Penn OCI

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PennBull
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby PennBull » Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:40 am

Anonymous User wrote:Can we go ahead and send out mailers to the firms we unsuccessfully bid on, or is it appropriate to wait until after the waitlist/cancellation period?

If so, what's a good way to phrase that in a cover letter? Something to the effect of "I unfortunately was not successful in bidding on Smith & Jones through my school's on-campus interview process, but I would still very much appreciate the opportunity to interview with you at your convenience"?


I'd do it now but try and swing a trade first

Also snagging interviews off the schedule is a credited play; show up early before anyone and talk to recruiters attorneys etc

The phrasing is fine

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PennBull
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby PennBull » Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:43 am

Skump wrote:Speak to associates with several years under their belts. You want to talk to someone who's been at a firm long enough to have valuable insights, but not so long as to be utterly removed from the kind of work you will actually be doing (::cough:: partners).

Senior associates are particularly valuable because there is a respectable chance they will end up interviewing you at OCI. This happened several times to me.

Don't bother with summer associates-their firm "experience" has only the most tennuous connection to reality.


Any associate is fine. There's no need to overthink it. You're trying to get information and exhibit genuine interest which can be shown merely because you reached out. Sure summers have a tenuous connection but bringing up a conversation you had with them on a matter they worked on isn't useless

Anonymous User
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:45 am

PennBull wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Can we go ahead and send out mailers to the firms we unsuccessfully bid on, or is it appropriate to wait until after the waitlist/cancellation period?

If so, what's a good way to phrase that in a cover letter? Something to the effect of "I unfortunately was not successful in bidding on Smith & Jones through my school's on-campus interview process, but I would still very much appreciate the opportunity to interview with you at your convenience"?


I'd do it now but try and swing a trade first

Also snagging interviews off the schedule is a credited play; show up early before anyone and talk to recruiters attorneys etc

The phrasing is fine


Ok, thanks. CP&P sent out an email yesterday basically saying swapping will not be allowed this year until after cancellations, and only to accommodate major changes in circumstances, "not to facilitate circumvention of the lottery system." If they're serious, it sucks.

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PennBull
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby PennBull » Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:49 am

Anonymous User wrote:
PennBull wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Can we go ahead and send out mailers to the firms we unsuccessfully bid on, or is it appropriate to wait until after the waitlist/cancellation period?

If so, what's a good way to phrase that in a cover letter? Something to the effect of "I unfortunately was not successful in bidding on Smith & Jones through my school's on-campus interview process, but I would still very much appreciate the opportunity to interview with you at your convenience"?


I'd do it now but try and swing a trade first

Also snagging interviews off the schedule is a credited play; show up early before anyone and talk to recruiters attorneys etc

The phrasing is fine


Ok, thanks. CP&P sent out an email yesterday basically saying swapping will not be allowed this year until after cancellations, and only to accommodate major changes in circumstances, "not to facilitate circumvention of the lottery system." If they're serious, it sucks.


Wait are you fucking serious? That is some bullshit. If I want to trade three interviews for a chance to interview with one of my favorite firms that's our prerogative. Circumventing the lottery system? Nobody's circumventing shit. Two people whose lottery didn't bounce in their favor should be allowed to trade their results with each other

Is there any reason they give for this?

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Nelson
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Nelson » Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:56 am

PennBull wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
PennBull wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Can we go ahead and send out mailers to the firms we unsuccessfully bid on, or is it appropriate to wait until after the waitlist/cancellation period?

If so, what's a good way to phrase that in a cover letter? Something to the effect of "I unfortunately was not successful in bidding on Smith & Jones through my school's on-campus interview process, but I would still very much appreciate the opportunity to interview with you at your convenience"?


I'd do it now but try and swing a trade first

Also snagging interviews off the schedule is a credited play; show up early before anyone and talk to recruiters attorneys etc

The phrasing is fine


Ok, thanks. CP&P sent out an email yesterday basically saying swapping will not be allowed this year until after cancellations, and only to accommodate major changes in circumstances, "not to facilitate circumvention of the lottery system." If they're serious, it sucks.


Wait are you fucking serious? That is some bullshit. If I want to trade three interviews for a chance to interview with one of my favorite firms that's our prerogative. Circumventing the lottery system? Nobody's circumventing shit. Two people whose lottery didn't bounce in their favor should be allowed to trade their results with each other

Is there any reason they give for this?

"We don't feel like swapping all of these interviews around on Symplicity."

Skump
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Skump » Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:59 am

PennBull wrote:
Skump wrote:Speak to associates with several years under their belts. You want to talk to someone who's been at a firm long enough to have valuable insights, but not so long as to be utterly removed from the kind of work you will actually be doing (::cough:: partners).

Senior associates are particularly valuable because there is a respectable chance they will end up interviewing you at OCI. This happened several times to me.

Don't bother with summer associates-their firm "experience" has only the most tennuous connection to reality.


Any associate is fine. There's no need to overthink it. You're trying to get information and exhibit genuine interest which can be shown merely because you reached out. Sure summers have a tenuous connection but bringing up a conversation you had with them on a matter they worked on isn't useless


Or, you know, you could speak to the people doing *actual work* related to what you *actually want to be doing as a professional* who may also *actually end up interviewing you at OCI.* :shock:

If you want to speak to a summer just to get some facts about how the summer program itself works, that's fine. But summers should not be the focus of a LS's pre-OCI networking efforts.

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Nelson
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Nelson » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:02 am

Skump wrote:
PennBull wrote:
Skump wrote:Speak to associates with several years under their belts. You want to talk to someone who's been at a firm long enough to have valuable insights, but not so long as to be utterly removed from the kind of work you will actually be doing (::cough:: partners).

Senior associates are particularly valuable because there is a respectable chance they will end up interviewing you at OCI. This happened several times to me.

Don't bother with summer associates-their firm "experience" has only the most tennuous connection to reality.


Any associate is fine. There's no need to overthink it. You're trying to get information and exhibit genuine interest which can be shown merely because you reached out. Sure summers have a tenuous connection but bringing up a conversation you had with them on a matter they worked on isn't useless


Or, you know, you could speak to the people doing *actual work* related to what you *actually want to be doing as a professional* who may also *actually end up interviewing you at OCI.* :shock:

If you want to speak to a summer just to get some facts about how the summer program itself works, that's fine. But summers should not be the focus of a LS's pre-OCI networking efforts.

Lol if you think associates you don't know personally are giving you anything especially insightful. There's no hidden secret to what it's like to be an attorney at a biglaw firm. PennBull is right, the point is to figure out what the firms talking points are so you can look like you did your homework. People who recently went through hearing what the talking points are are just as useful.

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PennBull
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby PennBull » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:07 am

Or, you know, you can not be an asshole about it

Also I dunno what your summer is like but plenty of summers at least have info on a project they liked or something, it's not useless info and the whole point of asking is, again, to show an interviewer you have interest

I personally wouldn't want to talk to someone who will then be interviewing me but that night be personal preference. I'd rather not risk screwing shit up before the interview even starts and/or be able to reference other conversations

Skump
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Skump » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:09 am

Nelson wrote:Lol if you think associates you don't know personally are giving you anything especially insightful. There's no hidden secret to what it's like to be an attorney at a biglaw firm. PennBull is right, the point is I figure out what the firms talking points are so you can look like you did your homework. People who recently went through hearing what the talking points are are just as useful.


Wut. The attorneys with whom I spoke were able to talk to me about areas of their business that were heating up and cooling down, business trends, nuances of practice areas, how they picked their specialities, etc. Those are useful talking points, i.e., somewhat substantive things to talk about. Did I mention that several of those same people also ended up interviewing me at OCI?

Summers will be parroting claptrap. They don't have any valuable "talking points." Their experiences consist of low priority makework and fancy meals. I know. I've been through it.

philly33
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby philly33 » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:21 am

Skump wrote:
Nelson wrote:Lol if you think associates you don't know personally are giving you anything especially insightful. There's no hidden secret to what it's like to be an attorney at a biglaw firm. PennBull is right, the point is I figure out what the firms talking points are so you can look like you did your homework. People who recently went through hearing what the talking points are are just as useful.


Wut. The attorneys with whom I spoke were able to talk to me about areas of their business that were heating up and cooling down, business trends, nuances of practice areas, how they picked their specialities, etc. Those are useful talking points, i.e., somewhat substantive things to talk about. Did I mention that several of those same people also ended up interviewing me at OCI?

Summers will be parroting claptrap. They don't have any valuable "talking points." Their experiences consist of low priority makework and fancy meals. I know. I've been through it.


That's the point. They'll be telling you what the firm wants to get across. But instead of you being able to say, "I read about your open door policy on your website," you can say, "my friend who SA'd with you really loved your open door policy and that appeals to me." Is it as valuable as insight you'd get from Associates? Of course not. But it's far from useless.

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PennBull
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby PennBull » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:21 am

Dude we've also "been through it" so you can walk back your superiority bullshit

Nobody is contesting a senior associate would have more information. And I've already said my piece that your deal with then interviewing with them later could backfire and thus I wouldn't prefer it. But I'm willing to chalk that up to personal preference

But your deal that summers have zero useful info for the purposes of interviewing is simply wrong. As much as a current associate? No. And nobody is suggesting otherwise. But summers still have a few things they know that would help, and simply show an interviewer you have interest and did some due diligence, which is the whole fucking point.

Skump
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Skump » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:30 am

And this is my point. Here's what you said:

Any associate is fine. There's no need to overthink it.


There are good reasons for a LS to prefer spending the bulk of his networking time talking to people who actually do the work that a prospective associate will do versus people who are paid to eat cookies and attend Yankees games between handling makework.

If you want to reach out to a summer to find out if "s/he liked the summer program," fine. If you want have something substantive to talk about at OCI, speak to actual attorneys who do real work.

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PennBull
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby PennBull » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:34 am

Okay I clearly don't have as firm a grasp on italics as you do so I'll concede the argument

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:49 am

If you have no idea what kind of law you want to do what should you say during OCI?

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:07 pm

Nelson wrote:
PennBull wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
PennBull wrote:I'd do it now but try and swing a trade first

Also snagging interviews off the schedule is a credited play; show up early before anyone and talk to recruiters attorneys etc

The phrasing is fine


Ok, thanks. CP&P sent out an email yesterday basically saying swapping will not be allowed this year until after cancellations, and only to accommodate major changes in circumstances, "not to facilitate circumvention of the lottery system." If they're serious, it sucks.


Wait are you fucking serious? That is some bullshit. If I want to trade three interviews for a chance to interview with one of my favorite firms that's our prerogative. Circumventing the lottery system? Nobody's circumventing shit. Two people whose lottery didn't bounce in their favor should be allowed to trade their results with each other

Is there any reason they give for this?

"We don't feel like swapping all of these interviews around on Symplicity."


That's more or less the impression the email gave. With several bolded and italicized portions. Regardless we won't be allowed to swap for any reason prior to July 28.

Skump
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Skump » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:If you have no idea what kind of law you want to do what should you say during OCI?


First, it's fine not to know. Honestly, few people going into OCI could credibly say that they "know" what kind of law they want to practice (barring some kind of prior substantive work experience of course). Second, from a firm's perpsective, it can even be a good thing if a summer is open to multiple practice areas (more flexibility for all concerned).

Basically, I think the credited response is to speak to people in the know and learn about a couple of positive, distinguishing features of the different practice areas you're tentatively interested in. At OCI, you can then say (quite honestly) that, based on your conversations with practicing professionals, you find A,B,C about (say) lit appealing, and X,Y,Z about transactional appealing, and are excited about (hopefully!) having the chance over the summer to figure out which on balance will be the best fit for you personally. Something like that.*

*Adjust appropriately if speaking to a Lit shop of course, heh. Back when Quinn did OCI, there were always awkward stories every year about people being "so interested" to "explore transactional work" at Quinn...

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PennBull
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby PennBull » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:36 pm

Yeah even though I knew I wanted to do corporate work I told very firm I was open to trying different things

Definitely make sure the office isn't specializing, like omelveny does corporate work but their NYC office was only hiring lit my year.

It's hard to make contact with someone from every firm you're interviewing with, so I recommend checking out the chambers associate profiles and looking at the recent deals/cases that the firm did; they're usually up to date, usually sufficient

run26.2
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby run26.2 » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:07 pm

Nelson wrote:
run26.2 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I've been told to reach out to Penn alums at firms you're interested in. Should we be talking to summer associates or associates? If there are no Penn summers this year is it inappropriate to talk to an associate? What if that associate is one of the interviewers for OCI this year?

-Yak

A summer associate is not a Penn alum. Furthermore, SAs don't have pull and would be useful only as an information source. You should reach out to the attorneys, whether an associate or, more rarely, a partner.

The point is to get information. It's not like junior associates can affect hiring either. IME you'll have a higher response rate from summers (ie the rising 3Ls) than you will from associates and a much higher response rate from associates than partners.

The initial post is confusing. I read it as interested in a firm for which one did not get a screener through OCI. I suppose people bid on firms they're not "interested in," but I recall most people being interested in all the firms they received screeners for. Furthermore, advice to speak to alums is generally related to networking for the purpose of getting into the hiring pipeline.

That said, I see your point. As a counter-point, speaking from personal experience, I know that even cold-calling a relatively junior associate alum can "affect hiring."

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PennBull
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby PennBull » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:10 pm

You should definitely email people first and ask for a chat instead of just cold calling

run26.2
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby run26.2 » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:12 pm

PennBull wrote:You should definitely email people first and ask for a chat instead of just cold calling

Agreed. This is a preferred method for most people.

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Nelson
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Nelson » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:14 pm

Skump wrote:
Nelson wrote:Lol if you think associates you don't know personally are giving you anything especially insightful. There's no hidden secret to what it's like to be an attorney at a biglaw firm. PennBull is right, the point is I figure out what the firms talking points are so you can look like you did your homework. People who recently went through hearing what the talking points are are just as useful.


Wut. The attorneys with whom I spoke were able to talk to me about areas of their business that were heating up and cooling down, business trends, nuances of practice areas, how they picked their specialities, etc. Those are useful talking points, i.e., somewhat substantive things to talk about. Did I mention that several of those same people also ended up interviewing me at OCI?

Summers will be parroting claptrap. They don't have any valuable "talking points." Their experiences consist of low priority makework and fancy meals. I know. I've been through it.

Damn you're sure of yourself for someone who's only been to baseball games and done make work.

Skump
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Skump » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:44 pm

Damn sure that a firm's summer program is not probative of actual practice and that speaking to real associates rather than summers will give you more useful insight into the reality and nuances of the work done by the firm?

Absolutely.

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:49 pm

Skump wrote:Damn sure that a firm's summer program is not probative of actual practice and that speaking to real associates rather than summers will give you more useful insight into the reality and nuances of the work done by the firm?

Absolutely.


TBH right now we don't give much of a shit about the reality and nuances of the work done by the firm. We care about what we need to say to demonstrate interest and an awareness of the firm's self-professed strengths sufficient for screener conversation, which IMLE summers seem perfectly capable of providing.

Skump
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Skump » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:TBH right now we don't give much of a shit about the reality and nuances of the work done by the firm. We care about what we need to say to demonstrate interest and an awareness of the firm's self-professed strengths sufficient for screener conversation, which IMLE summers seem perfectly capable of providing.


ಠ_ಠ

Jeez Louise: You'll have a better awareness of the firm's real strengths (as opposed to vacuous marketing copy; "One Firm!") by speaking to the people who do real work there. Speak to those people - it's no harder than reaching out to anyone else, and a potentially lot more useful. Senior associates will respond, believe me, and substance comes through in interviews.
Last edited by Skump on Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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OutCold
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby OutCold » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:59 pm

Parroting what Pennbull and Nelson have said just to cancel out the static. The only goal is to get ahead in the interview, which means the value to reaching out to someone from the firm is in the act of reaching out itself, not in the information you receive. Figure out what the hell a Financial Institutions Litigation and Regulation group does after you have a job. You just want to talk to one person at as broad a range of firms as possible so that when the inevitable "why this firm?" question comes at the end of your screener, you can say "well, so and so was kind enough to chat with me, and this aspect of the firm is really enticing to me." Literally, it is just about showing that you cared enough about this firm to actually speak to someone at the firm.




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