Penn OCI

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OutCold
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby OutCold » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:08 pm

Also, while it's on my mind, you absolutely can get good information from summers. About ten minutes before my interview with Dechert, I was told by a 1LSA in our class that a number of their corporate partners travel to NY a few days a week. I used that point through all of my Dechert interviews to tell them how appealing it was to be able to live in Philly but still work on high-level, NY-style corporate matters. Got an offer.

Skump
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Skump » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:08 pm

There's no question that making the effort to network has value in and of itself. But what I remain incredulous about is why you would choose to deliberately target summer associates for that purpose. They have the least valuable perspective to offer in almost every respect, and are the least likely to be known of personally by whomever you will be interviewing with.

It creates a certain immediate rapport with an interviewer if you can weave in a conversation you've had with someone they're already familiar/friends with. It's like a point of human contact. Needless to say, that's most likely to be an attorney, rather than a summer. Being able to do that definitely loosened up a couple of my interviewers (e.g., "Oh Bob, yeah, great guy. Right, he had that case/deal going with...").

In the odd scenario in which it was chatting up summers or nothing, yeah, it'd be better to speak to summers than no one-but that isn't the only option on the table.

Hell, you can do both. Go grab some annecdotes about the summer program from a summer and speak to an associate. Yes, that much I will concede: There's no reason, time permitting, not to chat up summers and associates alike.
Last edited by Skump on Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PennBull
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby PennBull » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:10 pm

OutCold wrote:Literally, it is just about showing that you cared enough about this firm to actually speak to someone at the firm.


This right here, folks

Skump you're totally right that if you can glean some good shit about a particular practice group it can look pretty good to an interviewer. But 90% of the benefit is just showing you gave a flying fuck to talk to people.

Can we go back to wondering why CPP isn't letting people trade interviews haha

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PennBull
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby PennBull » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:12 pm

Bro nobody said one should only talk to summers or that they were even preferable, so you can keep nuking strawmen all you want but it's getting you nowhere

Skump
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Skump » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:17 pm

Eh, a couple of people said it "made no difference who you speak to." That's the point I was disputing.

If you want to talk to associates and summers alike, well, network away...

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Anyone have any ida about GPA to percentile conversions? The pie charts on the excel spreadsheet kind of flew over my head because I didn't know what top 10 or 15% were


The pie charts represent individual grades, not student averages or percentiles. So if "A+" occupies 10% of the chart, all that means is that 10% of the grades of offered students were A+'s, not that 10% of offered students had an A+ average.

Penn doesn't allow us to put any of our own GPA or class rank guesstimations on our resumes, btw. Since we don't know actual percentiles there's no real way to calculate them anyway.

--Brady



responding to this, where would a 3.7 be? top 10%? top 5%

I saw the whole UVA shitshow with the clerkship/grades thing and was wondering if there were more mathematically gifted classmates who could help me out.

run26.2
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby run26.2 » Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:59 pm

The rankings don't work that way. I.e., you can't simply figure out your gpa and compare it to others and know your class rank.

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OutCold
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby OutCold » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:

responding to this, where would a 3.7 be? top 10%? top 5%

I saw the whole UVA shitshow with the clerkship/grades thing and was wondering if there were more mathematically gifted classmates who could help me out.

Just based on all of the data points I've seen over the years, I'd say between top 15-20%, but that's just pure estimation.

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:26 pm

OutCold wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:

responding to this, where would a 3.7 be? top 10%? top 5%

I saw the whole UVA shitshow with the clerkship/grades thing and was wondering if there were more mathematically gifted classmates who could help me out.

Just based on all of the data points I've seen over the years, I'd say between top 15-20%, but that's just pure estimation.


based on how the bell curve works, this would definitely be top 10% or higher

others chime in, i haven't done statistics since college

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
OutCold wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:

responding to this, where would a 3.7 be? top 10%? top 5%

I saw the whole UVA shitshow with the clerkship/grades thing and was wondering if there were more mathematically gifted classmates who could help me out.

Just based on all of the data points I've seen over the years, I'd say between top 15-20%, but that's just pure estimation.


based on how the bell curve works, this would definitely be top 10% or higher

others chime in, i haven't done statistics since college




http://abovethelaw.com/2014/06/oops-top ... licants/2/

isn't it just subtract 1 from UVA's median since our's is 3.3?

so....3.7 = top 5%?

:) no idea honestly

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
OutCold wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:

responding to this, where would a 3.7 be? top 10%? top 5%

I saw the whole UVA shitshow with the clerkship/grades thing and was wondering if there were more mathematically gifted classmates who could help me out.

Just based on all of the data points I've seen over the years, I'd say between top 15-20%, but that's just pure estimation.


based on how the bell curve works, this would definitely be top 10% or higher

others chime in, i haven't done statistics since college




http://abovethelaw.com/2014/06/oops-top ... licants/2/

isn't it just subtract 1 from UVA's median since our's is 3.3?

so....3.7 = top 5%?

:) no idea honestly


We don't know what our median is. There really is no way to calculate Penn GPA beyond wild guesswork. If it makes you feel confident, might as well believe you are top 5%.

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:47 pm

it's pretty clear that our median is around a 3.3

based on 1l curve, the middle third of our class gets a B+ (B+ = 3.3) so makes sense that our median is around 3.3

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:it's pretty clear that our median is around a 3.3

based on 1l curve, the middle third of our class gets a B+ (B+ = 3.3) so makes sense that our median is around 3.3


Unless I'm completely blanking on third grade math, which I might be, that's not how medians work. And you're forgetting the separate elective curves.

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:12 pm

One elective class is on the 1l curve anyways so its just the one other class. Can someone just gather data points and calculate?

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:10 am

Better question is who gives a shit what your GPA/rank is?? The pie charts don't reference GPA/rank. Employers don't know your GPA/rank. All they see is the same grades you do.

For the record, the MEAN of the mandatory 1L curve classes is 3.32, not including the 5% discretionary leeway profs are given. The un-curved elective certainly skews this mean up.
But when considering the median, people with As tend to be the ones with most of the As, and same goes for bad grades. This will drag the median down. How much-no one knows. Probably somewhere between 3.2-3.3.

But it really, really, doesn't matter unless a superior ranking makes you feel good about yourself

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:11 am

Anonymous User wrote:Better question is who gives a shit what your GPA/rank is?? The pie charts don't reference GPA/rank. Employers don't know your GPA/rank. All they see is the same grades you do.

For the record, the MEAN of the mandatory 1L curve classes is 3.32, not including the 5% discretionary leeway profs are given. The un-curved elective certainly skews this mean up.
But when considering the median, people with As tend to be the ones with most of the As, and same goes for bad grades. This will drag the median down. How much-no one knows. Probably somewhere between 3.2-3.3.

But it really, really, doesn't matter unless a superior ranking makes you feel good about yourself


All this. And when you factor in the wild card of discretionary A+'s and C's, the voodoo guesswork becomes even more pointless. Employers won't have any more of a clue than we do.

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:52 am

I'm not so sure. In the V15 OCI recruiter thread, the recruiter said that his firm calculates GPAs for everyone and has strict grade cut-offs, whether or not the school ranks/calculates GPA. Quinn also is said to have a strict class ranking cut-off, which I presume is not based on a recruiting manager's eyeballing it.

It honestly would take like an hour for some office assistant to plug every interviewee's grades into a standardized GPA calculator. With the kind of bulk interviewing many of these firms are doing, I can't imagine they see a school that doesn't calculate GPAs and throw their hands up in the air and accept that. They have to have a way to objectively compare Student 12 to Students 4, 9, 17, and 23 without asking the associate interviewer to try to decipher the difference between 2 As, 1 A-, 3 B+'s and a B vs. 5 A-s, a B+, and a B- 30 times.

Not ranking helps more for school vs. school than student vs. student. Employers can't come to Penn and say "we're only taking students in the top 15%". They have no idea. All they know is who the best candidates they interviewed were. But it would still be relevant to know if you're top 10%, etc. The strict cut-off doesn't matter so much, but knowing how many students have better grades would be useful information. As an example, if you know Wachtell only hands out 6-7 Penn callbacks per year, and you're not in the top 10%, you're probably in pretty bad shape.

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Nelson
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Nelson » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:55 am

Your grades are your grades. There's nothing you can do about them at this point. And all of the ranking/GPA obsession obscures that fact that most people know roughly where they are and that's enough to guide you to what firms are in your range.

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:10 am

Nelson wrote:Your grades are your grades. There's nothing you can do about them at this point. And all of the ranking/GPA obsession obscures that fact that most people know roughly where they are and that's enough to guide you to what firms are in your range.


That's definitely true. I think it's most difficult to assess as you approach the top of the curve, which is naturally filled with the type of people who are going to hand-wring above and beyond what is reasonable anyway.

But it's a legitimate question. Is a 3.7 top 10%? Higher, lower? Is that in range for firms like the DC elites/Wachtell/Cravath? I don't think anyone really knows.

My best guess is that Penn's curve is fairly similar to Virginia's, with median lower and the top of the curve a bit higher. Top 10% between 3.70 and 3.75 sounds about right to me.

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:38 am

If anything, I would assume our curve was more forgiving than UVA since our mean is a 3.2-3.3 and theirs a 3.4.

Wouldn't that lower the thresholds for top 10% and whatever? I know that your grades are your grades and everything, but some of us actually care about the distinction of grades.

Also, I'm guessing we (the students) are the only ones who dont know our grades and rankings; the school obviously knows, otherwise it would be impossible to grade onto law review. Also, from my discussion with people who worked at V5 firms, they absolutely have a cutoff and have a general conversion in their heads for bullshit schools like ours who say they don't rank. See eg UVA "we dont rank" what a clusterfuck that was

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Nelson
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Nelson » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:42 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Nelson wrote:Your grades are your grades. There's nothing you can do about them at this point. And all of the ranking/GPA obsession obscures that fact that most people know roughly where they are and that's enough to guide you to what firms are in your range.


That's definitely true. I think it's most difficult to assess as you approach the top of the curve, which is naturally filled with the type of people who are going to hand-wring above and beyond what is reasonable anyway.

But it's a legitimate question. Is a 3.7 top 10%? Higher, lower? Is that in range for firms like the DC elites/Wachtell/Cravath? I don't think anyone really knows.

My best guess is that Penn's curve is fairly similar to Virginia's, with median lower and the top of the curve a bit higher. Top 10% between 3.70 and 3.75 sounds about right to me.

You can figure out from the pie charts whether you're competitive. It really doesn't matter what percentile you are for firms, there's no firm that is looking at grades with that much granularity. The only thing that those variations in top tier grades matter for is clerkships and if you have the grades for them, there are people on the faculty who can tell you exactly where you stand.

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:52 am

Nelson wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Nelson wrote:Your grades are your grades. There's nothing you can do about them at this point. And all of the ranking/GPA obsession obscures that fact that most people know roughly where they are and that's enough to guide you to what firms are in your range.


That's definitely true. I think it's most difficult to assess as you approach the top of the curve, which is naturally filled with the type of people who are going to hand-wring above and beyond what is reasonable anyway.

But it's a legitimate question. Is a 3.7 top 10%? Higher, lower? Is that in range for firms like the DC elites/Wachtell/Cravath? I don't think anyone really knows.

My best guess is that Penn's curve is fairly similar to Virginia's, with median lower and the top of the curve a bit higher. Top 10% between 3.70 and 3.75 sounds about right to me.

You can figure out from the pie charts whether you're competitive. It really doesn't matter what percentile you are for firms, there's no firm that is looking at grades with that much granularity. The only thing that those variations in top tier grades matter for is clerkships and if you have the grades for them, there are people on the faculty who can tell you exactly where you stand.


So what would DC firms require? The piecharts dont tell the individual's grades who got CBs just a generic piechart of people's grade ranges which doesnt help at all.

Nelson, any thoughts for numerical ranges for firms like A&p, wilmer or jones day?

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Nelson
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Nelson » Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:13 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Nelson wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Nelson wrote:Your grades are your grades. There's nothing you can do about them at this point. And all of the ranking/GPA obsession obscures that fact that most people know roughly where they are and that's enough to guide you to what firms are in your range.


That's definitely true. I think it's most difficult to assess as you approach the top of the curve, which is naturally filled with the type of people who are going to hand-wring above and beyond what is reasonable anyway.

But it's a legitimate question. Is a 3.7 top 10%? Higher, lower? Is that in range for firms like the DC elites/Wachtell/Cravath? I don't think anyone really knows.

My best guess is that Penn's curve is fairly similar to Virginia's, with median lower and the top of the curve a bit higher. Top 10% between 3.70 and 3.75 sounds about right to me.

You can figure out from the pie charts whether you're competitive. It really doesn't matter what percentile you are for firms, there's no firm that is looking at grades with that much granularity. The only thing that those variations in top tier grades matter for is clerkships and if you have the grades for them, there are people on the faculty who can tell you exactly where you stand.


So what would DC firms require? The piecharts dont tell the individual's grades who got CBs just a generic piechart of people's grade ranges which doesnt help at all.

Nelson, any thoughts for numerical ranges for firms like A&p, wilmer or jones day?

The pie charts are aggregates of people who got offers. It's very helpful. Create a pie chart of your grades. Compare. Does your pie look very much unlike the aggregate pie? If so, that's not a good sign. Esp in DC, the firms aren't making very many offers so that chart is like 5-10 people at most. It's a little less useful for the NYC giant firms.

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PennBull
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby PennBull » Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:14 am

Anonymous User wrote:So what would DC firms require? The piecharts dont tell the individual's grades who got CBs just a generic piechart of people's grade ranges which doesnt help at all.

Nelson, any thoughts for numerical ranges for firms like A&p, wilmer or jones day?


They're representative. Do you have grades that look similar to the overall distribution? Higher? Lower? You don't need to know your rank to figure this out

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Nelson
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Nelson » Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:14 am

Also a good rule of thumb for DC is that if you feel like you don't have the grades for DC, you probably should trust your instinct and focus on NYC.




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