Asking you if you received an offer

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Asking you if you received an offer

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:20 pm

People always talk about the importance of receiving an offer even if you know you don't want to work for your summer firm and you will be looking for jobs during 3L. I was curious as to whether this is because: 1) When you interview during 3L, firms universally ask if you did receive a summer offer and will not accept you if you didn't get an offer, 2) firms don't always ask, but some do, and the ones that do won't accept you if you didn't get an offer, 3) firms don't generally ask, but you have a much better shot if you mention you received an offer from your summer firm, or 4) it's just something good to have for negotiation purposes. I think I'm going to get an offer, but to speak frankly I hate my current firm and know I would have been better off taking a different offer, plus geographically speaking I know I want to work in a different city. I just want to know what the deal generally is and if people just stress the importance of this as a means of hedging your bets.

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Samara
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Re: Asking you if you received an offer

Postby Samara » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:27 pm

Might have something to do with 3L hiring being practically non-existent.

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Re: Asking you if you received an offer

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:33 pm

Samara wrote:Might have something to do with 3L hiring being practically non-existent.


OP here:

Sure, that's fair enough, but then why do people go to the trouble of securing a cold offer? I'm guessing there must be a reason for this other than "you need a job, and 3Ls hardly ever get hired."

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DildaMan
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Re: Asking you if you received an offer

Postby DildaMan » Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Samara wrote:Might have something to do with 3L hiring being practically non-existent.


OP here:

Sure, that's fair enough, but then why do people go to the trouble of securing a cold offer? I'm guessing there must be a reason for this other than "you need a job, and 3Ls hardly ever get hired."


I've heard that they ask for "offers extended" because it functions as quality control. Another firm has already expended time and resources because they find you a desirable candidate. If they extend you an offer, it's almost as if they're vouching for you.

FWIW, I heard this from a senior associate at another firm.

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Re: Asking you if you received an offer

Postby bk1 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Samara wrote:Might have something to do with 3L hiring being practically non-existent.


OP here:

Sure, that's fair enough, but then why do people go to the trouble of securing a cold offer? I'm guessing there must be a reason for this other than "you need a job, and 3Ls hardly ever get hired."

Right or not, large law firms look at people with no offers as damaged goods. They assume that something is wrong with them and that if another large law firm spent 10 weeks with them and doesn't want them then there's something wrong them and should not be hired. So if you want to do 3L OCI, your odds will be much higher if you have an offer.

Going further than that, even for people with offers the pickings at 3L OCI are slim. Even if you have an offer, you can't guarantee you'll get another one. Assuming you want to work at a large law firm, you best make sure you have an offer at your current firm in case you strike out of 3L OCI. Because the odds are that the only law firm you will have an offer from is the one you summered at.

The final reason is that it is much easier to lateral firms than it is to trade up at OCI or to jump into biglaw after getting no offered. If you truly hate your firm but still want to work in biglaw, the most likely path for you will be to start working at your firm after graduation and lateral once you have the opportunity.

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Re: Asking you if you received an offer

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:53 pm

OP here:

Thanks for the advice, and these are all valid reasons for trying one's best to secure a summer offer. That being said, what I'm getting at is just how common is it for the 3L interviewer to outright ask: "So, we get that you didn't like your summer firm. Did they give you an offer?" Is it an industry-wide practice to ask, or is it just something to be aware of? I'd especially like to hear from people who actually did 3L FIP or 3L interviews in general.

bk1 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Samara wrote:Might have something to do with 3L hiring being practically non-existent.


OP here:

Sure, that's fair enough, but then why do people go to the trouble of securing a cold offer? I'm guessing there must be a reason for this other than "you need a job, and 3Ls hardly ever get hired."

Right or not, large law firms look at people with no offers as damaged goods. They assume that something is wrong with them and that if another large law firm spent 10 weeks with them and doesn't want them then there's something wrong them and should not be hired. So if you want to do 3L OCI, your odds will be much higher if you have an offer.

Going further than that, even for people with offers the pickings at 3L OCI are slim. Even if you have an offer, you can't guarantee you'll get another one. Assuming you want to work at a large law firm, you best make sure you have an offer at your current firm in case you strike out of 3L OCI. Because the odds are that the only law firm you will have an offer from is the one you summered at.

The final reason is that it is much easier to lateral firms than it is to trade up at OCI or to jump into biglaw after getting no offered. If you truly hate your firm but still want to work in biglaw, the most likely path for you will be to start working at your firm after graduation and lateral once you have the opportunity.

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Re: Asking you if you received an offer

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here:

Thanks for the advice, and these are all valid reasons for trying one's best to secure a summer offer. That being said, what I'm getting at is just how common is it for the 3L interviewer to outright ask: "So, we get that you didn't like your summer firm. Did they give you an offer?" Is it an industry-wide practice to ask, or is it just something to be aware of? I'd especially like to hear from people who actually did 3L FIP or 3L interviews in general.

I can't answer your question, but I hope you wouldn't go into an interview and say things that would make it possible for interviewers to say "we get that you didn't like your summer firm."

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Re: Asking you if you received an offer

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:59 pm

OP here:

No, I am going to be overall positive about my summer firm and my experience there, and stick to mentioning my geographic preferences and some practice area benefits of moving to the new firm. I just didn't take the time to phrase the hypothetical into what would be a more likely scenario. Thank you for the concern though.

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here:

Thanks for the advice, and these are all valid reasons for trying one's best to secure a summer offer. That being said, what I'm getting at is just how common is it for the 3L interviewer to outright ask: "So, we get that you didn't like your summer firm. Did they give you an offer?" Is it an industry-wide practice to ask, or is it just something to be aware of? I'd especially like to hear from people who actually did 3L FIP or 3L interviews in general.

I can't answer your question, but I hope you wouldn't go into an interview and say things that would make it possible for interviewers to say "we get that you didn't like your summer firm."

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Re: Asking you if you received an offer

Postby Bronte » Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:01 pm

To directly answer your question OP, as I understand it the offer will and should come out one way or another if you're seeking to change firms after your 2L SA. If you are approaching firms outside of 3L OCI, you will want to lead with the fact that you got an offer or they will ignore you. During 3L OCI, firms will ask if you got an offer, and if they don't you should tell them.

This is how I understand it, but I've never done it myself. But I do know that, one way or another, the difference between having an offer and not having an offer when entering the 3L hiring market is night and day. As in, you can transfer relatively easily if you have an offer and it's almost impossible to get big law as a 3L if you don't.

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Re: Asking you if you received an offer

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:01 pm

Cool. Just checking. :D Sorry I can't help with your question.

Anonymous User wrote:OP here:

No, I am going to be overall positive about my summer firm and my experience there, and stick to mentioning my geographic preferences and some practice area benefits of moving to the new firm. I just didn't take the time to phrase the hypothetical into what would be a more likely scenario. Thank you for the concern though.

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here:

Thanks for the advice, and these are all valid reasons for trying one's best to secure a summer offer. That being said, what I'm getting at is just how common is it for the 3L interviewer to outright ask: "So, we get that you didn't like your summer firm. Did they give you an offer?" Is it an industry-wide practice to ask, or is it just something to be aware of? I'd especially like to hear from people who actually did 3L FIP or 3L interviews in general.

I can't answer your question, but I hope you wouldn't go into an interview and say things that would make it possible for interviewers to say "we get that you didn't like your summer firm."

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Re: Asking you if you received an offer

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:13 pm

I was no offered as a 1L. Early on it really didn't matter because they didn't make their decision until mid-September. Even so, after September, only one firm (a Big 4 accounting firm) asked if I received an offer. The guy was a d*ck and also asked my LSAT score and class rank. He asked this, despite the fact, that I worked at a Big 4 competitor prior to law school. I just said I took myself out of consideration, which probably wasn't too believable.

If you are no offered, and they ask why you are not returning to XYZ (WHICH i was also asked by another firm in the same city) you don't want to practice trademark law or want to work for a smaller/bigger firm. Or if it's in a different city, say you want to work in XYZ and that's why you applied to this firm. If they are specific, did you receive an offer. You can be honest and state the reason. It turns out that at my firm none of the 1L's were asked to return, so in that sense, it didn't seem like I was dead-weight. But I didn't find this out until January because when I heard the VM that I was no-offered, I made the mistake of not caring and finding out the details. Perhaps this could of helped at the Big 4 firm. Nonetheless, if you are no offered and they ask, tell them, but say you spoke with XYZ at the firm and he spoke highly of you and will give you a good recommendation. Have 1-3 attorneys on your side.

During my 1L year, I met this guy who was no offered and he was an attorney at one of the best law firms in the city. His boss mentioned that he didn't receive in offer and was like "I don't know why, we love him here." So take that for what it's worth. People who are no offered can bounce back. Certainly, however, you would want that offer so you don't look like dead weight.

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Re: Asking you if you received an offer

Postby Samara » Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:43 pm

^ Your situation is completely different.

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Re: Asking you if you received an offer

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:24 pm

Samara wrote:^ Your situation is completely different.


How so? Being no offered is being no offered. A lot of places didn't even ask.

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Re: Asking you if you received an offer

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Samara wrote:^ Your situation is completely different.


How so? Being no offered is being no offered. A lot of places didn't even ask.

Because the vast majority of people don't do 1L SAs, and of those who do, not all will go back to those firms (out of choice - will get something else through 2L OCI). What you did 1L doesn't really matter for 3L OCI, whereas what you did 2L summer does. It's just not the same thing.

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Re: Asking you if you received an offer

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:59 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Samara wrote:^ Your situation is completely different.


How so? Being no offered is being no offered. A lot of places didn't even ask.

Because the vast majority of people don't do 1L SAs, and of those who do, not all will go back to those firms (out of choice - will get something else through 2L OCI). What you did 1L doesn't really matter for 3L OCI, whereas what you did 2L summer does. It's just not the same thing.


My situation is not completely different. They could have invited the 1L's back as they have in the past. They chose not to. If people didn't care what I did, they wouldn't of asked about what I did. And if I'm OP, I wouldn't care too much about being no offered and interviewing at other firms. For one, there's hardly any 3L jobs in the first place. Also, it's all about how you spin it which I talked about earlier.

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Re: Asking you if you received an offer

Postby Samara » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:00 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Samara wrote:^ Your situation is completely different.


How so? Being no offered is being no offered. A lot of places didn't even ask.

Because the vast majority of people don't do 1L SAs, and of those who do, not all will go back to those firms (out of choice - will get something else through 2L OCI). What you did 1L doesn't really matter for 3L OCI, whereas what you did 2L summer does. It's just not the same thing.

This. And what you did 1L summer doesn't matter much for 2L OCI either.

It's pretty common to not get an offer from a 1L SA. I wouldn't call what happened to you a no-offer because there was no expectation of an offer. Thus, 2L OCI employers don't care if you didn't get an offer, which is pretty much the opposite of the discussion in this thread.

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Re: Asking you if you received an offer

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:07 pm

Samara wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Samara wrote:^ Your situation is completely different.


How so? Being no offered is being no offered. A lot of places didn't even ask.

Because the vast majority of people don't do 1L SAs, and of those who do, not all will go back to those firms (out of choice - will get something else through 2L OCI). What you did 1L doesn't really matter for 3L OCI, whereas what you did 2L summer does. It's just not the same thing.

This. And what you did 1L summer doesn't matter much for 2L OCI either.

It's pretty common to not get an offer from a 1L SA. I wouldn't call what happened to you a no-offer because there was no expectation of an offer. Thus, 2L OCI employers don't care if you didn't get an offer, which is pretty much the opposite of the discussion in this thread.


How would you know what the expectation was? There WAS an expectation of an offer. If 2L OCI employers don't care, I'm sure as he11 wondering why I was asked by an employer if I received an offer.

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Re: Asking you if you received an offer

Postby Samara » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:How would you know what the expectation was? There WAS an expectation of an offer. If 2L OCI employers don't care, I'm sure as he11 wondering why I was asked by an employer if I received an offer.

You can type hell on here, dooder. Apparently, you've never been to the lounge.

1) You said no one received an offer. Unless you all were terrible at your jobs, it sounds like they didn't plan to make offers.
2) It is common to not receive an offer after a 1L SA.
3) Why wouldn't an employer ask? That doesn't mean they cared, much less expected you to have an offer. Maybe the employer was trying to get a feel for whether you truly were interested in their firm. Who knows? The point is that 3L hiring is very different from 2L hiring, so your anecdote doesn't apply.

LOL, almost forgot, you were apparently asked by an accounting firm if you got an offer, which makes it even less relevant. Maybe he didn't know about the typical expectations of legal hiring. Plus, accounting firms are suspicious of people who look like they should have good law firm options available, so they would likely ask a lot of questions to see if you were truly interested.

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Re: Asking you if you received an offer

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:17 pm

Samara wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:How would you know what the expectation was? There WAS an expectation of an offer. If 2L OCI employers don't care, I'm sure as he11 wondering why I was asked by an employer if I received an offer.

You can type hell on here, dooder. Apparently, you've never been to the lounge.

1) You said no one received an offer. Unless you all were terrible at your jobs, it sounds like they didn't plan to make offers.
2) It is common to not receive an offer after a 1L SA.
3) Why wouldn't an employer ask? That doesn't mean they cared, much less expected you to have an offer. Maybe the employer was trying to get a feel for whether you truly were interested in their firm. Who knows? The point is that 3L hiring is very different from 2L hiring, so your anecdote doesn't apply.


They give offers to 1L's. They had one the previous year and he returned. You can try to brush my "anecdote" out the door, but it sure as hell does apply.

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Re: Asking you if you received an offer

Postby Bronte » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:How would you know what the expectation was? There WAS an expectation of an offer. If 2L OCI employers don't care, I'm sure as he11 wondering why I was asked by an employer if I received an offer.


It doesn't matter what your expectation was. What matters is that in the industry it's not expected that almost all 1L SAs get offers. You're right, it can hurt you not to get an offer at your 1L SA. Some firms will ask about, some won't. But it's nothing compared to the expectation that 2L SAs will get an offer. Not getting an offer at your 2L SA makes it extremely, almost prohibitively difficult to get big law. Not getting an offer after 1L doesn't even get close to shutting you out of big law in that way.

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Re: Asking you if you received an offer

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:24 pm

OP here:

I think what Samara is trying to say, Anon, is that there is definitely an industry-wide expectation in biglaw that you should get an offer from your 2L position, unless there is something wrong with you. This is obviously not always true (sometimes there is just a string of no-offers because of financial reasons, sometimes there is a genuine cultural mismatch, etc), but that is the stereotype. Conversely, no matter if your 1L position has traditionally given out offers or not, biglaw employers just won't naturally assume that you should get an offer. As for why one of your interviewers asked, I can only imagine that: a) I think you mentioned that he was in accounting, and as such does not follow the biglaw standard, or b) he just personally wanted to know.

Anonymous User wrote:
Samara wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:How would you know what the expectation was? There WAS an expectation of an offer. If 2L OCI employers don't care, I'm sure as he11 wondering why I was asked by an employer if I received an offer.

You can type hell on here, dooder. Apparently, you've never been to the lounge.

1) You said no one received an offer. Unless you all were terrible at your jobs, it sounds like they didn't plan to make offers.
2) It is common to not receive an offer after a 1L SA.
3) Why wouldn't an employer ask? That doesn't mean they cared, much less expected you to have an offer. Maybe the employer was trying to get a feel for whether you truly were interested in their firm. Who knows? The point is that 3L hiring is very different from 2L hiring, so your anecdote doesn't apply.


They give offers to 1L's. They had one the previous year and he returned. You can try to brush my "anecdote" out the door, but it sure as hell does apply.

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Re: Asking you if you received an offer

Postby rad lulz » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:43 pm

You can't compare getting no offered as a 1L SA to getting no offered as a 2L SA

The people above are right - the expectations are different

Also getting asked if you got an offer from your summer firm during 3L hiring is pretty common

And the burden is on your to provide evidence or a story to overcome it




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