
Wow, this forum always says to go out and network, and when there's someone who actually DID network, that gets casually dismissed as being a "gunner freak." It's absurd. I don't have any parents, relatives, or parents' friends who work in Biglaw (and neither do a lot of people). The only way I was possibly going to find out about what people do in Biglaw, the difference between corporate v. litigation, what an "average" day looks like, where partners think associates go wrong, etc etc...was to actually TALK to people in Biglaw. I did something similar as the anon post, and it paid off huge dividends come OCI time. That's networking.

Sitting down with partners, having lunch with them, getting to pick their brain for an hour or two -- it's easy. All you have to do is ask. About 90% of the people I contacted ended up talking to me. And I didn't wait until OCI or 3L, when I'd obviously have an agenda. I just wanted to find out what they did. You have to build a relationship over time. No one wants to vouch for a stranger, so it's very unrealistic to expect that someone you've talked to once would be willing to go to bat for you a few weeks later.

A lot of people heading into OCI don't really know the things I just described, and have a vague idea of what a transactional lawyer does. A bunch just read the Vault guide or Chambers and Associates and spout the same few quotes about the firm. That's not gonna get you very far.

Out of literally dozens of partners, no one thought this was freaky, gunner-like, or insane -- a lot said it showed initiative. In fact, if you ever talk to b-school kids, they're never NOT networking, and would think it was completely absurd to go into an industry essentially blind and with no connections. If you interview with a bank/consulting firm/fund, you're EXPECTED to have spoken to people at the employer, and your failure to do so is a huge red flag. I guess all these partners and financial institutions and MBA students are wrong, and a TLS megaposter is right.

To be fair, this forum really doesn't push networking. You're describing exactly what I tell people to do during their 1L summer: talk to a LOT of attorneys to get a better idea of what practicing law really looks like. But most people don't want to do that, and end up fine (because they're at top law schools) so it's not really common advice.

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romothesavior
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Re: What do you do when law students email you at work?

Postby romothesavior » Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:50 am

Anonymous User wrote:I've met with over 25 attorneys (pre-OCI) and every one of them has said they were impressed and when I asked for advice they said "keep doing what you're doing--showing interest early will put you ahead of most at OCI." A few (from v10 firms, mind you) have asked for my resume after the meeting.

I'd say around 5-10 attorneys have ignored my emails. Caveat: Most people I've emailed were alumni or I was referred to them by someone at a networking event.

This was my experience as well. I tried to talk to 1-2 people at every firm I did OCI with, and the feedback was generally very positive. I know multiple people forwarded my name on to HR (they said so in the interview) and one firm had a big "Y" on my resume, and they asked me for a callback on the spot.

Trying to make contacts within individual firms is probably the number one thing people can do during their 1L summer going into OCI.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: What do you do when law students email you at work?

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:05 pm

MoonDreamer wrote:
FlightoftheEarls wrote:
MoonDreamer wrote:
FlightoftheEarls wrote:I would delete an email like this immediately. It establishes no connection other than to say that you're a law graduate who wants to litigate and then you go straight into asking somebody to hook you up with an inside track to a job without even establishing the slightest bit of a relationship with that person.

Yikes. We'll have to agree to disagree on what makes a good networking email.


just so you know...I was being sarcastic with it.

This thread just keeps getting more confusing.


That's your problem.

Your command of sarcasm is exceeded only by your exceptional social competence.

MoonDreamer
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:37 pm

Re: What do you do when law students email you at work?

Postby MoonDreamer » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:09 pm

just so you know...I was being sarcastic with it.[/quote]
This thread just keeps getting more confusing.[/quote]

That's your problem.[/quote]
Your command of sarcasm is exceeded only by your exceptional social competence.[/quote]

Cool.

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iLaw
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Re: What do you do when law students email you at work?

Postby iLaw » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:32 pm

I emailed a couple of alums and ended up having lunch with them. They were quick to say they were once in my situation and were more than happy to help (and they did). In both cases I received a callback from their firm. Looking ahead to the day when I can pass it forward.

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stuckinthemiddle
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Re: What do you do when law students email you at work?

Postby stuckinthemiddle » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:42 pm

IAFG wrote:
MoonDreamer wrote:
No just needs to convey some sort of non-desperation. I used to write those same formal and deferential emails. Now that I'm reading them, this is how I see it.

Through cunt-colored glasses?


180.

Another
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Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:16 pm

.

Postby Another » Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:59 pm

.
Last edited by Another on Fri Nov 29, 2013 6:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

MoonDreamer
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Re: What do you do when law students email you at work?

Postby MoonDreamer » Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:26 pm

hopkins23 wrote:
MoonDreamer wrote:
FlightoftheEarls wrote:
MoonDreamer wrote:A good email would say something like

"Bob,

I am a recent law graduate looking for a job in commercial litigation and noticed the firm has this practice area. I noticed you practice in this area as well. Do you have any advice for someone who is trying to break into this area?

Any advice would be appreciated. And of course if you are aware of any open positions, I would greatly appreciate the tip

Thanks

The casual tone puts me at ease. And this guy doesn't sound desperate, which also helps.

I would delete an email like this immediately. It establishes no connection other than to say that you're a law graduate who wants to litigate and then you go straight into asking somebody to hook you up with an inside track to a job without even establishing the slightest bit of a relationship with that person.

Yikes. We'll have to agree to disagree on what makes a good networking email.


just so you know...I was being sarcastic with it.


Like hell you were "being sarcastic with it." That was an actual good faith attempt by you to cobble together some email solicitation that had a "casual tone."

I thought you were a jerk at first; now I think you're a disingenuous jerk.

MoonDreamer wrote:That's your problem.


I wasn't sure if you could make me think you were more of a jerk, but this statement did a pretty good job of that.


womp womp.

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laxbrah420
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Re: What do you do when law students email you at work?

Postby laxbrah420 » Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:04 pm

Chill dudes.
Could someone tell me what to talk about during coffee?

MoonDreamer
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Re: What do you do when law students email you at work?

Postby MoonDreamer » Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:52 pm

laxbrah420 wrote:Chill dudes.
Could someone tell me what to talk about during coffee?


how you want to work at their firm and how you can get in

RodneyRuxin
Posts: 455
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Re: What do you do when law students email you at work?

Postby RodneyRuxin » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:03 am

MoonDreamer wrote:
laxbrah420 wrote:Chill dudes.
Could someone tell me what to talk about during coffee?


how you want to work at their firm and how you can get in


no.

Another
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Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:16 pm

.

Postby Another » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:19 am

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Last edited by Another on Fri Nov 29, 2013 5:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

MoonDreamer
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Re: What do you do when law students email you at work?

Postby MoonDreamer » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:21 am

hopkins23 wrote:
MoonDreamer wrote:
laxbrah420 wrote:Chill dudes.
Could someone tell me what to talk about during coffee?


how you want to work at their firm and how you can get in


I'm just thankful that idiots of your magnitude are not too common on TLS.

I PMed you calling you out specifically about how shitty this advice was. And you responded:

MoonDreamer wrote:if he doesn't get the sarcasm, he's not gonna get the job anyway.


Yeah, real dick move, asshole.

---

Anyway, laxbrah, you should do the following:

How did the coffee appointment come up? How well do you know this person, if at all? Above all, use your social instincts and intelligence to see how you should approach your coffee conversation. Don't throw out your social instincts out the window based on what we tell you. Conversations are dynamic things, so don't adhere to any of these tips necessarily as absolutes. With that in mind, here are a few considerations.

I would just generally focus on questions that give them an opportunity to talk about themselves. People generally love talking about their own paths and giving insight from their own lives. Be attentive, ask good insightful questions that show you've been listening. If you don't quite understand something he just said, ask for clarification, "Oh, you mentioned M&A. I've always heard so much about it, and I think I'd be interested; what is it exactly?" Don't jump around so much, but just ask nicely placed and timely quesitons.


I wouldn't be so upfront about wanting a job. Asking, "can I get a job with your firm?" or "Hey, can you get me a job?" are way too upfront.

Be a little more direct and sneaky about it. "Hey, what you do and what your firm does sound really interesting and I've love to learn more and work in that field, do you know of any opportunities that I can explore?" Or "Hey, that sounds like a great firm you're working with and it has lots of great work; I would love to apply and I was wondering if you could pass along my resume to your recruiter." (that's as direct as I'd get). If they tell you to just apply via online at their regular site, don't be bummed; just accept it and do it. You can mention the guy's name in a cover letter if you want.

Also, these coffee things don't always bear fruit, but you gotta just sow your seeds as much as possible so that a few of them can bear fruit. Don't be discouraged if the guy doesn't totally click with you or if he doesn't gladly hand your resume to the recruiter.

I would also look at this thread, which is useful for many situations like yours imo:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 23&t=87297


tool.

Throttle
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Re: What do you do when law students email you at work?

Postby Throttle » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:28 am

MoonDreamer wrote:
laxbrah420 wrote:Chill dudes.
Could someone tell me what to talk about during coffee?


how you want to work at their firm and how you can get in


hahahahaaha lmfao.

JusticeJackson
Posts: 454
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Re: What do you do when law students email you at work?

Postby JusticeJackson » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:31 am

.
Last edited by JusticeJackson on Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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laxbrah420
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Re: What do you do when law students email you at work?

Postby laxbrah420 » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:41 am

Appreciate it Hopkins




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